Unrevealed Revelation?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
113
#1
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,211
2,547
113
#2
Well I don't know if it's a matter of if we are supposed to look into or ponder or not but I know od these scriptures from experience. It isn't very often but there were times when I would fall asleep and wake up in what I believed to be the spiritual realm I honestly could not tell if I was in my body or not and there were times when I would encounter a being and words were spoken with no voice or sound almost like it was a language no human tongue could ever hope to be able to speak.

I don't know anything about a third heaven I didn't even know there were levels of heaven
 
Feb 28, 2016
11,311
2,972
113
#3
it's strictly and Holy Spirit thing...just open your heart of Love for your Saviour,
and He will answer and reassure you at His proper time...
 
Dec 12, 2013
46,515
20,395
113
#4
I think it is Paul speaking of himself when he was taught by direct Revelation.....possibly when he was stoned and left for dead!
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
24,682
13,371
113
#5
I don't know anything about a third heaven I didn't even know there were levels of heaven
One explanation of this is the idea that the sky is the 'first' heaven, space is the second, and the abode of God and the angels is the third heaven.
 
F

FreeNChrist

Guest
#6
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.
I think it being unspeakable and unlawful for a man to utter pretty much says it all.
 
Nov 22, 2015
20,436
1,430
0
#7
I think it being unspeakable and unlawful for a man to utter pretty much says it all.
I think the revelations that Paul received of the Lord that the believers in Christ were not under law of Moses anymore would have been shocking, unspeakable and unlawful to a good Jewish boy that had the Law as his whole life.

I also think that Paul saw the new man in Christ - the new creation which would have been mind-boggling too. Some to this day still don't believe it.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,425
3,474
113
#8
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.
Well maybe Paul was talking about John and His experience on Patmos when He revealed the Book of Revelation?
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
#9
Revelation 10
Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.”
 

prove-all

Senior Member
May 16, 2014
5,977
400
83
63
#10
I don't know anything about a third heaven
I didn't even know there were levels of heaven
Heaven

“Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them” (Gen. 2:1).
This word heavens refers to two different heavens.

The first heaven consists of the Earth’s atmosphere. The second heaven is
the vast reaches of space beyond the atmosphere.

There is also a third heaven: the home of God. The Apostle Paul saw this “third heaven,”
where God’s throne is, in a vision (ii Cor. 12:1-2). This vision was so intensely realistic
that Paul was unable to tell if he was physically there, or if he was seeing it in his mind.

In Hebrews 4:14, the phrase “into the heavens,” should be translated “through the heavens.”
We see that Jesus Christ passed through the first two heavens—Earth’s atmosphere and outer space
—as He ascended to the third heaven.

John 3:13 reveals that no man has ascended to heaven except for Jesus Christ.

Certainly many have ascended to the first and second heavens by aircraft, spacecraft
and other means, so this verse can only refer to the third heaven,
where the Almighty God resides.

Some have said that Elijah ascended to heaven, which he did—but not to the third
heaven. He was taken by chariots of fire up into the first heaven (ii Kings 2:11).
The Hebrew word used for heaven here is the same as in Genesis 2:1.

Elijah did not die during this experience. In fact, Elijah wrote a letter to King Jehoram
years after this event (ii Chron. 21:12). Elijah had been miraculously transported to
another location on Earth.
 
P

pronia

Guest
#11
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.
I think so. In searching the internet for such answers I came across this ...¶...
[...] the road. And he spoke to him, saying, "By which road shall I go up to Jerusalem?" The little child replied, saying, "Say your name, so that I may show you the road". The little child knew who Paul was. He wished to make conversation with him through his words in order that he might find an excuse for speaking with him.
The little child spoke, saying, "I know who you are, Paul. You are he who was blessed from his mother`s womb. For I have come to you that you may go up to Jerusalem to your fellow apostles. And for this reason you were called. And I am the Spirit who accompanies you. Let your mind awaken, Paul, with [...]. For [...] whole which [...] among the principalities and these authorities and archangels and powers and the whole race of demons, [...] the one that reveals bodies to a soul-seed."
And after he brought that speech to an end, he spoke, saying to me, "Let your mind awaken, Paul, and see that this mountain upon which you are standing is the mountain of Jericho, so that you may know the hidden things in those that are visible. Now it is to the twelve apostles that you shall go, for they are elect spirits, and they will greet you." He raised his eyes and saw them greeting him.
Then the Holy Spirit who was speaking with him caught him up on high to the third heaven, and he passed beyond to the fourth heaven. The Holy Spirit spoke to him, saying, "Look and see your likeness upon the earth." And he looked down and saw those who were upon the earth. He stared and saw those who were upon the [...]. Then he gazed down and saw the twelve apostles at his right and at his left in the creation; and the Spirit was going before them.
 
