Was Abraham's covenant with God conditional or unconditional?

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Jan 12, 2019
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#1
I have been pondering about this recently and would like to seek views from everyone here.

Whether Abraham's covenant with God was conditional or unconditional can be tricky to conclude without bias from your favorite church doctrine.

Genesis 12: Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12 seems to indicate a conditional covenant. By grace Abraham was chosen by God to channel his blessings but by faith, Abraham have to move to a new land that God called him to, this was confirmed by the account in Hebrews 11:8.

Genesis 15 is the unconditional covenant that everyone believes.

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 17 clearly indicates a conditional covenant. Abraham and his descendants must circumcise themselves

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

This was conditional too, Abraham must circumcise himself and everyone else (ouch to do that at his age v24), if he does that then the good news is contained in vs 6-8 will be for him and his descendants.

Genesis 22 seems to also indicate a conditional covenant, the favorite one used by James chapter 2

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

James used this to argue that, like Abraham, a man is justified by his works.

Given all this scriptural account, without any church doctrine bias as I have stated, it is easier to conclude that the covenant God cut with Abraham was conditional or unconditional?
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#2
I have been pondering about this recently and would like to seek views from everyone here.

Whether Abraham's covenant with God was conditional or unconditional can be tricky to conclude without bias from your favorite church doctrine.

Genesis 12: Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12 seems to indicate a conditional covenant. By grace Abraham was chosen by God to channel his blessings but by faith, Abraham have to move to a new land that God called him to, this was confirmed by the account in Hebrews 11:8.

Genesis 15 is the unconditional covenant that everyone believes.

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 17 clearly indicates a conditional covenant. Abraham and his descendants must circumcise themselves

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

This was conditional too, Abraham must circumcise himself and everyone else (ouch to do that at his age v24), if he does that then the good news is contained in vs 6-8 will be for him and his descendants.

Genesis 22 seems to also indicate a conditional covenant, the favorite one used by James chapter 2

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

James used this to argue that, like Abraham, a man is justified by his works.

Given all this scriptural account, without any church doctrine bias as I have stated, it is easier to conclude that the covenant God cut with Abraham was conditional or unconditional?
If Abraham had stop keeping GODs Commandments and GODs saying ,It would have been conditional, But he didn't fall.
How many times did HE say to ISAREAL that he was going to bless , and they would end up getting curse, Because they Fall,
GOD dose not bless in disobedience.
 

EternalFire

Well-known member
Jan 3, 2019
639
338
63
#3
I have been pondering about this recently and would like to seek views from everyone here.

Whether Abraham's covenant with God was conditional or unconditional can be tricky to conclude without bias from your favorite church doctrine.

Genesis 12: Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12 seems to indicate a conditional covenant. By grace Abraham was chosen by God to channel his blessings but by faith, Abraham have to move to a new land that God called him to, this was confirmed by the account in Hebrews 11:8.

Genesis 15 is the unconditional covenant that everyone believes.

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 17 clearly indicates a conditional covenant. Abraham and his descendants must circumcise themselves

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

This was conditional too, Abraham must circumcise himself and everyone else (ouch to do that at his age v24), if he does that then the good news is contained in vs 6-8 will be for him and his descendants.

Genesis 22 seems to also indicate a conditional covenant, the favorite one used by James chapter 2

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

James used this to argue that, like Abraham, a man is justified by his works.

Given all this scriptural account, without any church doctrine bias as I have stated, it is easier to conclude that the covenant God cut with Abraham was conditional or unconditional?
Romans 11:28-29 (ESV)
As regards the gospel, they [Israel] are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they [Israel] are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#4
If Abraham had stop keeping GODs Commandments and GODs saying ,It would have been conditional, But he didn't fall.
How many times did HE say to ISAREAL that he was going to bless , and they would end up getting curse, Because they Fall,
GOD dose not bless in disobedience.
What do you think of the Genesis account where Abraham deliberately let 2 Pharaohs thought Sarah was not his wife?
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#6
She was his haft sister, But HE did deceive
Genesis 20:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice' my commandments in my statute, and my laws,
And this dose mean that , GODs commandments go way back before Moses, LIKE at CREATION, And dose.
Believe GOD had to work with Abraham as well as HE dose us,
GOOD night to all AND GOD bless as HE sees fit
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,704
3,649
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#7
How many times did HE say to ISAREAL that he was going to bless , and they would end up getting curse, Because they Fall,
GOD dose not bless in disobedience.
I thought the topic was the Abrahamic Covenant...not the Mosaic.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#8
I thought the topic was the Abrahamic Covenant...not the Mosaic.
Believe it or not , WE are all save by GRACE, by faith Noah built the ark, some By FAITH , And some through FAITH, IF GOD CHANGED then he could SAVE SOME different then others BUT GOD DOSE NOT CHANGE, And HE is NOT going to treat us no BETTER THEN THEM, GOD DOSE NOT look OVER sin ,SIN is just as wrong FOR us as it was for them.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
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#9
Abraham is the first man to receive the Gospel. He believed God and obeyed when God told him to do something. To leave his country and king, to believe he would dhave a child of his own blood, and to offer up Isaac believe Isaac would yet father his future line and be the forefather of nations.

All the above was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness, not what he did, but that he believed God. So he was saved by his faith, not by his works yet God gave him works and he obeyed.

All children of Abraham will do the same, amen.
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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#11
Abraham is the first man to receive the Gospel. He believed God and obeyed when God told him to do something. To leave his country and king, to believe he would dhave a child of his own blood, and to offer up Isaac believe Isaac would yet father his future line and be the forefather of nations.

