Wars in the Bible

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oopsies

Guest
#41
In almost every instance where the Isrealites went to war, God went before them, He declared Himself to be a jealous God. We define God in terms that we are comfortable with and anything that does not fit into our definition we say is not of God. God will always be so much more than even our most expansive view of God.

God is a God of love but he also is a God of wrath. We should embrace His love and fear His wrath.
I like this explanation.
 
J

jesus_be4_religion

Guest
#42
I have to agree that the old testament view of God does not mesh with who Christ showed God to be,Remember Christ said I can only do what my Father does. Christ said forgive them they know not what they do about those who crucified him but the old testament teaches a Vengeful God who glories in destruction of his enemies,that sounds like Satan.When man sinned in the garden God did not destroy them, he only had to make them leave the garden so they would not live forever in their sin.I believe when man gets farther from God in sin they hide in darkness from the protection of God, and thus Satan can destroy them. Its not God doing the destruction in the old testament it is Satan because man got farther from God in sin.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#43
Claiming that humanity has not gotten better as a whole is to claim that God's work in our hearts has made no impact on the world. I agree that the same evil is still in the world and continues to manifest in wars, famines, etc, however, the Spirit's presence in the world has had tremendous impact - their is greater good in the world than ever before.



Most of the events in the Book of Revelation have already occurred - we are simply waiting for Christ's return.



If so, God's sanctification has failed.
We are not of this world. God is not fixing the world now, He will soon, but not now. Now He is saving for Himself a people.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#44
We are not of this world. God is not fixing the world now, He will soon, but not now. Now He is saving for Himself a people.
Sounds like you are claiming that His love is only for a select few. Why then did He tells us to love our neighbors and to love our enemies? Why should we bother to clothed the naked and feed the hungry? If this world is a sinking ship, why invest in the people and care for the environment?
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
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#45
Sounds like you are claiming that His love is only for a select few. Why then did He tells us to love our neighbors and to love our enemies? Why should we bother to clothed the naked and feed the hungry? If this world is a sinking ship, why invest in the people and care for the environment?

Understand that Jesus gave us a new commandment, to love one another even as He has loved us. The commandment you quote is the old commandment. Of the Law.

I did not say that we do not care for people, just not for the world. The world is lost, it will not be saved, but rather destroyed, and created again. The entire world is tainted by and subjected to, sin. And not only the world, but the entire creation. The fall of the first man caused the destruction of everything, and even the heavenly utensiles of worship needed cleansing with the blood of Jesus. The fall ruined everything. Jesus is the restoration of us, and of the creation.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#46
Understand that Jesus gave us a new commandment, to love one another even as He has loved us. The commandment you quote is the old commandment. Of the Law.

I did not say that we do not care for people, just not for the world. The world is lost, it will not be saved, but rather destroyed, and created again. The entire world is tainted by and subjected to, sin. And not only the world, but the entire creation. The fall of the first man caused the destruction of everything, and even the heavenly utensiles of worship needed cleansing with the blood of Jesus. The fall ruined everything. Jesus is the restoration of us, and of the creation.
Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abolish it (Matt 5:17-18).

And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)


Gen 2:15The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


The only difference between loving our neighbor as ourselves (which Jesus ratified as being the greatest commandment) and loving our neighbors as God loves us is the completeness and intensity. Jesus was simply fulfilling the law.


Adam, whose actions in the Garden apply to all humanity - notably the behavior and consequences of the Fall, was commanded by God to take care of the land.



Finally, why would God ask us to invest in our neighbors and His creation if none of it mattered?
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#48
Jesus came to fulfill the law not to abolish it (Matt 5:17-18).

And one of the scribes came and heard them arguing, and recognizing that He had answered them well, asked Him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:28-31)


Gen 2:15The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.


The only difference between loving our neighbor as ourselves (which Jesus ratified as being the greatest commandment) and loving our neighbors as God loves us is the completeness and intensity. Jesus was simply fulfilling the law.


Adam, whose actions in the Garden apply to all humanity - notably the behavior and consequences of the Fall, was commanded by God to take care of the land.



Finally, why would God ask us to invest in our neighbors and His creation if none of it mattered?
Jesus was talking to people with ears who could not hear. He gave a new commandment, which is not like the first commandment. Jesus said that he who loves his life looses it and he who hates his life will find it to life eternal. It is said that we should love ourselves, but this is not a part of the knowledge of Jesus. We do not, cannot understand the full state of our depravity until we see the cross for what it was, is, and will be. I know from seeing the cross that I was completely ruined, not lovable at all, and I do not love what I was, and the only love that I have for myself is what Jesus has done as a new creature, in God. And that is of the new commandment, not the old. There is no patch on people, or on the world, it all must be created new.
 
M

Mal316

Guest
#49
I think we have to be careful of making God in our image. The old line is, "God made man in His image and mankind has been returning the favor ever since." Mankind is violent, vengeful, bloodthirsty, lustful, petty, jealous. We put these attributes on God and say that wars or genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is justified because after all, we're created in His image. He made us this way and we're only following His example of commanding destruction of people that are different from us.

When will people take responsibility for their atrocious behavior and stop blaming God? The conquest of the land of Canaan whereby the Israelites believed God told them to wipe out men, women, children and livestock cannot be justified or rationalized away by saying God commanded such violent behavior. As a record of what happened, of history, of a violent warlike culture, it's easier to understand, but no less troubling.

