Understanding the End of Days

[tanakh]

I'm not entirely convinced there will be a pre-trib rapture but I have never had the impression that pre-tribbers teach you MUST believe in that specific doctrine in order to be caught up.

They don't normally come straight out with it but if you study their beliefs on this and the other teachings surrounding the rapture its the only conclusion you can come to. There is a song that was popular among Pre Tribbers back in the 1970s called I wish that Id been ready. One verse is as follows:

The Father spoke
The Demons dined
The Son has come
And youve been left behind

The song sums up the attitude towards those who are not Pre Tribbers.

Nehemiah 6 who my reply was directed to mentions Antagonism towards those who believe this teaching and cites it as a possible confirmation that its true. The thinking behind that is that this is the only correct and true interpretation of Scripture, and anyone who doesn't believe it can't be truly Christian. This is a cultic way of thinking.That's where the difference lies between us. Any antagonism I have is against the teaching not the people who believe it. Out of the various interpretations Dispensationalism of which the Pre Trib teaching is part is the only one that casts doubt on another believers salvation.

 

[Joseppi]

As if I'm wise on my own accord.

If any man lack wisdom then ask Jesus for it.
Thereby, we have no excuse for failing to get wisdom and knowledge as the Lord commands us to do.
The idea no one knows what is going on and to be expected in these last days is of Satan.
The wise know the wisdom the Lord gives them is true.

 

[louis]

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even till the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And he said, Go your way, Daniel: for the words are closed and sealed till the time of the end.

None of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Daniel 12

These scriptures reveal when the time of the end has come, that at that time the wise shall know and understand perfectly what the truth is in those times.
By these scriptures I know that the time of the end has come and that nothing forbids our understanding of the end of days prophecies. As it is now when the knowledge is authorized to be given to all who have faith in Jesus and are wise.

Are you wise?

The time of increased understanding in Daniel 12 appears in Daniel 11:32-35, when the faithful are going through great tribulation.

Daniel 11:32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.33 And they that understand among the people shall instruct many: yet they shall fall by the sword, and by flame, by captivity, and by spoil, many days.
34 Now when they shall fall, they shall be holpen with a little help: but many shall cleave to them with flatteries.
35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

 

[louis]

For those of you who believe you are going to be raptured before any great tribulation, does not your perspective deny scripture which declares that we are all appointed once to die?

Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

 

[OMEGA777]

I believe that Jesus will Rapture the Church up to the New Jerusalem at MID TRIB

Joh 14:2 In my Father’s house are many mansions:
I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself;
that where I am, there ye may be also.

Re 12:6 And the woman fled where she hath a place prepared of God,
a thousand two hundred and threescore days.


Re 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into her place,
for a time, and times, and half a time,

 

[OMEGA777]

NEXT 7 YEARS

1. In 2018 they move the Capital to Jerusalem = Mideast War - Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, attack Israel.
2. Israel Conquers Territory and gets the Promised Land back with OIL FIELDS.
3. Peace Treaty for 7 years - Pope brokers Mosaic Temple Project and Temple Built.
4. 31/2 years later Pope stops sacrifices and Man of Sin attacks Jerusalem and captures JEWISH SECTION.
5. Two Witnesses start Preaching until Christmas 2024 and are Resurrected.
6. Nibiru comes by on its way out of our Solar System and its Magnetic Poles pull on our South Pole and cause a POLE SHIFT.
7. Government Politicians go into Underground Bunkers but Ocean Waters go into their bunkers and are driven out.
8. JESUS ARRIVES WITH HIS ANGELS .

 

[Waggles]

So much fanciful speculation, and pretty well all of it wrong.
Jesuit propaganda taking the heat off Rome.

"Nibiru comes by on its way out of our Solar System and its Magnetic Poles

pull on our South Pole and cause a POLE SHIFT."

​

Only a YouTube generation would believe and promote this
rubbish.

