Unconditional love and the church's approach to homosexuality

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peldom10

Well-known member
May 22, 2020
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.....Further if once saved always saved is biblical......then why does God give us unlimited times of sin forgiveness? Wouldn't once fbe sufficient?
I agree with everything except your last line

Salvation can not be lost. If it can We have conditional life. Not eternal life. and we are saved by works. Not by grace
In view.....please explai the fact that God gives us unli
You forgot one thing

john said we can know we have eternal life....
Yes, providing .......we keep God's commandments ..."until the end".
 

peldom10

Well-known member
May 22, 2020
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Also why does the Lord's prayer include.....forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us....
Also, a prayer strongly suggested as a daily prayer in scriptures.

Also.......lead us not into temptation....

Once we are born again...we must keep God's commandments until the end.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
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.....Further if once saved always saved is biblical......then why does God give us unlimited times of sin forgiveness? Wouldn't once fbe sufficient?


In view.....please explai the fact that God gives us unli


Yes, providing .......we keep God's commandments ..."until the end".
you have all the time while alive to be forgiven and repent, surrender and receive eternal life, yet once you die, you are done.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Ahh this is where we disagree. I believe that God has given us free will and lets us choose. You are suggesting God violates that free will upon Baptism and takes away our choice to walk away if we were so stupid as to want to. Go ask the Muslims, Buddhists, New Agers and Atheists et al how many Christians have swapped ranks and joined with them. What happens to them?

I resolutely believe that God lets us choose our own destiny, even after baptism and one possible destiny is hell if we are so stupid as to squander what God so graciously gives us.



Yes on this point we agree, God baptises a soul with the Holy Spirit too. This is what the water baptism does; it washes away our sin and the stain of the original sin and prepares the way for the Holy Spirit to enter our lives, just like when John Baptised Jesus in the river.

When the spirit enters you, you are changed and if you stay the course, you cannot be unsaved. But again, free will was the greatest gift God gave us. And he will let us exercise it and walk away even at this point. God never takes prisoners. Only Satan does.

What I am alluding to in my argument is the great falling away. Churches around the Western world are falling empty, being shuttered and being sold off to be used for something else. Heck, in my village there are no less than 5 churches. Not a single one of them is open anymore to regular worship. In the next two villages the churches are gone too. The main town nearby has several empty churches. This is all in spite of the fact that population is growing down in this area. What happened to all the people who used to go to these places of worship? I know for a fact they're not all dead because I have met many who have said 'oh yeah, I USED to go to that church, but I dunno, I just stopped going I guess' Where are they going to end up upon death?
I believe God is omniscient, I believe he knew us before we were born, he also knew everything we would do, so he knows who has true faith and who does not

he is not going to give eternal life to people who he knows he will have to take it back because they faith was not real

i also believe we lose faith in people who let us down, since God always shows us his faithfulness when we trust him, not one would every freely chose to repent back to the world losing faith in him.

I believe in free will, I also believe John said they were never of us, if they were they never would have left, they departed in unbelief to prove they were never of us
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
.....Further if once saved always saved is biblical......then why does God give us unlimited times of sin forgiveness? Wouldn't once fbe sufficient?


In view.....please explai the fact that God gives us unli


Yes, providing .......we keep God's commandments ..."until the end".
If sin could again condemn us, then we are under law not under grace

if your under law, you have no hope, because cursed is the one who does not obey every word

good luck my friend, although luck will not help you, you already failed
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Also why does the Lord's prayer include.....forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us....
Also, a prayer strongly suggested as a daily prayer in scriptures.

Also.......lead us not into temptation....

Once we are born again...we must keep God's commandments until the end.
your putting people back under law

no one will meet gods requirement, no one, you already failed we all have
 

Mark47Oz

Active member
Jun 4, 2021
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I believe God is omniscient, I believe he knew us before we were born, he also knew everything we would do, so he knows who has true faith and who does not

he is not going to give eternal life to people who he knows he will have to take it back because they faith was not real

i also believe we lose faith in people who let us down, since God always shows us his faithfulness when we trust him, not one would every freely chose to repent back to the world losing faith in him.

I believe in free will, I also believe John said they were never of us, if they were they never would have left, they departed in unbelief to prove they were never of us
So, in essence we agree 😃

You have a slightly different ways of interpreting it but we have arrived at the same conclusion.
 
Apr 12, 2021
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Also why does the Lord's prayer include.....forgive us of our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us....
Also, a prayer strongly suggested as a daily prayer in scriptures.

Also.......lead us not into temptation....

Once we are born again...we must keep God's commandments until the end.
So you are saying that you believe that God knows in advance who will be saved and not?

