You are the one who is claiming that the saints are NOT in Heaven. But Hebrews 12:22-24 clearly shows that the souls and spirits of ALL the saints (OT & NT) are in the New Jerusalem, which is in Heaven (and they are very much alive in Heaven). I have said absolutely nothing about the return of Christ and the resurrection of the saints. When they are resurrected, the Lord will bring their souls and spirits and join them to their resurrection bodies and then all the glorified saints will return with Him to Heaven.
Understanding the End of Days
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I thought to help with a few points.
1. The covenant at the time of the end that is referred to in Daniel is not a peace treaty.
The covenant being referred to is the confirming of the covenant of the law of Moses.
The nation of Israel is in unbelief and has rejected the new covenant (the new testament) that Jesus, as the only mediator beteeen God and man, confirmed for us, by his death, burial and resurrection.
The confirming of the Old Testament with Israel is required so as to deceive the nation of Israel, the unwise saints and the whole world.
1. The covenant at the time of the end that is referred to in Daniel is not a peace treaty.
The covenant being referred to is the confirming of the covenant of the law of Moses.
The nation of Israel is in unbelief and has rejected the new covenant (the new testament) that Jesus, as the only mediator beteeen God and man, confirmed for us, by his death, burial and resurrection.
The confirming of the Old Testament with Israel is required so as to deceive the nation of Israel, the unwise saints and the whole world.
3. Satan's plan is to prevent the lawful coming of Jesus Christ as per Jesus' promise to the whole house of Israel given when he last stood and spoke in the temple.
That is, when Jesus said, I leave your house unto you desolate, for you will no see me you say blessed is he that cometh in name of the LORD.
That is, when Jesus said, I leave your house unto you desolate, for you will no see me you say blessed is he that cometh in name of the LORD.
The sign to look for now is the sign of the white horse and its rider.
When that sign appears then all things prophesied of the time of the end will be fulfilled in "short" order.
That sign is as follows.
The white horse is the false peace and safety movement of masses of heathens world wide that support the rider.
The horse is white because it corresponds to the false righteousness of the unbelieving heathen of the earth.
The white horse rider is given his crown because he doesn't earn it, and is given it by Satan as a usurper.
The white horse rider seen having a bow but nit arrows.
That is because the bow represents the power to make war with arrows.
The arrows are not seen because the policy of the rider of the white horse shall be DISARMAMENT.
The arrows of the time of the end are NUCLEAR MISSLES.
By the policy of disarmament the white horse rider shall conquer the earth and subject its inhabitants to GLOBAL GOVERNANCE.
Once the global goverment is established then a coup will occur by which means the vile king shall obtain the opprotunity to stand without election.
Then the TYRANT will be found to have the only nuclear weapons left on earth.
He will then consolidate his power by using his arrows to uproot three kingdoms, leaving himself as the eigth king.
When that sign appears then all things prophesied of the time of the end will be fulfilled in "short" order.
That sign is as follows.
The white horse is the false peace and safety movement of masses of heathens world wide that support the rider.
The horse is white because it corresponds to the false righteousness of the unbelieving heathen of the earth.
The white horse rider is given his crown because he doesn't earn it, and is given it by Satan as a usurper.
The white horse rider seen having a bow but nit arrows.
That is because the bow represents the power to make war with arrows.
The arrows are not seen because the policy of the rider of the white horse shall be DISARMAMENT.
The arrows of the time of the end are NUCLEAR MISSLES.
By the policy of disarmament the white horse rider shall conquer the earth and subject its inhabitants to GLOBAL GOVERNANCE.
Once the global goverment is established then a coup will occur by which means the vile king shall obtain the opprotunity to stand without election.
Then the TYRANT will be found to have the only nuclear weapons left on earth.
He will then consolidate his power by using his arrows to uproot three kingdoms, leaving himself as the eigth king.
E
Thank you for your reply.
You and I agree on some points, but I believe you present some things as fact that simply cannot be proven with Scripture.
I see you interpreting Scripture to mean one thing when it clearly states another.
I know and understand that their is symbolism, but when a clear statement is made I do not call it symbolism so as to prove my point. I believe you do.
As for as me not listening to you, I can say the same about you when I point out what I see as you misunderstanding Scripture.
I still do not believe your identifying of the 144,000 as the male child because you still have not provided Scripture.
Here is where you and I are so different------
I will freely admit I may be mistaken about what I believe while you will not. You demand to be believed. You refuse to discuss. You belittle those who disagree with you and suggest they have not studied or are just to stupid to understand.
No one, let me repeat, no one can say with certainty when or what is exactly is going to unfold.
Yet you insist that you do.
I sincerely hope God will open your eyes and you will see your faults.
You and I agree on some points, but I believe you present some things as fact that simply cannot be proven with Scripture.
I see you interpreting Scripture to mean one thing when it clearly states another.
I know and understand that their is symbolism, but when a clear statement is made I do not call it symbolism so as to prove my point. I believe you do.
As for as me not listening to you, I can say the same about you when I point out what I see as you misunderstanding Scripture.
I still do not believe your identifying of the 144,000 as the male child because you still have not provided Scripture.
Here is where you and I are so different------
I will freely admit I may be mistaken about what I believe while you will not. You demand to be believed. You refuse to discuss. You belittle those who disagree with you and suggest they have not studied or are just to stupid to understand.
No one, let me repeat, no one can say with certainty when or what is exactly is going to unfold.
Yet you insist that you do.
I sincerely hope God will open your eyes and you will see your faults.
E
Thanks again for your response.
Because you believe the seven churches in Asia that John addresses Rev, to is the body of Jesus does not make it so.
You see this as symbolic while I see it as literal. I see no reason to not take it literal unless I am trying to prove a belief.
As long as you state what you say as a personal belief (opinion) I have no issue with that, but when you state it as fact without providing Scripture that clearly state it as fact, Than I must object.
When you state that the "rapture of the Church" takes place before the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of begins, you must be ready to explain with Scripture proof who the tribulation Saints are and where they came from.
You must also be ready to explain with Scripture proof why they suffer the wrath of God (Jesus called it Great tribulation, not wrath) while those previously "raptured" escape it.
Because you believe the seven churches in Asia that John addresses Rev, to is the body of Jesus does not make it so.
You see this as symbolic while I see it as literal. I see no reason to not take it literal unless I am trying to prove a belief.
As long as you state what you say as a personal belief (opinion) I have no issue with that, but when you state it as fact without providing Scripture that clearly state it as fact, Than I must object.
When you state that the "rapture of the Church" takes place before the great tribulation that Jesus spoke of begins, you must be ready to explain with Scripture proof who the tribulation Saints are and where they came from.
You must also be ready to explain with Scripture proof why they suffer the wrath of God (Jesus called it Great tribulation, not wrath) while those previously "raptured" escape it.
Compare the reaping of the earth as described in the Revalation, with what Jesus tells us about the reaping by angels and you can understand when the dead in Christ shall rise.
For there occurs the reaping of the wheat into barns amid threshing while there will also occur the gathering of the grapes of wrath into the great winepress of God's for Christ to tread at his coming.
The great harvest time of God at the end of the world is the time of the great tribulation.
Even the beheading in great numbers is as the mowing down of the field at harvest time.
Jesus said, The field is the world.
We saints are workers in the field. The wise saints saving souls by iunderstanding what God has told us.
Prophecy is our practical knowledge of what to do in the time of the end that is immediately ahead of us all, ready or not.
For there occurs the reaping of the wheat into barns amid threshing while there will also occur the gathering of the grapes of wrath into the great winepress of God's for Christ to tread at his coming.
The great harvest time of God at the end of the world is the time of the great tribulation.
Even the beheading in great numbers is as the mowing down of the field at harvest time.
