Unmerited Favor..... Has the definition changed? Who changed it?

[UnderGrace]

And when you do sin, do you just cover it or confess it?
I find His blood sweetly cleanses a guilty conscience...no condemnation.

Crossnote, I feel a little bit like you are taunting in your question but that is okay, I can be honest

I was raised Catholic but a born again believer now, so I have a natural aversion to the ongoing confession of sin and cleansing cycle. You know what though old habits die hard, even though I completely understood as a born again believer of my full redemption in Jesus and that all my sins past, present and future were forgiven I still lived in that vicious cycle.

There I was confessing sin thinking I needed to be cleansed again and again, a dreadful Christian walk, a constant fruit inspector of myself and others. And you know what I could barely read the Bible because it only convicted me more.

What you believe is formed in you and you read what you already believe.

Praise God ..... reading Hebrews 6:6 set me free... we continue to crucify Jesus again and again as though His work on the cross is not sufficient..... we do not need to do that we need to move on.

Cee has already answered it best..... I am absolutely under the conviction of righteousness

No need to confess my sins to God, as in ask to ask forgiveness, He has done that already fully and completely.

 

[disciplemike]

No need to confess my sins to God, as in ask to ask forgiveness, He has done that already fully and completely.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1 John 1:9 (ESV2011)

That "if" can be such a pesky word.

 

[Cee]

You're right.

Notice it says "fruitless" works of darkness.

You don't want to put your own idea of what a work of darkness is, but use Scripture.

And here's what Scripture says is a fruitless work of darkness. That means no fruit of the Spirit.

I won't post the entire chapter I'll just post the next few verses here:

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.


Ephesians 5:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, [SUP]20 [/SUP]giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]21 [/SUP]submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

It appears to me from this chapter that those who are doing the opposite of what this Scripture are the ones who's deeds need to be exposed and brought into the light.

Those who live for Satan are to be exposed, as commanded by scripture:
Ephesians 5:11-12 (NASB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Do not participate in the unfruitful deeds of darkness, but instead even expose them; [SUP]12 [/SUP]for it is disgraceful even to speak of the things which are done by them in secret.

Ephesians 5:11-12 (TEV)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Have nothing to do with the worthless things that people do, things that belong to the darkness. Instead, bring them out to the light. [SUP]12 [/SUP](It is really too shameful even to talk about the things they do in secret.)

Ephesians 5:11-12 (HCSB)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Don’t participate in the fruitless works of darkness, but instead expose them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]For it is shameful even to mention what is done by them in secret.

Ephesians 5:11-12 (NLT)
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Take no part in the worthless deeds of evil and darkness; instead, expose them. [SUP]12 [/SUP]It is shameful even to talk about the things that ungodly people do in secret.

 

[thepsalmist]

Crossnote, I feel a little bit like you are taunting in your question but that is okay, I can be honest

I was raised Catholic but a born again believer now, so I have a natural aversion to the ongoing confession of sin and cleansing cycle. You know what though old habits die hard, even though I completely understood as a born again believer of my full redemption in Jesus and that all my sins past, present and future were forgiven I still lived in that vicious cycle.

There I was confessing sin thinking I needed to be cleansed again and again, a dreadful Christian walk, a constant fruit inspector of myself and others. And you know what I could barely read the Bible because it only convicted me more.

What you believe is formed in you and you read what you already believe.

Praise God ..... reading Hebrews 6:6 set me free... we continue to crucify Jesus again and again as though His work on the cross is not sufficient..... we do not need to do that we need to move on.

Cee has already answered it best..... I am absolutely under the conviction of righteousness

No need to confess my sins to God, as in ask to ask forgiveness, He has done that already fully and completely.

James 5

The Prayer of Faith

13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. 17 Eli′jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.
19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Wait a second ... aren;t some people saying we are forgiven past, present, future sins when we come to Christ???

So why are confessions and powerful prayers required for healing and forgiveness if it has already been accomplished? Why does James even bring up the subject of sin ...

 

[UnderGrace]

We can certainly confess our sins to one another...no problem with that at all....born again believers help each other and restore each other to the right belief about our standing in Jesus.

I was talking about confessing sins to God and seeking forgiveness and cleansing. I believe that was done when I became born again...once and for all...I now live in the righteousness bestowed upon by the work of Jesus.

James 5

The Prayer of Faith

13 Is any one among you suffering? Let him pray. Is any cheerful? Let him sing praise. 14 Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; 15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. 16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. 17 Eli′jah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. 18 Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit.
19 My brethren, if any one among you wanders from the truth and some one brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

Wait a second ... aren;t some people saying we are forgiven past, present, future sins when we come to Christ???