All the above was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness, not what he did, but that he believed God. So he was saved by his faith, not by his works yet God gave him works and he obeyed.

All children of Abraham will do the same, amen.
True, this is the standard church doctrine that we are taught.

Do you find, however, Chapter 17 difficult to fit into this doctrine? Could Abraham have declined to undergo circumcision? And if he does, would the promises been revoked, as what vs14 seem to be implying?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
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#12
Reading the NT we find both Jesus and Paul teach we become children of Abraham, having become heirs with Israel, that is to say, having become Israel.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#13
She was his haft sister, But HE did deceive
So if you agree he deceive both Pharaohs, at different time periods, can Abraham be said to have obeyed all of God's commandments?
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
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#14
The law was given 200 years after Abraham.

Abraham believed God, and he received dthe Gospel from Him. His guilt was not imputed agains him if you read all of the Word you will learn this. Psalm 32 is helpful, not to mention our Gospel from Jesus, Yeshua.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
21,196
6,509
113
#15
True, this is the standard church doctrine that we are taught.

Do you find, however, Chapter 17 difficult to fit into this doctrine? Could Abraham have declined to undergo circumcision? And if he does, would the promises been revoked, as what vs14 seem to be implying?
Do you understand the Abraham believed God? If you do then you understand he would always do what He believed God wanted him to do. The actual law came long after Abraham.
 
Jan 4, 2020
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washburn Tn
#16
Abraham is the first man to receive the Gospel. He believed God and obeyed when God told him to do something. To leave his country and king, to believe he would dhave a child of his own blood, and to offer up Isaac believe Isaac would yet father his future line and be the forefather of nations.

All the above was reckoned to Abraham as righteousness, not what he did, but that he believed God. So he was saved by his faith, not by his works yet God gave him works and he obeyed.

All children of Abraham will do the same, amen.

That like saying you will be saved with out works, Satan has more faith then us , And it not GOING to save HIM, You can have as MUCH faith as Satan And still Go right in the LAKE OF FIRE, Faith & obedience To be save, Faith without works is dead. So it takes Faith & obedience, But the obedience comes after you have believed, we are not saved as long as we continue in sin.
IT take faith alone to save us, But it takes the Obedience to quit sinning, AND we are not going to go to heaven as long as we have not repented of our sins, for as long as we continue in sin, and know it, is called rebellion, The BIBLE says that rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft, 1 Samuel 15:23,
2 Peter 2:24 Having eyes full of adultery, And that can not cease From sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children. They are called cursed children, because they would not cease from sin.
James 2:21, was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar ?
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#17
Do you understand the Abraham believed God? If you do then you understand he would always do what He believed God wanted him to do. The actual law came long after Abraham.
So in your view, would you consider ch17 covenant to be conditional?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,167
12,764
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#18
Whether Abraham's covenant with God was conditional or unconditional can be tricky to conclude without bias from your favorite church doctrine.
The Abrahamic Covenant was unconditional. We see this in Genesis 15. God did not say "if" "then".

17 And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. 18 In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:

Abraham did absolutely nothing to deserve God's grace and mercy, nor His covenant. In fact he stumbled a few times. But because Abraham believed God it was imputed to him as righteousness.
 
Jan 17, 2020
4,792
736
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#19
I have been pondering about this recently and would like to seek views from everyone here.

Whether Abraham's covenant with God was conditional or unconditional can be tricky to conclude without bias from your favorite church doctrine.

Genesis 12: Now the Lord had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land that I will shew thee:

2 And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:

3 And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

Genesis 12 seems to indicate a conditional covenant. By grace Abraham was chosen by God to channel his blessings but by faith, Abraham have to move to a new land that God called him to, this was confirmed by the account in Hebrews 11:8.

Genesis 15 is the unconditional covenant that everyone believes.

Genesis 15
After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?

3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.

5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

Genesis 17 clearly indicates a conditional covenant. Abraham and his descendants must circumcise themselves

And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the Lord appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.

2 And I will make my covenant between me and thee, and will multiply thee exceedingly.

3 And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying,

4 As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations.

5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.

6 And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee.

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.

8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.

9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised.

13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

24 And Abraham was ninety years old and nine, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old, when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.

26 In the selfsame day was Abraham circumcised, and Ishmael his son.

27 And all the men of his house, born in the house, and bought with money of the stranger, were circumcised with him.

This was conditional too, Abraham must circumcise himself and everyone else (ouch to do that at his age v24), if he does that then the good news is contained in vs 6-8 will be for him and his descendants.

Genesis 22 seems to also indicate a conditional covenant, the favorite one used by James chapter 2

16 And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:

17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

18 And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.

James used this to argue that, like Abraham, a man is justified by his works.

Given all this scriptural account, without any church doctrine bias as I have stated, it is easier to conclude that the covenant God cut with Abraham was conditional or unconditional?
Viewed from a NT understanding of the New Birth (Circumcised heart), I believe the promise to Abraham was unconditional. And his obedience came from the nature of the new birth. In a rightful motive of love for God. But for those not born again, the majority, but only circumcised, it is clearly stated as conditional throughout the OT. Also proven when God broke off the unbelievers from Israel leaving only the believers in Romans 11.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,696
113
#20
Reading the NT we find both Jesus and Paul teach we become children of Abraham, having become heirs with Israel, that is to say, having become Israel.
Ephesians 2
2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
2:14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition [between us];
2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
2:16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
2:17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
2:20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner [stone];
2:21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.