 

[Bladerunner]

My main objection to the Pre Tribulation Rapture belief is the 'Left Behind' hype that goes with it.. The bible clearly teaches that the wrath of God is aimed at none believers but many Pre Tribbers appear to believe that this refers not just to the wicked but to NONE BELIEVERS OF THE PRE TRIBULATION RAPTURE in short if you dont believe it you will be condemned. Salvation through the belief in the finished work of Christ is thrown aside. Instead we are told we need to 'Be Ready'. What are we meant to be ready for? As its believed that Christ could return at any second I can only assume that we have to change our views and become Pre Trib or else we get left behind. We are presented with this exclusive group of super saints similar to the JWs 144000.

Hello Tanakh...it has been awhile...... If that is your only objection to the PRE-Trib Rapture, WOW! lol

The wrath of GOD during this time period (Daniel's 70th week or Jacob's Trouble) has two goals.
One; is to remove un-believers from this earth especially those that take the mark of the Beast.
Two; is to bring the nation of Israel to it knees or to a point where the survivors (remnant) recognize Jesus as their Messiah.

Your concern about the pre-tribbers beliefs is touching. Is this what you are going to tell God why you did not believe??????/

Paul, whose ministry we are under and have been for 2000 years, tells us in 1 Cor 15:1-4 that we are to believe that Jesus Christ was crucified, was buried and was resurrected according to scripture. If one believes in this scripture, their sins are washed away with the Blood of Christ and they receive the Holy Spirit to Help them change their lives to a true Christian life.

Having said that, I am a Pre-trib Rapture person and have several friends on this forum that believe the Rapture will be mid-trib, post -trib or pre-wrath. Aside from this belief, they believe in 1 Cor 15:1-4. Are they what Jesus was referring to when he gave the story of the Ten Virgins. Five of which were foolish, did not have enough oil and had to leave to get more. Thus they were not watching (apostasy)and were left behind because of that?

Jesus tells us many times that I am sure your are aware of that His Church will not go through the 'wrath of God'. And Paul tells us in 1 cor 15:51-53, as well as in several other books, that Jesus will come back for His Bride (the Church). The scriptures tell us that He does not return to earth but rather returns to the first heaven's clouds to bring up the dead in Christ and then those alive that believe.

The Pre,post Trib versions have been debunked many times as well as the Pre-wrath. Most of these are associated with the Amillennial views and most of time are also Preterist who (full) believe that all prophecy has been completed including Daniel's 70th week.

Very few, believe soley in 1 Cor 15:1-4 and still do not believe in the Pre-Trib Rapture. Will Jesus accept them or will He NOT?

All I know is that I am watching for a Pre-Trib Rapture and seeing the prophecies of the OT come truer every day bringing Jacob's Troubles ever closer to use. As a single event in the Bible, Nothing has to happen for the Rapture to take place, NOTHING. Yet, Daniel's 70th week can not start until the Antichrist has confirmed a covenant between Israel and Death and Hell. REm the Antichrist is ONLY revealed to the masses in Seal #1 (rev 6:1).

But at my age, Death could take me at any time. if this happens as it has for my Father and Mother and countless others, I will be satisfied to wait until I am resurrected from my grave. I WIN!

On the other hand, IF I do not die before the Rapture takes place, then I will receive my new body along side of my parents and friends who prior to my demise have secummed the Jaws of Death. I WIN!

Can you say that for sure with your type of worship? think about it long and hard. Please!

Blade

 

[Alertandawake]

Second for all those foolish Americans who have bought the lie
of the pre-tribulation rapture and are waiting for the mother ship
to beam them up.

The problem I have with this pre-trib rapture, is that it leaves so many unprepared, it is as if this kind of teaching is designed to get peoples defenses down? I don't know too much about it, but what I do know is that throughout history, there has been alot of persecutions. How many millions of people died and suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church?

