Wars in the Bible

[oopsies]

The topic was brought up from the teen forum - it's an interesting one so I thought I'd re-post it here.

Some people (I'm not picking on people) hold the view that the wars - I assume the ones where Israelis fight and completely destroy their enemies - are contradictory to the love of God.

My view: those other nations were actually doing more than just worshiping another deity - in their worship, they were also sacrificing children, engaging in rape, and all sorts of other things that are detestable. So it is actually just that they were destroyed. But those who were not destroyed are the exceptions within their nations - rare and few in between - but were permitted to defect to the Israeli side (and thus we read where the men had to be circumcised and follow all the laws of the Israelites, etc.). I also believe that cultural differences back then keep us from understanding it because we no longer hold those same views in today's society.

 

[greatkraw]

you probably have to look at each case individually

God declared war on sodom and Gommorah;he used natural forces

other groups He declared war on he used one group to punish another

eg he used the conquistadors to punish the aztecs and incas

when Jesus returns at the glorious appearing He will quickly have his garment dipped in blood

 

[aspen]

The topic was brought up from the teen forum - it's an interesting one so I thought I'd re-post it here.

Some people (I'm not picking on people) hold the view that the wars - I assume the ones where Israelis fight and completely destroy their enemies - are contradictory to the love of God.

My view: those other nations were actually doing more than just worshiping another deity - in their worship, they were also sacrificing children, engaging in rape, and all sorts of other things that are detestable. So it is actually just that they were destroyed. But those who were not destroyed are the exceptions within their nations - rare and few in between - but were permitted to defect to the Israeli side (and thus we read where the men had to be circumcised and follow all the laws of the Israelites, etc.). I also believe that cultural differences back then keep us from understanding it because we no longer hold those same views in today's society.

Yeah....I disagree. The message of the OT is 'I AM' - God exists. The rest of the OT is humanity's long record of failed attempts to respond to God's Being. The Israelites responded it typical fashion, superstition, war, genocide, nationalism, and grandiosity. God sent Jesus to let us know the proper response - 'love God and your neighbor' It is predictable that the Jewish people did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit their image of the Messiah who would respond with war.

 

[oopsies]

you probably have to look at each case individually

God declared war on sodom and Gommorah;he used natural forces

other groups He declared war on he used one group to punish another

eg he used the conquistadors to punish the aztecs and incas

when Jesus returns at the glorious appearing He will quickly have his garment dipped in blood

Pick any. I'm just trying to start a debate/topic of conversation/interest/etc. lol

Yeah....I disagree. The message of the OT is 'I AM' - God exists. The rest of the OT is humanity's long record of failed attempts to respond to God's Being. The Israelites responded it typical fashion, superstition, war, genocide, nationalism, and grandiosity. God sent Jesus to let us know the proper response - 'love God and your neighbor' It is predictable that the Jewish people did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah because he didn't fit their image of the Messiah who would respond with war.

Ah but God does not contradict Himself. He teaches love in the New Testament but in the Old Testament, there were many instances where God commanded, helped, and even permitted the Israelites to destroy nations.

 

[aspen]

Ah but God does not contradict Himself. He teaches love in the New Testament but in the Old Testament, there were many instances where God commanded, helped, and even permitted the Israelites to destroy nations.

Or so the Israelites believed He commanded them to perform acts of genocide - through their lenses of nationalism. Bush believed we were called by God to crusade against Iraq too. Somehow, I think is is more likely his interpretation. The OT is a history of humanity's misinterpretation of God.

 

[greatkraw]

i think the main thing is that we have a weak soppy concept of God and love

rather than defend him we gotta realise that He defines love nad He defines justice and if we dont agree we got the problem; God knows things we do not

When God ordered Israel to invade the land they were told to wipe out EVERYTHING ALIVE - MAN, WOMAN, CHILD, BEAST

If we knew for instance that they were all plague ridden we might understand it better

They were certainly spiritually plague ridden

 

[aspen]

i think the main thing is that we have a weak soppy concept of God and love

rather than defend him we gotta realise that He defines love nad He defines justice and if we dont agree we got the problem; God knows things we do not

When God ordered Israel to invade the land they were told to wipe out EVERYTHING ALIVE - MAN, WOMAN, CHILD, BEAST

If we knew for instance that they were all plague ridden we might understand it better

They were certainly spiritually plague ridden

If God really commanded these atrocities, He is not worthy of our worship - it would be unethical to worship such a god.

I wouldn't treat an animal as poorly, and I am certainly not Good.

 

[greatkraw]

If God really commanded these atrocities, He is not worthy of our worship - it would be unethical to worship such a god.

I wouldn't treat an animal as poorly, and I am certainly not Good.

are you sayong God is unloving?

God defines love

without God you would not even have the concept

therefore it is you that have the problem

 

[aspen]

are you sayong God is unloving?