If so I am in agreement.
Caveat though is we don't so it's no an excuse to sit back and do nothing.
We talk the talk whilst walking the walk.

Interesting though you say "Might be saved"
I cannot see might in the verse.

What I see is "should not perish or will not perish"
Depending on what Bible you read.
Yes, I should have specified: John 3:17 "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved."
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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Firstly, nobody on this thread is seeking to 'justify' homosexuality or claim that it isn't a sin.

Secondly, what commandments do we have to keep in order to receive salvation?
You said, "...the reason why I am sticking up for homosexuals..."
And, we are to use love to define scripture rather than the reverse?
If you were not advocating homosexuality, then you did not do a good job communicating that thought effectively.
It appears we both misunderstood the other's posts, as I was not talking about salvation but unconditional love.
Let me just say, the two are not the same.
Just as both the love and grace of God are conditional, contingent upon what we do, so also and in like manner, is the forgiveness and salvation of God conditional.
For example, Jesus said, if we do not forgive others, God our Father will not forgive us our trespasses. He said that more than once.
And the word, if, is a conditional conjunction. Meaning, it could go either way, depending on what you do or don't do.
This of course falls in line with scripture that says in Matthew chapter 7 verses 1 and 2, "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what judgment you judge, ye shall be judged, and with what measure you meet, it shall be measured to you again."
And again in verse 12 it is written, "therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them. For this is the law and the prophets."
All that means is, what you do to others, God will do to you.
Matthew 18:7-9 and 21-35 makes that abundantly clear, as does Matthew 5:29-30 and Mark 9: 42-50.
I like to tell a story about a husband and wife who were ordained baptist ministers, turned atheist, because the husband, according to his testimony to me, died three times. And one of those times was dead for an hour and 15 minutes, and all he saw was blackness. So he, along with his wife, denounced Christ as their lord and savior, denounced the Bible as the word of God, and announced that there was a god.
The Bible clearly teaches that those who were mature child of God, and turned from Christ, they cannot be reborn again, according to Hebrews 6:4-8.
However, this does not apply to baby Christians.
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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You said, "...the reason why I am sticking up for homosexuals..."
And, we are to use love to define scripture rather than the reverse?
If you were not advocating homosexuality, then you did not do a good job communicating that thought effectively.
It appears we both misunderstood the other's posts, as I was not talking about salvation but unconditional love.
Let me just say, the two are not the same.
Just as both the love and grace of God are conditional, contingent upon what we do, so also and in like manner, is the forgiveness and salvation of God conditional.
For example, Jesus said, if we do not forgive others, God our Father will not forgive us our trespasses. He said that more than once.
And the word, if, is a conditional conjunction. Meaning, it could go either way, depending on what you do or don't do.
This of course falls in line with scripture that says in Matthew chapter 7 verses 1 and 2, "Judge not lest ye be judged. For with what judgment you judge, ye shall be judged, and with what measure you meet, it shall be measured to you again."
And again in verse 12 it is written, "therefore all things whatsoever you would that men should do to you, do you even so to them. For this is the law and the prophets."
All that means is, what you do to others, God will do to you.
Matthew 18:7-9 and 21-35 makes that abundantly clear, as does Matthew 5:29-30 and Mark 9: 42-50.
I like to tell a story about a husband and wife who were ordained baptist ministers, turned atheist, because the husband, according to his testimony to me, died three times. And one of those times was dead for an hour and 15 minutes, and all he saw was blackness. So he, along with his wife, denounced Christ as their lord and savior, denounced the Bible as the word of God, and announced that there was a god.
The Bible clearly teaches that those who were mature child of God, and turned from Christ, they cannot be reborn again, according to Hebrews 6:4-8.
However, this does not apply to baby Christians.
And Hebrews 10:26-31
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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this deserves its own reply. please supply scripture...not an interpretation of scripture...that indicates Jesus and God only love conditionally

HINT: does the Bible say God is love? or does the Bible say God is conditional love? :unsure:
From what I have read, the Bible says God is love, as you have written. It does not however say, God is conditional love, and neither does it say, God is unconditional love, as you believe him to be.
So the point you raised does not prove a thing.
And as for giving you scripture stating God's conditional love, well, I just gave it to you and you rejected it. At least as far as what the word of God is saying in John 15:10.
And again and Mark 11: 25-26 it is written, and when you stand praying, forgive, if you have ought against any. That's your father which is in heaven May forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your father, which is in heaven, forgive your trespasses."
I would say that falls under, conditional Grace or favor of God.
I asked you, what happens to the soul that is not forgiven when they die?
 

