Understanding God’s election

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Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Death is defined in various ways in the Bible.
Such as Abraham being almost 100 years old was said to be sexually dead.
Indeed. That's the point. The idea that death only means separation is false.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,738
441
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No, you are on the sinking sand of proof-texting a problematic interpretation and being unwilling to connect the dots between Scripture teaching God's universal love and His wanting all people to be saved, so YOU need to fret about your limiting God to having a demonic nature!

However, if you really do want me to share again how to connect those dots, I will be glad to cite the Scriptures again next post that need to be plugged into your hermeneutic rather than sawed off. Remember, I used to be a OSAS Baptist who had to change my view also after learning more of GW.
Before connecting the dots, let us have a look at the Scripture you posted.

Matt 11:27, "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Notice that Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.

John 17:-9, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." Notice that Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.

No universal prayer in this passage! Yes, there is--with the interpretation harmonized with JN 3:16 & 1TM 2:3-4, "God loved the world so much that He gave it His only Son to be sacrificed in order that all people might be saved."

Yes, one would think that if the Father universally draws all men to his Son by means of being lifted up on the cross, that the Father would reveal the gospel truth to each and every person in the world, and Paul teaches that God does this in three ways,

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Regarding Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'" Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).

Notice that Jesus did not say God hid the Gospel from the majority of people so that they would have no opportunity to believe and become elect or saved from damnation in hell because He hated their guts.

Ditto re Luke 10:21, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." This means merely that the Gospel/salvation is available to all and not that it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to thread that needle.

Yes, God is free to be demonic, but He has determined that hating is evil.
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
857
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What examples could unfallen Adam be shown to know what spiritual death is???
According to Calvinism.....billions and trillions? Didn't ya know God predestined spiritual death for the majority before the foundation of the world?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
20,038
6,859
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According to Calvinism.....billions and trillions? Didn't ya know God predestined spiritual death for the majority before the foundation of the world?
Only those who oppose Calvinism openly make the claim that the majority of people are predestined to death. Calvin said neither. He believed heaven would be populated by a number no man can number and that men, not God, fitted themselves for destruction.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,350
520
113
I agree. However, in Calvin's institutes "tulip" is taught. Beza unscrambled the false theology and streamlined it for the suckers.
Where?
Did Calvin actually say that God forces men to believe by giving them their belief?
Or, did Calvin simply state that man found in his fallen state can not know God?
Did Calvin actually say that God must force our belief upon us?
The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying:
“Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love;
Therefore, with loving kindness, I have drawn you." Jeremiah 31:3​
That does not sound like being forcibly dragged to me!

"Therefore, with loving kindness I have drawn you."

..............
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
3,350
520
113
According to Calvinism.....billions and trillions? Didn't ya know God predestined spiritual death for the majority before the foundation of the world?
That's easy. God simply predestined that all men would be born.
Born of a human father and mother.
All, except Jesus.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
1,738
441
83
Rufus, Before connecting the dots, let us have a look at the Scripture you posted.

Matt 11:27, "All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him." Notice that Jesus does not say that he wants to reveal the Father only to a few and condemn the majority to hell.

John 17:-9, "I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours." Notice that Jesus does not say that God desires to give Jesus only a few and condemn the majority to hell.

No universal prayer in this passage! Yes, there is--with the interpretation harmonized with JN 3:16 & 1TM 2:3-4, "God loved the world so much that He gave it His only Son to be sacrificed in order that all people might be saved."

Yes, one would think that if the Father universally draws all men to his Son by means of being lifted up on the cross, that the Father would reveal the gospel truth to each and every person in the world, and Paul teaches that God does this in three ways,

1. general revelation, which includes meditating on the natural world or God’s supernatural work. Paul says men are without excuse, both because God’s eternal power and divine nature (love) are manifested by creation (RM 1:20), and because a proto- or provisional-gospel has been proclaimed to everyone under heaven implicitly or in pre-NT foreshadowings (CL 1:23, RM 10:13-18, GL 3:8).

2. the inner conscience, a natural or “common” sense (RM 2:14-16), which manifests morality or a moral Authority in every culture; and

3. special revelation (1PT 1:8-12), which refers to the biblical and especially NT teaching regarding God’s history of salvation. Again, the Parable of the Talents indicates that souls are saved via faith in God/ Christ as revealed (cf. 1CR 10:1-5). Truthseekers around the world in all times are pilgrims at various places along the road of life, and all true roads eventually lead to the Way to eternal life in heaven (JN 14:6, ACTS 24:14, PHP 2:10-11). All truth leads to One Way.

Regarding Luke 8:10, To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of God, but for others they are in parables, so that 'seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.'" Both Jesus and Paul teach that the reason folks do not understand is because their hearts are hardened or callous (MT 13:14-15, ACTS 28:26-27).

Notice that Jesus did not say God hid the Gospel from the majority of people so that they would have no opportunity to believe and become elect or saved from damnation in hell because He hated their guts.

Ditto re Luke 10:21, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure." This means merely that the Gospel/salvation is available to all and not that it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich to thread that needle.

Yes, God is free to be demonic, but He has determined that hating is evil.
Oops, I meant "...salvation is available to all and that it may be hard for the educated as well as the rich...".
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
3,371
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That flesh was provided for by means of Mary's ovum!
The 'seed' of the woman! (Genesis 3:15)


Therefore, when Christ came into the world, he said:
“Sacrifice and offering you did not desire,
but a body you prepared for me."
Hebrews 10:5​
His flesh had to be fully human to qualify to die in our place!
That's what I said, 'the Word became flesh'.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
6,328
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Poor John Calvin!
He never concocted TULIP, yet gets blamed for it.

Calvin had disciples who concocted TULIP after the death of Calvin.
The false doctrine was heralded in under the respected name of John Calvin.

Who's to blame?
Theodore Beza was the deep state of Calvin's ministry!

.......
I am sure if I stated Bezanism it just would not be the same!;)

I do not feel bad for John Calvin being associated with this system, there is enough in his writing to justify it.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I think it paints a perverse picture of reality. All men sin because they inherit a dead spiritual nature, ie separated from God, which prevents them from having perfect knowledge of God's will, therefore they sin. It says that men sin because spiritual death entered the world, not because of deformed DNA, which is a consequence, not the main cause, of generations of sin

On account of this as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death, thus to all men death passed, upon which all sinned. Romans 5:12
The offspring of Adam die anyway regardless of their level of sin.

Babies die and I don't think they have sinned.

Death is a federal judgement on all mankind.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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That's easy. God simply predestined that all men would be born.
Born of a human father and mother.
All, except Jesus.
Soon AI will print a new batch of DNA and we won't need genetics from our parents.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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A curse? Even God himself worked to create all that is he labored and rested are we any better? work was embedded into us when he made us the human body is a prime example your body never grows stronger unless you put in work to tear and rebuild the muscles.

You hate working that much? why?
Because I did two jobs; removals and brick laying.

I keep telling everyone that work is a curse.

70% of people hate their line of work.

Your probably in that small group that love their work.