Nope, I am saying that I cannot reconcile the loving God I worship and adore, with the inspired, but human, interpretation of God in the OT - big difference. There is simply no way to justify God's behavior in the OT, as interpreted by the writers. I am more merciful, than that guy - and I am certainly no where near as merciful as the God of the universe.

God defines love

Yep! But not through acts of genocide or murder for disobedience, recorded in the OT.

without God you would not even have the concept

Indeed.

therefore it is you that have the problem

We all have problems, my brother

Buddhists and Hindus have a better moral code than the depiction of God in the OT, and I am tired of making lame excuses for that depiction - it simply is not accurate. Israel like the rest of the nations of the world bend God's will to their own purposes. The OT is a cautionary tale for the ages - we can relate to it only in our sinful responses to God's love.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Hindus? You must be joking. They're the ones that were so violent and oppressive towards others that it started Buddhism. Ever heard of the caste system?

 

[aspen]

Hindus? You must be joking. They're the ones that were so violent and oppressive towards others that it started Buddhism. Ever heard of the caste system?

Dude - you are the king of missing the forest for the trees - are you a lumberjack?

 

[Mal316]

Seems like not too long ago someone posted something about what is vs what should be. Perhaps this is another example. The wars of the Israelites against the Canaanites, Perizites, Jebusites, Girgha****es, Hittites and all them other -ites is a record of what happened. It's what was. The Israelites understood their conquest of the land of Israel to be manifest destiny. They believed God told them to wipe out the nations that were in the land because God gave them the land and the nations were practicing all sorts of abominable practices and the land vomited them out. I see no justification for carrying this belief forward today.

Still, it is hard to reconcile this image of a God who orders genocide with the image of God found elsewhere in the OT. Exodus 34:6. Deut 4:31. Nehemiah 9:31. Psalm 51:1. Isaiah 55:7. Daniel 9:9, 18. Micah 7:18.

God's mercy and compassion and grace is from of old. His character of lovingkindness, of long suffering, of extending mercy and grace is to be found in the OT. And if you want a wrathful God you can find Him in the NT as well. John 3:36. Romans 1:16; 2:5; 3:5. Colossians 3:6. Rev 14:10.

 

[karuna]

My view: those other nations were actually doing more than just worshiping another deity - in their worship, they were also sacrificing children, engaging in rape, and all sorts of other things that are detestable. So it is actually just that they were destroyed.

I don't quite understand how the death of large numbers of people is any sort of solution to human sacrifice, rape, and other detestable things. If we're worried that they're doing awful things, it seems like killing the majority of them is just putting a capstone on the tragedy of their lives, not redeeming them in any way. I also don't think it's any sort of divine justice; it's so obviously stinks of human justice.

If a person who says he acts under religious obligations does what any other person would tend to do, I'm pretty sure that the religious person is just an average Joe hiding behind religious vocabulary. In this case, I think it's pretty clear that humans like to wage war. I'm not particularly impressed when someone finds religious reasons to do it.

When someone commits adultery or has multiple wives because "God told them to," we're not fooled. If a person sets fire to their family because they were comitting abominable sins, we tend to think they're mentally ill. Why does killing tribes thousands of years ago get such an easy pass? Because we really, really like the idea of the obviously bad guy getting his due. It's safe to cheer a little, because they were so clearly evil. How fortunate their bones have long since decayed! We wouldn't be nearly as sure of ourselves if we had to look them in the eyes and declare, in our godlike wisdom, that yes, they did deserve to die.

 

[karuna]

Hindus? You must be joking. They're the ones that were so violent and oppressive towards others that it started Buddhism. Ever heard of the caste system?

Buddhism was more a disagreement over the nature of the soul and God than a reaction to violence or the caste system. The sacrificial and caste systems were occasionally points of discourse, but usually only with people who relied heavily on sacrifice or their supposed birthright.

 

[VW]

The topic was brought up from the teen forum - it's an interesting one so I thought I'd re-post it here.

Some people (I'm not picking on people) hold the view that the wars - I assume the ones where Israelis fight and completely destroy their enemies - are contradictory to the love of God.

My view: those other nations were actually doing more than just worshiping another deity - in their worship, they were also sacrificing children, engaging in rape, and all sorts of other things that are detestable. So it is actually just that they were destroyed. But those who were not destroyed are the exceptions within their nations - rare and few in between - but were permitted to defect to the Israeli side (and thus we read where the men had to be circumcised and follow all the laws of the Israelites, etc.). I also believe that cultural differences back then keep us from understanding it because we no longer hold those same views in today's society.

Jesus said something really hard to some of the Jews who were questioning Him. He said that they were of their father the devil. That they were liars just like their father, who was the originator of "The Lie." Of course, they did not like these words very much. They had just claimed to be Abraham's children.