 

[Bladerunner]

The problem I have with this pre-trib rapture, is that it leaves so many unprepared, it is as if this kind of teaching is designed to get peoples defenses down? I don't know too much about it, but what I do know is that throughout history, there has been alot of persecutions. How many millions of people died and suffered at the hands of the Catholic Church?

Originally Posted by Waggles View Post


Second for all those foolish Americans who have bought the lie
of the pre-tribulation rapture and are waiting for the mother ship
to beam them up.

Alertandawake and Waggles....... Let me ask a series of Questions you and others need to ask youselves and hopefully be able to answer them completely.

How does the Rapture get Peoples defenses Down.....What defences? against GOD? against Believing in the Bible? Have you prayed for the Millions of those true Christians who gave their lives for a BELIEF? could you do that? Could you have the conviction that you are not persuaded by society and all of its offerings.

Americans who bought a LIE of Believing in the Pre-Trib Rapture: Do you not believe in the WORD of GOD completely? Or do you pick and chose the scriptures that you like the most...Be honest, is this because of your lifestyle? Your teacher? Your pastor?


So much for the questions!.....To believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel 1 cor 15:1-4, one cannot abstractly remove His words when it is convenient. I am not saying that you have to believe in the Bible to be saved......No you have to believe in the MAN that died on that Cross for your sins IF and ONLY IF you recognize HIM as your savior.

BUT there is more......In the passages of 1 Cor 15:4 it states " ..........according to the scriptures:",,,,Here you also have to believe the scriptures are correct in order to believe.
'
So to believe in Jesus Christ, you have to believe His Word(s) written down for all to see.

If you either fail to believe them as they are literally, historically and grammatically written

or

believe that they were distorted down through the ages;

Then (Last question).....HOW can you believe in Jesus Christ at ALL?

 

[Joseppi]

So, no one has argued against globalism being a great sign of the end.

The globalism is prevented by God at the tower of Babel by his confounding of the languages and the subsequent division of the whole earth into nations and their territories.
However, once God brought the gospel into the world he reversed what he did at Babel. The gift of tongues being evidence of the end of globalism prohibition.
Note that Satan formed the Roman Empire as his means of locating the Christ child so as to kill him as the gospels ane Revelation 12 show.
But then when Jesus was risen from the dead and ascended into heaven the existence of that Empire furtheted the rapid advance of tje gospel on earth. So, then Satan drove the Roman Empire underground and broke it up to stop the gospel.
The dark ages descended on it and only after the new testament reappeared in Europe and was published as the Holy Bible in English did that darkness dissipate.
The Holy Bible was.brought to the New World from where it will be sent at the time of the end into all the world.
Now, Satan must form a one world governance in an attempt to prevent the predicted return of Jesus Christ.

 

[OMEGA777]

To Waggles:

How do you account for the Mountains being moved out of their places

and the Islands Disappearing ?

Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;

and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

 

[stillness]

To WAGGLES FROM OMEGA777

THE MID TRIB RAPTURE

1. JESUS said that the Days for the Elect in this Last Generation will be Shortened
which means that we will go UP TO WHERE JESUS IS BEFORE EVERYONE ELSE.

There are 2 sides to every coin, when someone looks at one side makes me think of the other side: "except those days be shortened no flesh would be saved, but for the elect sake those days will be shortened." I see is that it will be so bad that if He didn't show up no one would remain alive. Apparently more people have died for the faith in the last century than the whole church history. And the Lord told us not to fear those who can kill the body, but to fear God.
Daniel 8:23 refers to the second world war, there is one more world war in Daniel 12, that is the time of trouble such as never was.

 

[Bladerunner]

So, no one has argued against globalism being a great sign of the end.