know1

Senior Member
Aug 27, 2012
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have you read beyond the gospels? that will help you to understand salvation, which is NOT something we earn or keep by being good little boys 'n girls

what were Jesus commandments? the 10? better look deeper if you think that. and by the way, Jesus commandments were actually a summation of the 10....which are actually all about love. yeah I know people have a hard time seeing that because we know how bad we are

and how holy are you exactly? 50%? 80? 99? well, you would have to be 100% to be acceptable to God if it actually meant be just like God...so

and you are right. homosexuality is not acceptable but neither is any other sin. so there's that :cautious:



well is it working? better read the thread if you think so. besides, most of the church is not on this forum

looking forward to your replies :giggle:
You apparently know a lot more than I do, seeing you are not only the half-baked ditzy flake telling me, my wife has been lying to me for 32 years now, concerning her dreaming Jesus playing with her when she was a child, because it's not scriptural, which I'd like to know what scripture you're referring to, but you've also tried telling me, I don't know what I'm talking about, and you somehow know better than I do.
I suppose we'll find out who knows what God not only said, but also what He meant, if this dialogue continues.
And thanks for that grade school lesson on the ten commandments. It was ever so enlightening.

According to the word of god, I am as Jesus is in me in this world.
So if Jesus is 50% holy then I guess I am 50% holy as well.
And as for sins in general versus homosexuality, don't you know, some sins are worse than others? There are some sins unto death and there are some that are not. At least according to the few verses I read beyond the Gospels.
And I asked you, what is the purpose of God putting His Spirit in the children of God?
Isn't it to empower the children of God to fulfill the law, among other things?
 
Apr 12, 2021
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this deserves its own reply. please supply scripture...not an interpretation of scripture...that indicates Jesus and God only love conditionally

HINT: does the Bible say God is love? or does the Bible say God is conditional love? :unsure:
God's love is both conditional and unconditional.

Unconditional in that God created the world and everything in it for His purposes. We did not earn it or deserve it, but God gave us dominion over all. God provides us shelter, food, clothing, company of others, all because God purposed it that way.

Condition in that if we want to enjoy life eternally with God in His heavenly kingdom, we must put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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God's love is both conditional and unconditional.

Unconditional in that God created the world and everything in it for His purposes. We did not earn it or deserve it, but God gave us dominion over all. God provides us shelter, food, clothing, company of others, all because God purposed it that way.

Condition in that if we want to enjoy life eternally with God in His heavenly kingdom, we must put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone.
https://allongeorgia.com/georgia-op...gods-love-conditional-or-is-it-unconditional/

Did you get it from the above or another website?
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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This bit

First, if there were any conditions to God’s love, we couldn’t fulfill those conditions because we’re sinful (Romans 3:23). So God’s providence in giving us the things we need to live like food and shelter and all the good things of life on earth, even though we’ve done nothing to deserve them, is a manifestation of God’s unconditional love toward His creation.
In the link
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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God's love is both conditional and unconditional.

Unconditional in that God created the world and everything in it for His purposes. We did not earn it or deserve it, but God gave us dominion over all. God provides us shelter, food, clothing, company of others, all because God purposed it that way.

Condition in that if we want to enjoy life eternally with God in His heavenly kingdom, we must put our faith and trust in Jesus Christ alone.
That sounds more like salvation is conditional.

Whereas God loved us long before we ever responded to His call.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
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From my Book and my brain.
Ok.

So basically you got it from my book?
Yes you say therefore you did not get it from your brain.
Unless of course you wrote the book from your brain.
If so where did your brain learn this from?
 

SophieT

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2020
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From what I have read, the Bible says God is love, as you have written. It does not however say, God is conditional love, and neither does it say, God is unconditional love, as you believe him to be.
So the point you raised does not prove a thing.
And as for giving you scripture stating God's conditional love, well, I just gave it to you and you rejected it. At least as far as what the word of God is saying in John 15:10.
And again and Mark 11: 25-26 it is written, and when you stand praying, forgive, if you have ought against any. That's your father which is in heaven May forgive you your trespasses. But if you do not forgive, neither will your father, which is in heaven, forgive your trespasses."
I would say that falls under, conditional Grace or favor of God.
I asked you, what happens to the soul that is not forgiven when they die?
you posted that God's love is conditional and that it is reserved for the 'elect'. yet, the Bible says God sent His Son to die for all, so obviously His love is for all.

Scripture states that God is love.

7 Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us. I John 4

there are no 'conditions' to be met there. there are conditions for salvation but none for God's love. when a person accepts Christ, God does not suddenly decide to love them. He loved them so He sent His Son for all.