I would like to think that the human race has evolved ethically and morally and understands that genocide is not acceptable. Murder of other people because they don't think, dress, talk, eat, worship, believe like you do is not acceptable. It is not love for neighbors that makes people murder in the Name of God. That is taking God's Name in vain.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#50
In almost every instance where the Isrealites went to war, God went before them, He declared Himself to be a jealous God. We define God in terms that we are comfortable with and anything that does not fit into our definition we say is not of God. God will always be so much more than even our most expansive view of God.

God is a God of love but he also is a God of wrath. We should embrace His love and fear His wrath.
I think it is interesting as I am only able to find one instance, the Amelekites, where he actually commanded them to destroy an entire nation, and they always started it. There were times when he ordered the destruction of an entire city, Jericho, but not as much as seem assumed by this thread.
 
May 21, 2009
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#51
Maybe you can think on terms of the people were filled with demons. Even the animals were filled with demons. The people were given the change to serve the on and only true God. Instead they chose to worship satan. God knows what he is doing and you didn't create the universe, God did. I would be very careful of what I say agaisnt God.
 
M

Mal316

Guest
#52
You shall destroy all the peoples that the Lord your God delivers to you, showing them no pity. And you shall not worship their gods, for that would be a snare to you.....The Lord your God will deliver them up to you, throwing them into utter panic until they are wiped out. He will deliver their kings into your hand, and you shall obliterate their name from under the heavens; no man shall stand up to you, until you have wiped them out. Deut 7:16, 23, 24 (Emphasis added)
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
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#53
I think it is interesting as I am only able to find one instance, the Amelekites, where he actually commanded them to destroy an entire nation, and they always started it. There were times when he ordered the destruction of an entire city, Jericho, but not as much as seem assumed by this thread.

Weren't the cities actually states at that time? And once they had crossed into the promised land, and destroyed Jericho, weren't they commanded to utterly destroy all of the city/states in the promised land? And did not one of the tribes get in trouble for keeping some animals from one of the city/states?

I seem to remember that.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#54
You shall destroy all the peoples that the Lord your God delivers to you, showing them no pity. And you shall not worship their gods, for that would be a snare to you.....The Lord your God will deliver them up to you, throwing them into utter panic until they are wiped out. He will deliver their kings into your hand, and you shall obliterate their name from under the heavens; no man shall stand up to you, until you have wiped them out. Deut 7:16, 23, 24 (Emphasis added)
Deut 7:1 "When the Lord your God shall bring you into the land where you are entering to possess, shall clear away many nations before you...
Deut 7:22 And the Lord, your God will clear away these nations before you little by little; you will not be able too put an end to them quickly, lest the wild beasts grow too numerous for you.
How would you account for these sister passages? I believe that only those nations who stubbornly resisted God's will to move would be wiped out. The only "native" residents were the Canaanites, the others where transplants and transients.
 
C

charisenexcelcis

Guest
#55
Weren't the cities actually states at that time? And once they had crossed into the promised land, and destroyed Jericho, weren't they commanded to utterly destroy all of the city/states in the promised land? And did not one of the tribes get in trouble for keeping some animals from one of the city/states?

I seem to remember that.
Jericho was to be a complete anathema, nothing taken, everything destroyed. The other cities, I don't think so much...Nations were cultural and crossed the city-state lines.
I look at the sparing of Edom, Moab, and Ammon. Then the eastern kingdoms attacked Israel rather than allowing them to pass through.
After the taking of Canaan, only the Amelekites that I can see. (Previous post seemed to nail down the "complete destruction" within Canaan, though not positively.)
 
Feb 17, 2010
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#56
I thought Edom, Moab, and Ammon were spared against G-d's command to wipe out all the peoples and nations before them? I seem to remember the Israelites sparing Moab, Edom, and Ammon as being an act of disobedience.
 
Feb 3, 2010
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#57
Jesus was talking to people with ears who could not hear. He gave a new commandment, which is not like the first commandment. Jesus said that he who loves his life looses it and he who hates his life will find it to life eternal. It is said that we should love ourselves, but this is not a part of the knowledge of Jesus. We do not, cannot understand the full state of our depravity until we see the cross for what it was, is, and will be. I know from seeing the cross that I was completely ruined, not lovable at all, and I do not love what I was, and the only love that I have for myself is what Jesus has done as a new creature, in God. And that is of the new commandment, not the old. There is no patch on people, or on the world, it all must be created new.
The new commandment fulfills the old.
 
Feb 3, 2010
1,238
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#58
I think we have to be careful of making God in our image. The old line is, "God made man in His image and mankind has been returning the favor ever since." Mankind is violent, vengeful, bloodthirsty, lustful, petty, jealous. We put these attributes on God and say that wars or genocide or "ethnic cleansing" is justified because after all, we're created in His image. He made us this way and we're only following His example of commanding destruction of people that are different from us.

When will people take responsibility for their atrocious behavior and stop blaming God? The conquest of the land of Canaan whereby the Israelites believed God told them to wipe out men, women, children and livestock cannot be justified or rationalized away by saying God commanded such violent behavior. As a record of what happened, of history, of a violent warlike culture, it's easier to understand, but no less troubling.

I would like to think that the human race has evolved ethically and morally and understands that genocide is not acceptable. Murder of other people because they don't think, dress, talk, eat, worship, believe like you do is not acceptable. It is not love for neighbors that makes people murder in the Name of God. That is taking God's Name in vain.

Wow! outstanding!