Jesus said, The field is the world.
We saints are workers in the field. The wise saints saving souls by iunderstanding what God has told us.
Prophecy is our practical knowledge of what to do in the time of the end that is immediately ahead of us all, ready or not.
The reason Jesus commands us to watch and pray to be ready for his coming, while at the same time telling us that no man knows the day nor the hour of his coming, is because we journey as travelers down a road (or as a highway in these fast times) on a journey, and instead of having been told by God "when we shall arrive" we were told what "signs we shall see" as we approach the end of our journey.
The desolation Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24 is a direct reference to the desolation of the temple that occurred when Jesus left it empty of his person in Matthew 23.
And the coming of Jesus is predicted by Jesus, to not occur until the nation of Israel calls upon the name of Jesus as he that cometh in his Father's name, as a nation.
The nation of Israel at that time will be the REMNANT born out of the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE.
The time of Jacob's trouble occurs in sync with the time of the great tribulation of the saints.
Two perspectives of the same war of desolations until the comsummation.
It is the same desolation that 40 years later caused the desolation of the land of Israel until the time of the end.
It is that desolation that Satan seeks to globalize, the globaluzation of the desolation of the temple men's hearts.
Which desolation is REPROBATION. That is, the heart of a rebrobate, which is by force of nature become, a beast.
For if Satan can remove faith from all on earth, then the nation of Israel can't call on Jesus Christ, as Jesus commands them to do for him to return.
Jesus said, I leave your house unto you desolate.
Henceforth, you will mot see me again until you say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
And the coming of Jesus is predicted by Jesus, to not occur until the nation of Israel calls upon the name of Jesus as he that cometh in his Father's name, as a nation.
The nation of Israel at that time will be the REMNANT born out of the TIME OF JACOBS TROUBLE.
The time of Jacob's trouble occurs in sync with the time of the great tribulation of the saints.
Two perspectives of the same war of desolations until the comsummation.
It is the same desolation that 40 years later caused the desolation of the land of Israel until the time of the end.
It is that desolation that Satan seeks to globalize, the globaluzation of the desolation of the temple men's hearts.
Which desolation is REPROBATION. That is, the heart of a rebrobate, which is by force of nature become, a beast.
For if Satan can remove faith from all on earth, then the nation of Israel can't call on Jesus Christ, as Jesus commands them to do for him to return.
Jesus said, I leave your house unto you desolate.
Henceforth, you will mot see me again until you say blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Greetings Joseppi,
The generation that Jesus referred to was the one where all of those signs take place. That said, none of those signs have yet taken place. Also, it would be grammatically incorrect to interpret "this generation" as referring to Christ's generation because the formula is as follows:
Fig tree and all the trees blossoming = Summer is near
When you see all these signs happening = The return of the Lord and the end of the age
By identifying "this generation" as being the one that Jesus was speaking from, you force those signs in his generation and that without any fulfillment. It also would take away the need for the signs. For example, Matt.24:29-31 is speaking of the same event in Rev.19:11-21.
That said, when is it recorded that Jesus returned to the earth to end the age with the church following him out of heaven riding on white horses.
When have we seen all nations gathered at Armageddon take place?
When have we seen the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place?
When did the beast and the false prophet appear?
When was the beast and false prophet captured and thrown into the lake of fire?
When did we see Satan thrown into and restricted in the Abyss?
When did that angel gather all the birds of the air to eat the flesh of all those killed by the double-edged sword?
When did the world see Jesus arriving on the clouds and send his angels out to gather the weeds and the wheat?
That answer is that none of the above has yet taken place. The end of the age is when Christ returns to the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom and rules from Jerusalem form the throne of king David. This has also not taken place. Here is the paraphrased version of the verse you provided:
Truly I tell you, this generation (the one where those signs take place) will not pass away until all those signs have been fulfilled.