 

[glenwood74]

Numbers 21: 14...The book of the wars of the Lord.

Isaiah 45: 11 & 12....Are you going to be the judge of God and argue with Him about the works of His hands?

Job 38: 2...Who is ignorant enough to question God with their finite human understanding?

Job 40: 8...The Lord asks Job, "Are you going to discredit my justice and condemn me so you can say you are right?"

I urge carefulness to all who would question the works of the Lord and Creator of the universe. We have no fear these days. Proverbs tells us that fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but we have everything we need and we can explain everything we see, so we fear nothing, and that makes us proud and decadent. We should be focused on the commandments of Jesus to love God and to love our neighbor, but we should also remember that God is jealous and when we think that we have it all figured out, there is nothing more God loves to do than to prove Himself God by confounding our human wisdom, like when He sent a carpenter to save the entire world. Who saw that coming?

 

[oopsies]

I don't quite understand how the death of large numbers of people is any sort of solution to human sacrifice, rape, and other detestable things. If we're worried that they're doing awful things, it seems like killing the majority of them is just putting a capstone on the tragedy of their lives, not redeeming them in any way. I also don't think it's any sort of divine justice; it's so obviously stinks of human justice.

If a person who says he acts under religious obligations does what any other person would tend to do, I'm pretty sure that the religious person is just an average Joe hiding behind religious vocabulary. In this case, I think it's pretty clear that humans like to wage war. I'm not particularly impressed when someone finds religious reasons to do it.

When someone commits adultery or has multiple wives because "God told them to," we're not fooled. If a person sets fire to their family because they were comitting abominable sins, we tend to think they're mentally ill. Why does killing tribes thousands of years ago get such an easy pass? Because we really, really like the idea of the obviously bad guy getting his due. It's safe to cheer a little, because they were so clearly evil. How fortunate their bones have long since decayed! We wouldn't be nearly as sure of ourselves if we had to look them in the eyes and declare, in our godlike wisdom, that yes, they did deserve to die.

Ah but that's the thing though - we're looking at this from a 21st century viewpoint. Back then, it is perfectly acceptable and normal. To conquer and to be conquered. Death and living of that sort were daily realities. One nation may suddenly want to expand their land and it would be rightfully just for them to conquer another nation's land. So when God commanded Israel to conquer those lands, He was still working from their beliefs and their cultural framework.

It is like women had no rights 200 years ago and people were perfectly ok with that. Of course, some may not have been happy but for the most part, most women had never known anything beyond what they had - they did not know the freedom that they have today. It wasn't bad nor good for them - the culture was simply that.

As for the complete destruction, that was quite normal too. In the ancient world, to destroy something is to utterly and completely destroy it - including the animals, the fields, everything.

 

[karuna]

I'm a little wary of the idea that society determines what is acceptable by majority vote and more, that God would change his requirements depending on what we are used to.

 

[VW]

Ah but that's the thing though - we're looking at this from a 21st century viewpoint. Back then, it is perfectly acceptable and normal. To conquer and to be conquered. Death and living of that sort were daily realities. One nation may suddenly want to expand their land and it would be rightfully just for them to conquer another nation's land. So when God commanded Israel to conquer those lands, He was still working from their beliefs and their cultural framework.

It is like women had no rights 200 years ago and people were perfectly ok with that. Of course, some may not have been happy but for the most part, most women had never known anything beyond what they had - they did not know the freedom that they have today. It wasn't bad nor good for them - the culture was simply that.

As for the complete destruction, that was quite normal too. In the ancient world, to destroy something is to utterly and completely destroy it - including the animals, the fields, everything.

And so, after several thousand years, we have gotten better? And God has changed?

 

[aspen]

Seems like not too long ago someone posted something about what is vs what should be. Perhaps this is another example. The wars of the Israelites against the Canaanites, Perizites, Jebusites, Girgha****es, Hittites and all them other -ites is a record of what happened. It's what was. The Israelites understood their conquest of the land of Israel to be manifest destiny. They believed God told them to wipe out the nations that were in the land because God gave them the land and the nations were practicing all sorts of abominable practices and the land vomited them out. I see no justification for carrying this belief forward today.

Still, it is hard to reconcile this image of a God who orders genocide with the image of God found elsewhere in the OT. Exodus 34:6. Deut 4:31. Nehemiah 9:31. Psalm 51:1. Isaiah 55:7. Daniel 9:9, 18. Micah 7:18.

God's mercy and compassion and grace is from of old. His character of lovingkindness, of long suffering, of extending mercy and grace is to be found in the OT. And if you want a wrathful God you can find Him in the NT as well. John 3:36. Romans 1:16; 2:5; 3:5. Colossians 3:6. Rev 14:10.

Thought provoking!