The globalism is prevented by God at the tower of Babel by his confounding of the languages and the subsequent division of the whole earth into nations and their territories.
However, once God brought the gospel into the world he reversed what he did at Babel. The gift of tongues being evidence of the end of globalism prohibition.
Note that Satan formed the Roman Empire as his means of locating the Christ child so as to kill him as the gospels ane Revelation 12 show.
But then when Jesus was risen from the dead and ascended into heaven the existence of that Empire furtheted the rapid advance of tje gospel on earth. So, then Satan drove the Roman Empire underground and broke it up to stop the gospel.
The dark ages descended on it and only after the new testament reappeared in Europe and was published as the Holy Bible in English did that darkness dissipate.
The Holy Bible was.brought to the New World from where it will be sent at the time of the end into all the world.
Now, Satan must form a one world governance in an attempt to prevent the predicted return of Jesus Christ.

I guess that is one way to put it, although you need to correct a thing or two.

 

[Bladerunner]

To Waggles:

How do you account for the Mountains being moved out of their places

and the Islands Disappearing ?

Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;

and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.


Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

Good post Omega,,,,,although I don't think a lot of people understand just how bad it will be. If there is an earthquake that will level mountains (i.e. Mt St Helen only removed roughly 1/6 of the mountain) and that is plural (every Mountain). A lot of people are going to die before they have a chance to make it right with the Lord. after your dead, it is too late. For those that are mid-post trib and pre wrath need to think about that.

Hope you have a Blessed week ahead.

Blad

 

[Bladerunner]

There are 2 sides to every coin, when someone looks at one side makes me think of the other side: "except those days be shortened no flesh would be saved, but for the elect sake those days will be shortened." I see is that it will be so bad that if He didn't show up no one would remain alive. Apparently more people have died for the faith in the last century than the whole church history. And the Lord told us not to fear those who can kill the body, but to fear God.
Daniel 8:23 refers to the second world war, there is one more world war in Daniel 12, that is the time of trouble such as never was.

not really Stillness. After the rapture, there will still be the elect on earth... again the ten virgins believed but on;ly five were taken to heaven. After the Rapture of His church(age of Grace, the Age of the Tribulations begins. For those left behind, the new Gospel will be that to get to Heaven, you will have to DIE in the name of Jesus.

Here we have the elect that you are talking about. They may be elect but have not fully committed yet..They will commit but the destruction of the whole world (is what a nuclear war would do) would prevent them from doing just that.....Rem after your dead and not in Jesus it is over.

I am sorry,,I try not to be to MaCabr'e here but it is just that. The preterist will find out just how wrong they were and will turn to the false religion as quickly as possible.

During the pre-Daniel's 70th week, 1/4 of the earth will die and during the 7-year period of Daniel's 70th week (Jacob's Troubles) another 1/3 of the population will die. Then you will have Armageddon were enough people will die that their blood in the Jesreal Valley will be up to a Horse's bridle. Now that may or may not be a Metaphor but every military person on that battle field will lose their life in most all cases. Is that another, 1/4 of the population? China will have an army there of 200,000. The whole world is mad at GOD and is going to battle against HIM,,,Idiots. But that is what they do.

Let's just say that during this 'Age of Tribulation', some 4+ Billion people will die. How many will be have our Lord in their hearts and Die in His name.

 

[Ellsworth1943]

not really Stillness. After the rapture, there will still be the elect on earth... again the ten virgins believed but on;ly five were taken to heaven. After the Rapture of His church(age of Grace, the Age of the Tribulations begins. For those left behind, the new Gospel will be that to get to Heaven, you will have to DIE in the name of Jesus.

Here we have the elect that you are talking about. They may be elect but have not fully committed yet..They will commit but the destruction of the whole world (is what a nuclear war would do) would prevent them from doing just that.....Rem after your dead and not in Jesus it is over.

I am sorry,,I try not to be to MaCabr'e here but it is just that. The preterist will find out just how wrong they were and will turn to the false religion as quickly as possible.

During the pre-Daniel's 70th week, 1/4 of the earth will die and during the 7-year period of Daniel's 70th week (Jacob's Troubles) another 1/3 of the population will die. Then you will have Armageddon were enough people will die that their blood in the Jesreal Valley will be up to a Horse's bridle. Now that may or may not be a Metaphor but every military person on that battle field will lose their life in most all cases. Is that another, 1/4 of the population? China will have an army there of 200,000. The whole world is mad at GOD and is going to battle against HIM,,,Idiots. But that is what they do.