So why are confessions and powerful prayers required for healing and forgiveness if it has already been accomplished? Why does James even bring up the subject of sin ...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

You're right.
Notice it says "fruitless" works of darkness.
You don't want to put your own idea of what a work of darkness is, but use Scripture.
And here's what Scripture says is a fruitless work of darkness. That means no fruit of the Spirit.
I won't post the entire chapter I'll just post the next few verses here:

Ephesians 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children. [SUP]2 [/SUP]And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.

Ephesians 5:[SUP]18 [/SUP]And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit, [SUP]19 [/SUP]addressing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody to the Lord with your heart, [SUP]20 [/SUP]giving thanks always and for everything to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, [SUP]21 [/SUP]submitting to one another out of reverence for Christ.

It appears to me from this chapter that those who are doing the opposite of what this Scripture are the ones who's deeds need to be exposed and brought into the light.

This is why I don't pay attention to the verses you quote. You simply string verses together to spin them and leave out the ones that contradict your message. Like this:

for the fruit of the light [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth, Ephesians 5:9​

So it is the fruit of the spirit to speak the truth.

 

[Cee]

Well said, just a quick additional point.

Notice also that James doesn't say they need to confess their sin to not go to hell, but so they can experience the effects of righteousness in their bodies. He could have simply said, confess your sin, or you will be in hell, but instead he attached it to the experiential result of healing.

Unless of course, we go down the route that all those who are sick are in sin. Which I don't currently believe even though some could say Scripture does indicate it here. I think the focus of this Scripture though is confessing to each other and through faith agreeing with God says. It also links us up to righteousness. By saying, the prayer of a righteous will save the sick.

There is another pathway of thought which is interesting, which is that being stuck in sin could result in death. This ties into Scripture that says a mind set on sin will produce death. But a mind set on the Spirit will produce life. Without going into the intricacies of this idea, it does tell us that we focus on does matter in an experiential way. And it also tells us that sin many times is through how we treat one another, since we need to confess to each other. Which links us into Scriptures that say loving one another fulfills the entire law.

Obviously if we are not loving each other, we are in someway stuck in sin. Because that is the great command of our Lord and it is the striking example that Paul paints in 1 Co 13, that look even if you give it all to the poor, give your body to be burned, and know all mysteries (or doctrine) without love, I'm nothing.

So we see a continual driving force in Scripture that we become like our Father who is Love. Because of His love for us and His love through us. I believe this is probably the greatest hinge upon all Scripture interpretation must rest. Love in all it's beautiful forms.

We can certainly confess our sins to one another...no problem with that at all....born again believers help each other and restore each other to the right belief about our standing in Jesus.

I was talking about confessing sins to God and seeking forgiveness and cleansing. I believe that was done when I became born again...once and for all...I now live in the righteousness bestowed upon by the work of Jesus.

 

[Cee]

I left them out because you have complained my posts are too long.

So I've tried to make them shorter, but I don't always do a good job.

As far as the Scripture I figured that point was obvious, yes, I agree. Fruit of the light is all goodness, righteousness, and truth... but you also can't ignore Paul's example of what those things look like. Or else you create your own interpretation of what "fruitless" work is.

I figured that by me bolding fruit, the connection between works of darkness vs fruit of the Spirit would be obvious. Thus anything that is not a fruit of the Spirit is "fruitless". Now, if we simply say it's all truth, etc, one thing I've noticed is that people's idea of "truth, goodness, and righteousness" is very subjective. So that's why I stated the examples I did to show what Paul meant by those things.

Feel free to call me out though on any other Scriptures you think I am missing. I actually enjoy the feedback. That's one reason why i stay in here, because I do want to grow in my understanding. And I like your POV on some things and I have actually rethought some of my interpretations and positions after going through the Scriptures in light of some of your feedback.

And your feedback has helped me get clarity on my own positions, so that I can understand where I might not be completely explaining myself or leaving out an important point.

For instance, the idea of knowing self for salvation. I completely agree against that idea, so now I make sure that I articulate myself in a way that I don't represent it.

So thank you for your feedback in all of my posts.

This is why I don't pay attention to the verses you quote. You simply string verses together to spin them and leave out the ones that contradict your message. Like this:

for the fruit of the light [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth, Ephesians 5:9
​

So it is the fruit of the spirit to speak the truth.

 

[gb9]

This is why I don't pay attention to the verses you quote. You simply string verses together to spin them and leave out the ones that contradict your message. Like this:

for the fruit of the light [is] in all goodness and righteousness and truth, Ephesians 5:9​

So it is the fruit of the spirit to speak the truth.

oh,so you have never just randomly put verses together to " make " a point??? come on man!!

 

[crossnote]

Crossnote, I feel a little bit like you are taunting in your question but that is okay, I can be honest

I was raised Catholic but a born again believer now, so I have a natural aversion to the ongoing confession of sin and cleansing cycle. You know what though old habits die hard, even though I completely understood as a born again believer of my full redemption in Jesus and that all my sins past, present and future were forgiven I still lived in that vicious cycle.

There I was confessing sin thinking I needed to be cleansed again and again, a dreadful Christian walk, a constant fruit inspector of myself and others. And you know what I could barely read the Bible because it only convicted me more.

What you believe is formed in you and you read what you already believe.

Praise God ..... reading Hebrews 6:6 set me free... we continue to crucify Jesus again and again as though His work on the cross is not sufficient..... we do not need to do that we need to move on.

Cee has already answered it best..... I am absolutely under the conviction of righteousness

No need to confess my sins to God, as in ask to ask forgiveness, He has done that already fully and completely.

No, I was in no way taunting.
The Holy Spirit unlike the RC priest woos us unto conviction by nudging our conscience at first whereas the priest uses scare tactics. Besides when we confess whatever sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of (no laundry list needed) we sense a deep relief of conscience, this is accords with ...

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:9)

This is not a doctrine to squabble over but a true blessing we receive. Those who deny this or refuse the promptings of the Holy Spirit convicting of sin only deny themselves a blessing and/or harden their hearts.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

Great questions here's David's psalm:

"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy Spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free Spirit." Psalm 5:10-12.

In the OT the Spirit came upon the prophets, but He was not joined with them.

1 Samuel 16:3 Then Samuel took the horn of oil and anointed him in the midst of his brothers. And the Spirit of the LORD rushed upon David from that day forward. And Samuel rose up and went to Ramah.

Why was David worried about Holy Spirit leaving him, but we have been sealed with him forever?

Your verse numbers are not matching up with the quotes. But I'm glad you brought this up about David because it actually proves you, Mr. Prince and OSAS doctrine wrong. You said David was not in Christ (which I already showed you were wrong on that) and you also said David was not made a new man, and also OSAS doctrine says the Spirit cannot be taken away from a once saved always saved believer. But yet David was very concerned about the Spirit of God leaving him, Why? Well, for one David knew what happened to Saul after he had rebelled against God's commands and the Spirit was taken from him.

Saul was anointed of the same Spirit of God as David, and notice Saul was made a new person.....

1 Samuel 10:1-6 "Then Samuel took a vial of oil, and poured it upon his head, and kissed him, and said, Is it not because the Lord hath anointed thee to be captain over his inheritance?[SUP]2 [/SUP]When thou art departed from me to day, then thou shalt find two men by Rachel's sepulchre in the border of Benjamin at Zelzah; and they will say unto thee, The asses which thou wentest to seek are found: and, lo, thy father hath left the care of the asses, and sorroweth for you, saying, What shall I do for my son?
[SUP]3 [/SUP]Then shalt thou go on forward from thence, and thou shalt come to the plain of Tabor, and there shall meet thee three men going up to God to Bethel, one carrying three kids, and another carrying three loaves of bread, and another carrying a bottle of wine:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]And they will salute thee, and give thee two loaves of bread; which thou shalt receive of their hands.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]After that thou shalt come to the hill of God, where is the garrison of the Philistines: and it shall come to pass, when thou art come thither to the city, that thou shalt meet a company of prophets coming down from the high place with a psaltery, and a tabret, and a pipe, and a harp, before them; and they shall prophesy:
[SUP]6 [/SUP]And the Spirit of the Lord will come upon thee, and thou shalt prophesy with them, and shalt be turned into another man."

So if Saul was made a new man, why would one think David was not when David received the same anointing of the Holy Spirit?

Also this verse here shows that the Holy Spirit can in fact be taken from a person....

1 Samuel 16:14
But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him."

This brings us to why David was so concerned about the Spirit of God departing from him in Psalm 51. Psalm 51 is the Psalm of David when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in unto Bath-sheba. Also notice David confessing his sins (which hyper grace does not believe is necessary)....

Psalm 51:1-13 "Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.[SUP]2 [/SUP]Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.
[SUP]3 [/SUP]For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[SUP]6 [/SUP]Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
[SUP]7 [/SUP]Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.
[SUP]11 [/SUP]Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.
[SUP]12 [/SUP]Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.
[SUP]13 [/SUP]Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee."

And yes, NT believers can fall away from the faith as the term "once enlightened" and "partakers of the Holy Ghost" means they were once anointed of the Spirit but had departed from the faith and fallen away like Saul.

Hebrews 6:4-6
[SUP]4 [/SUP]For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
[SUP]6 [/SUP]If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

 

[crossnote]

Okay so that's where we are misunderstanding each other.

Sure we confront of sin, in regard to their righteousness.

We do not confront sin, in regard to their dead sin nature.