The generation that Jesus referred to was the one where all of those signs take place. That said, none of those signs have yet taken place. Also, it would be grammatically incorrect to interpret "this generation" as referring to Christ's generation because the formula is as follows:
Fig tree and all the trees blossoming = Summer is near
When you see all these signs happening = The return of the Lord and the end of the age
By identifying "this generation" as being the one that Jesus was speaking from, you force those signs in his generation and that without any fulfillment. It also would take away the need for the signs. For example, Matt.24:29-31 is speaking of the same event in Rev.19:11-21.
That said, when is it recorded that Jesus returned to the earth to end the age with the church following him out of heaven riding on white horses.
When have we seen all nations gathered at Armageddon take place?
When have we seen the wrath of God via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments take place?
When did the beast and the false prophet appear?
When was the beast and false prophet captured and thrown into the lake of fire?
When did we see Satan thrown into and restricted in the Abyss?
When did that angel gather all the birds of the air to eat the flesh of all those killed by the double-edged sword?
When did the world see Jesus arriving on the clouds and send his angels out to gather the weeds and the wheat?
That answer is that none of the above has yet taken place. The end of the age is when Christ returns to the earth and establishes his millennial kingdom and rules from Jerusalem form the throne of king David. This has also not taken place. Here is the paraphrased version of the verse you provided:
Truly I tell you, this generation (the one where those signs take place) will not pass away until all those signs have been fulfilled.
The desolation has not yet taken place, but will take place as a result of the abomination that will be set up by the anichrist in the middle of that last seven years and which is what causes Israel to flee which is what the desolation is referring to. The desolation is synonymous with the woman/Israel fleeing out into the desert to that place that God will have prepared for her and where she will be cared for during that last 3 1/2 until Christ returns to end the age as described in Rev.12:6, 14. These are all future events.
There is another way to interpret "this generation" which is "this race" or "this family" -- "used especially of the Jewish race living at one and the same period". In other words, the Jews must be on earth as a nation until all is fulfilled. This may have appeared impossible before 1948, but not any more. God will gather all the Jews from around the world and bring them to the land of Israel for their final conversion after the second coming of Christ.
Strong's Concordance
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation
Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά
2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
Strong's Concordance
genea: race, family, generation
Original Word: γενεά, ᾶς, ἡPart of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: genea
Phonetic Spelling: (ghen-eh-ah')
Short Definition: a generation
Definition: a generation; if repeated twice or with another time word, practically indicates infinity of time
Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 1074: γενεά
2. passively, that which has been begotten, men of the same stock, a family;
Hi, Ahwatukee,
I didn't say that "this generation" refers back to when Jesus ministered on earth, nor did I say it refers to any future generation.
It refers to the body of Christ.
The word "this" refers to a generation that exists not one that doesn't yet exist. A generation not yet existing would've been referred to as "that" generation. (yet to come)
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
The above quote of Jesus, is referring to his generation, the body of Christ, the church.
This forces the understanding that the church remains present on earth until all the signs given are seen.
Thus the secret rapture doctrine is false.
The parable of the fig tree is not a parable of the church nor of any generation.
It is the parable that teaches that when the church sees the signs then the believers know the time of the end is near.
Your concerns as to what and when various signs come to pass are met by observing the signs when they do appear.
I didn't say that "this generation" refers back to when Jesus ministered on earth, nor did I say it refers to any future generation.
It refers to the body of Christ.
The word "this" refers to a generation that exists not one that doesn't yet exist. A generation not yet existing would've been referred to as "that" generation. (yet to come)
"Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled."
The above quote of Jesus, is referring to his generation, the body of Christ, the church.
This forces the understanding that the church remains present on earth until all the signs given are seen.
Thus the secret rapture doctrine is false.
The parable of the fig tree is not a parable of the church nor of any generation.
It is the parable that teaches that when the church sees the signs then the believers know the time of the end is near.
Your concerns as to what and when various signs come to pass are met by observing the signs when they do appear.