P

pronia

Guest
#12
...¶...
But I saw in the fourth heaven according to class - I saw the angels resembling gods, the angels bringing a soul out of the land of the dead. They placed it at the gate of the fourth heaven. And the angels were whipping it. The soul spoke, saying, "What sin was it that I committed in the world?" The toll-collector who dwells in the fourth heaven replied, saying, "It was not right to commit all those lawless deeds that are in the world of the dead". The soul replied, saying, "Bring witnesses! Let them show you in what body I committed lawless deeds. Do you wish to bring a book to read from?"
And the three witnesses came. The first spoke, saying, "Was I not in the body the second hour [...]? I rose up against you until you fell into anger and rage and envy." And the second spoke, saying, "Was I not in the world? And I entered at the fifth hour, and I saw you and desired you. And behold, then, now I charge you with the murders you committed." The third spoke, saying, "Did I not come to you at the twelfth hour of the day when the sun was about to set? I gave you darkness until you should accomplish your sins." When the soul heard these things, it gazed downward in sorrow. And then it gazed upward. It was cast down. The soul that had been cast down went to a body which had been prepared for it. And behold, its witnesses were finished.
Then I gazed upward and saw the Spirit saying to me, "Paul, come! Proceed toward me!". Then as I went, the gate opened, and I went up to the fifth heaven. And I saw my fellow apostles going with me while the Spirit accompanied us. And I saw a great angel in the fifth heaven holding an iron rod in his hand. There were three other angels with him, and I stared into their faces. But they were rivalling each other, with whips in their hands, goading the souls on to the judgment. But I went with the Spirit and the gate opened for me.
Then we went up to the sixth heaven. And I saw my fellow apostles going with me, and the Holy Spirit was leading me before them. And I gazed up on high and saw a great light shining down on the sixth heaven. I spoke, saying to the toll-collector who was in the sixth heaven, "Open to me and the Holy Spirit who is before me." He opened to me.
Then we went up to the seventh heaven, and I saw an old man [...] light and whose garment was white. His throne, which is in the seventh heaven, was brighter than the sun by seven times. The old man spoke, saying to me, "Where are you going, Paul? O blessed one and the one who was set apart from his mother`s womb." But I looked at the Spirit, and he was nodding his head, saying to me, "Speak with him!". And I replied, saying to the old man, "I am going to the place from which I came." And the old man responded to me, "Where are you from?" But I replied, saying, "I am going down to the world of the dead in order to lead captive the captivity that was led captive in the captivity of Babylon." The old man replied to me saying, "How will you be able to get away from me? Look and see the principalities and authorities." The Spirit spoke, saying, "Give him the sign that you have, and he will open for you." And then I gave him the sign. He turned his face downwards to his creation and to those who are his own authorities.
And then the <seventh> heaven opened and we went up to the Ogdoad. And I saw the twelve apostles. They greeted me, and we went up to the ninth heaven. I greeted all those who were in the ninth heaven, and we went up to the tenth heaven. And I greeted my fellow spirits.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
369
83
#13
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
He knew a man approximately fourteen years ago, who whether physically in the body like Philip when the Spirit suddenly took him after baptizing the Ethiopian Eunich, or whether out of the body like Elijah and Moses appeared with Christ. It doesn't matter, God knows whether or not this man was in his body at the time, point is he was caught up to the third heaven. The first heaven is the sky- which is the air we breathe on the earth. The second heaven is outer space- where the sun moon and stars are. And the third heaven is Paradise.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
Some things are unspeakable because either words just cannot express their meaning, or God forbids someone to say them- such as when John was about to write something in Revelation but was told not to. Because it was not lawful- that means that God's law forbid this man (or any man) to repeat something specific he heard in paradise. We obviously don't know what it was.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.
We should ponder everything the Bible says. But there are certain things the Bible does NOT say. If God wanted us to know then the Bible would tell us. I think guessing what is was is like chasing after the wind- you'll never accomplish the goal of knowing something God doesn't want you to know- for whatever reason. I don't think it's wrong, just that our time and energy can be better spent on so many other things in the Bible that God DOES want us to know.
 
Last edited:

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,846
1,564
113
#14
Revelation 10
Now when the seven thunders uttered their voices, I was about to write; but I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, “Seal up the things which the seven thunders uttered, and do not write them.”
Hebrews 9:5
 

abcdef

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2016
2,809
111
63
#16
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.



Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.



2 Kings 7:17, "And Elisha prayed, and said, Lord, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the Lord opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."

Jesus and the chariots of fire are always there.

When we die, and our spirits will break free from this body, then we shall see them.

--

If you did see them,

Do you know what God would be requiring of you?

That is, Jesus would not be revealing things to you for no reason.