What is happening is 2 Scriptures are misinterpreted wrong in 1 John to fit this belief.

1. We will always sin
2. You have to always confess it
3. You have no hope of freedom or righteousness

These 3 ideas keep us focused on sin (or depravity of man), but we are called to purified that we are like Him, in Him.

Remember when Paul says, are you not acting like mere men? We can't define ourselves by flesh standards. We define ourselves by what God says about us, this is renewing our mind, agreeing with Him and His promises, thus partaking of the divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire.

I agree we confront of sin, but in essence so that they will be convicted of their righteousness. As I've discussed before "repentance" or changing of mind, is turning toward God.

We know this because when Jesus stood in front of them, He said repent for the Kingdom of God is in front of you.

Repentance needs to know who we are not, but also who we are.
We are not sinful creatures, we died to the old man, and are reborn as new creations in Him.

C.

You seem to be meandering all over. Let's get back and focus on Prince's statement.
Do you or do you not believe the first part of this statement of Prince is false?

"The Holy Spirit does not convict the believer of sin, but of His righteousness in Christ."

 

[UnderGrace]

No, I was in no way taunting. Thank you hard to tell in the written word

The Holy Spirit unlike the RC priest woos us unto conviction by nudging our conscience at first whereas the priest uses scare tactics.

Agree

Besides when we confess whatever sin the Holy Spirit convicts us of (no laundry list needed) we sense a deep relief of conscience, this is accords with ...

Absolutely... did this when I was born again!

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:9)


Certainly when I was born again!

This is not a doctrine to squabble over but a true blessing we receive. Those who deny this or refuse the promptings of the Holy Spirit convicting of sin only deny themselves a blessing and/or harden their hearts.

Sometimes I talk to God about my sins, because being human I put my eyes back on myself again, but he always points back to Jesus.

I will absolutely say that the Holy Spirit does not convict me of sin....I did need it I did enough of it to myself.
Thank you Jesus for setting me free!

I so appreciate that we can talk about how we see things differently without accusation.

Hey have a good night but it is getting late up here in Toronto.

Be blessed.
Angela

 

[crossnote]

Ugh, this all reminds me of the Christian Scientist in hell saying over and over, "It's not hot and I'm not here."

 

[UnderGrace]

Ugh, this all reminds me of the Christian Scientist in hell saying over and over, "It's not hot and I'm not here."

Well if this was directed towards me, I will not be conversing again.

 

[crossnote]

Well if this was directed towards me, I will not be conversing again.

No. It was a general shot over the bow. Did you feel it?

 

[crossnote]

Ugh, this all reminds me of the Christian Scientist in hell saying over and over, "It's not hot and I'm not here."

No. It was a general shot over the bow. Did you feel it?

Perhaps I'll explain.
This doctrine of Prince is leading many to deny the fact that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. So as a result when they feel the tugging of conviction of the Holy Spirit they deny the necessity of confessing it because to them it's reality is non existent, nor could it be from the Holy Spirit, since to them the Holy Spirit does not convict us of our sins.

 

[PilgrimPassingThru]

Perhaps I'll explain.
This doctrine of Prince is leading many to deny the fact that the Holy Spirit convicts us of sin. So as a result when they feel the tugging of conviction of the Holy Spirit they deny the necessity of confessing it because to them it's reality is non existent, nor could it be from the Holy Spirit, since to them the Holy Spirit does not convict us of our sins.

Yeah, I mean how does a believer mortify the deeds of the body through the Spirit if the Spirit isnt convicting them concerning what to put death?

Makes sense to me

 

[Depleted]

Omgosh, not the video!!! He's so dry and completely unleaded by the HS..

What's wrong with name and claim it? Did it not work for you bc you didn't understand it?
Or you're picking bc you don't like his word choice?

Shouldn't people be more careful than to blast someone who doesn't belong to you?? Do you think you'll suffer no consequences? Do you who "warn" not do false things yourself? Or do you not know that you will be judged by what you say?

I don't market to make money off of people and then not worry about them when my lies catch up to them so badly they blame it on God instead of Prince. This isn't false teaching like "Turn left to go to the nearest Walmart," when it should have been a right turn. This is the type of false teaching that gets the naive and needy to chant for years, "God has healed me. God has made me rich" when all along they're getting physically/emotionally/mentally worse and the teacher is stealing their money too. And when they finally admit they're worse off, they give up on God for not keeping his word. It was never God's word. It's Prince's word.

So don't give out that "don't you ever make a mistake" blarney.

 

[Depleted]

Touch not my anointed and do my prophet no harm.. David knew better than to touch Saul..
Samuel served Eli..
God is Holy and should be revered as such.. So should anyone in an office of the Lord..

Joseph Prince isn't God's anointed. And God isn't being revered by a conman.