I disagree that your one interpretation of one scripture makes null and void the entire Bibles teaching about being raised from the dead. I reeks of the false preaching that we are all born with immortality.
Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
You seem to be promoting the catholic doctrine that we all go to heaven as soon as we die. I'm not a catholic, so I follow the Bibles teaching on this.
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I don't believe the preaching that we all go to heaven until the Great throne Judgment, then are either brought back to heaven, or cast into the lake of fire. Abraham is dead, his name is written in the Book of Life, so he will be raised, judged and given immortality, while those who are not written in the Book will be raised, judged and destroyed, forever.
Hebrews 12 doesn't contradict this Biblical teaching.
Heb. 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.
You seem to be promoting the catholic doctrine that we all go to heaven as soon as we die. I'm not a catholic, so I follow the Bibles teaching on this.
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.
Rev. 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
I don't believe the preaching that we all go to heaven until the Great throne Judgment, then are either brought back to heaven, or cast into the lake of fire. Abraham is dead, his name is written in the Book of Life, so he will be raised, judged and given immortality, while those who are not written in the Book will be raised, judged and destroyed, forever.
Hebrews 12 doesn't contradict this Biblical teaching.
Awatukee,
Concerning desolation.
Jesus said, Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matthew 23:38
That is when the desolation began.
Note the temple of God, which Jesus said had become "a den of thieves" and not a "house of prayer" became "your house".
A DESOLATE HOUSE.
It was when Jesus left their house desolate, that the disciples asked their prophecy questions in Matthew 24.
What Jesus said was difficult for the disciples to hear.
Their misunderstandings were great.
If you don't mind I'll show you a thing.
Moses predicted Jesus would come and referred to him as The Prophet.
As the prophet predicting events far off in the future, Jesus was required to prove himself "that prophet" that Moses predicted would come.
To do this Jesus had to give a prophecy that wasn't far off, so as to show his perfect ability to prophesy and be trusted in his more distant prophecies.
Jesus fulfilled this requirement by predicting that, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shallnot be thrown down."
And in 40 years that prediction was fulfilled.
Thus the Israelites had, and have, no excuse for them not believing Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
The desolation that began when Israel as a nation stood in the den of thieves and rejected Jesus as the Christ, led directly to the desolation of the land, and the dispersion of the people of that nation.
They have been enduring the days of vengeance ever since they chose to be reprobates without Christ Jesus.
It is that desolation that Sayan desires to globalize at the time of the end.
To do so, Satan will introduce an abomination that shall bring the whole world into idolatry.
The worship of the beast.
Concerning desolation.
Jesus said, Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Matthew 23:38
That is when the desolation began.
Note the temple of God, which Jesus said had become "a den of thieves" and not a "house of prayer" became "your house".
A DESOLATE HOUSE.
It was when Jesus left their house desolate, that the disciples asked their prophecy questions in Matthew 24.
What Jesus said was difficult for the disciples to hear.
Their misunderstandings were great.
If you don't mind I'll show you a thing.
Moses predicted Jesus would come and referred to him as The Prophet.
As the prophet predicting events far off in the future, Jesus was required to prove himself "that prophet" that Moses predicted would come.
To do this Jesus had to give a prophecy that wasn't far off, so as to show his perfect ability to prophesy and be trusted in his more distant prophecies.
Jesus fulfilled this requirement by predicting that, "There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shallnot be thrown down."
And in 40 years that prediction was fulfilled.
Thus the Israelites had, and have, no excuse for them not believing Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
The desolation that began when Israel as a nation stood in the den of thieves and rejected Jesus as the Christ, led directly to the desolation of the land, and the dispersion of the people of that nation.
They have been enduring the days of vengeance ever since they chose to be reprobates without Christ Jesus.
It is that desolation that Sayan desires to globalize at the time of the end.
To do so, Satan will introduce an abomination that shall bring the whole world into idolatry.
The worship of the beast.