Let's just say that during this 'Age of Tribulation', some 4+ Billion people will die. How many will be have our Lord in their hearts and Die in His name.

I Thess. 5:9 is used many times to prove the pre-trib rapture belief.
Why does this verse apply to some Saints, those who are raptured before the tribulation, but not to those left behind or those saved during the tribulation time?
Can you provide Scripture?

 

[Joseppi]

It was God that incited the four great winds to strive with man on the great sea to establish a global world government. God has his plan, his short work.

Note: It was God who ordained Nebuchadnezzar king of the whole earth.

Unto Nebuchadnezzar, God said, Thou art this head of Gold. Daniel 2:38

And so, the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar became a way for Satan to seek to usurp authority over the whole earth.

This is plainly seen when we read how quickly Nebuchadnezzar sought to enforce a global worship of his head of gold.

So, what is God revealing concerning the terrible image that Nebuchadnezzar saw in the night?

Daniel testified,
There is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Daniel 2:28
So, the image reveals what shall occur in the latter days.

Because of Daniel 12:4 I know that the latter days have come.
It behooves us therefore to understand.

Daniel also told the king that God gave the interpretation that "thou mightest know the thoughts of thy heart." Daniel 2:30

God knows what is in the heart of man but men must be shown the secrets of their own hearts.

 

[Waggles]

Alertandawake and Waggles....... Let me ask a series of Questions you and others need to ask youselves and hopefully be able to answer them completely.
So to believe in Jesus Christ, you have to believe His Word(s) written down for all to see.
If you either fail to believe them as they are literally, historically and grammatically written
or
believe that they were distorted down through the ages;
Then (Last question).....HOW can you believe in Jesus Christ at ALL?

34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged
with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come
upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape
all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Luke 21:

1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins,
which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom
cometh; go ye out to meet him.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came;
and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage:
and the door was shut.

Christians like everybody else will suffer the terrible tribulations and terrors
of the last days immediately prior to the Lord's return in power and glory.
Along with atheists, Darwinists, Hindus, Jews, Buddhists, Muslims and everybody else.
But there will be a difference between true worship and faith and the power to endure,
versus a multitude of counterfeits.

And that is what pre-tribbers are afraid of - that not all constitute THE Church
of God. So who will be raptured? All of us of course.

 

[Waggles]

To Waggles:
How do you account for the Mountains being moved out of their places
and the Islands Disappearing ?
Re 6:14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together;
and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
Re 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.

It ain't because some fictitious planet named Nibiru will collide with Earth.
The Lord might push an asteroid towards us or he might just allow
tectonic plates move around violently.
Isn't Yellowstone ready to pop?

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake;
and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain
and island were moved out of their places.
Revelation 6:

12 For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty,
and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:
14 And upon all the high mountains, and upon all the hills that are lifted up,
17 And the loftiness of man shall be bowed down, and the haughtiness of men
shall be made low: and the LORD alone shall be exalted in that day.
18 And the idols he shall utterly abolish.
19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth,
for fear of the LORD, and for the glory of his majesty, [c.f. Rev 6:15-17]
when he arises to shake terribly the earth.
Isaiah 2:

4 And his brightness was as the light; he had horns coming out of his hand:
and there was the hiding of his power.
5 Before him went the pestilence, and burning coals went forth at his feet.
6 He stood, and measured the earth: he beheld, and drove asunder the
nations; and the everlasting mountains were scattered, the perpetual hills did bow:
his ways are everlasting.
Habakkuk 3:

Not only will the Earth shake violently but also the stars will be shaken.

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened,
and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven,
and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Matthew 24:29

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens
shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat,
the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
2Peter 3:10

And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casts her
untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
Revelation 6:13