If He gave you the vision or revelation,

The increase in faith, would require more from you, (work of the kingdom)

Your life would be changed forever.

If you saw Jesus, or hell, just for a split second,

I KNOW that you would be preaching every moment that you could,

That you would see the reality of the situation between love and Satan.

In this world things have limits, pain, joy,

But in the next world those limits are gone.

The unending limitless joy of Jesus,

Or emptiness and fire without end.

You want to see spiritual reality?

It carries a great burden.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
63
#17
(2Cor 12:1 [KJV])
It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

(2Cor 12:2 [KJV])
I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

(2Cor 12:3 [KJV])
And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth)

(2Cor 12:4 [KJV])
How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

Is this something that we are supposed to look into and ponder? Was any of it revealed at a later date? Is it something to be discovered by us in the future? Feel free to post your thoughts, conjectures, opinions, imaginings, whatever.

Seems it had to be a vision since the body without the spirit is dead, and if the spirit is pnuema, or air, then it seems he wouldn't have gotten much higher than the 2nd heaven, being the heaven which was made since the first heaven was created.

I wonder if he saw that expanse of invisible light called heaven created in Genesis 1:1 was bowed like the firmament in Genesis 1:8 which covers the earth like a garment according to Job 38:9 since the scriptures state that the heavens are bowed in 2 Sam 22:10.

But since all things are possible to them that don't believe God, it would seem that if it was was an in the body experience then it seem like he would have bumped his head real hard trying to break through the outer limits of the universe to enter into the eternal light which no man has seen nor can see.

However, this thought popped into my mind, I recall seeing a guy once who was wearing a garment that said "I died and was resurrected in Christ and all I got was this lousy t-shirt[SUP]TM[/SUP]" but I digress. Kinda makes me think about what Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you shall be with me in Paradise since his next stop was in the heart of the earth for three days.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
#18
Mat 13:52 Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribewhich is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
#19
[h=2]Unrevealed Revelation?[/h]
I think that portion is teaching us to humble ourselves under the hearing of faith (Christ's) .

To boast, really, is not profitable for me, for I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.

There I would offer Paul is revealing how we personally come to Christ. Boasting they could come from his own self as he said would not be profitable.

We come to Christ through his visions as revelations to us, and not to us, from us.In that way we are to think of no man above that which is written .

I have known a man in Christ, fourteen years ago -- whether in the body I have not known, whether out of the body I have not known, God hath known -- such an one being caught away unto the third heaven;


The third heaven is where the mysteries of God are.... that He has not revealed to us.

I would offer there Paul says whether the man was a believer or not, only God knows. God can use an unbeliever to bring His word just as one that does have the faith of Christ.
introduce another person in the next verse .

This example seems to be one who is receiving a new revelation (paradise the revealed presence, also called the Bosom of Abraham ) as that pointing to prophecy which is impossible for man speak, unless God moves them

and I have known such a man -- whether in the body, whether out of the body, I have not known, God hath known, --that he was caught away to the paradise, and heard unutterable sayings, that it is not possible for man to speak. 2

The second example, this man, would be accredited as being moved to bring prophecy.

5 Of such an one I will boast, and of myself I will not boast, except in my infirmities,

The second example the one that does bring the prophecy he will boast in, he will not boast in his strength as one who brings the gospel. But will in the strength of the gospel

6 for if I may wish to boast, I shall not be a fool, for truth I will say; but I forebear, lest any one in regard to me may think anything above what he doth see me, or doth hear anything of me;

Again here he is pointing to the source of faith it is not of us.We do not know Christ after the witness of man.But the greater witness, His word.

7 and that by the exceeding greatness of the revelations I might not be exalted overmuch, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of the Adversary, that he might buffet me, that I might not be exalted overmuch. 2

Through the scriptures (the exceeding greatness of the revelations) they have a way of humbling us pricking our fleshly pride.
Reminded I believe of the parable below.

It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory.He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls. Pro 25:27

1 Peter, I believe is a companion (Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things,)

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto “whom it” was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. 1Pe 1:9
 
Feb 1, 2017
109
1
0
#20
A good example of something impermissible to speak on Earth would be something going like" In heaven, there is no marriage, everything is about free-love-fun, therefore you get to make love to anyone you like"

What do we observe?

God's ways are not our own, the spiritual has its own glory that we cannot and are not able to grasp as to what kind of Body we will have.

When the Apostle said "whether in the body or out of the body, I don't know" The person he was referring to might have experienced Heaven from a new body perspective, which would have been difficult to comprehend.

The only alternative here is that he was in both, the spirit and spiritual body.

What he meant by body, or which body he was referring to, we don't know. How could he have known enough to say that a glorified body is different and yet similar to a human body, if it is?
 
Last edited: