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D
One should have no interest in anything other than the heart of Our Father.
You know what's interesting, when Judah went astray under the leadership of several tree hugging, asherah pole worshiping chumps that barely resembled Kings; the only thing that brough them back to the true worship was - ermmm let me see.....dogma - no....doctrine - no. Oh wait, hold on it was done with the "fear of the Lord, faithfully with a PERFECT HEART"
If you want scripture, ask! Every contention I make is supported for those who want to seek the HEART OF OUR GOD!
You know what's interesting, when Judah went astray under the leadership of several tree hugging, asherah pole worshiping chumps that barely resembled Kings; the only thing that brough them back to the true worship was - ermmm let me see.....dogma - no....doctrine - no. Oh wait, hold on it was done with the "fear of the Lord, faithfully with a PERFECT HEART"
If you want scripture, ask! Every contention I make is supported for those who want to seek the HEART OF OUR GOD!
D
Semantics - doctrine in practice is what I believe vs what you believe. Note that I have chosen my words very carefully. If we defined things the way they were meant, and acted accordingly we would all be singing kumbya holding hands. Let's be real, not idealists when it calls for it please!
Cards on the table you say, my only response is those who have eyes to see, let them see!
Cards on the table you say, my only response is those who have eyes to see, let them see!
D
Its nothing new under the sun and I am amazed that you would think that doctrine is more important than the heart of God. Santo I take it that you are Catholic and if that is the case then there is no point in commenting any further because your doctrine would be set in stone.
It seems to me that this has left the original topic which is more important than any doctrine. If doctrine was so great we would all be following the Jewish way of life to the letter. Do not think that Christians have brought anything new it seems to me that even with all of the freedom we have managed to do exactly what Israel did....
Shalom/blessings
It seems to me that this has left the original topic which is more important than any doctrine. If doctrine was so great we would all be following the Jewish way of life to the letter. Do not think that Christians have brought anything new it seems to me that even with all of the freedom we have managed to do exactly what Israel did....
Shalom/blessings
S
Your right about my doctrine being set in stone, there is very little up for debate in the Catholic faith, and I trust God and His holy Church. But I do not think that doctrine somehow obscures God or the seeking of God, in fact it aids it. But Americans are individualistic and American Christianity (and their sister churches abroad) reflects this. Thats why I like Catholicism it's not about I it's about the community.
And IMHO church shopping is the biggest example of this individualistic streak.
Doctrine is necessary, otherwise anyone could lawfully lay claim to the title of Christian even when they clearly are not Christian (Mormons for example). Without doctrine Christianity would become a "believe whatever you want" religion.
Besides everyone including you has doctrine. The only difference between my doctrine and your doctrine is that you believe your personal doctrine while I believe the Church's doctrine.
And IMHO church shopping is the biggest example of this individualistic streak.
Doctrine is necessary, otherwise anyone could lawfully lay claim to the title of Christian even when they clearly are not Christian (Mormons for example). Without doctrine Christianity would become a "believe whatever you want" religion.
Besides everyone including you has doctrine. The only difference between my doctrine and your doctrine is that you believe your personal doctrine while I believe the Church's doctrine.
D
With the Catholic track record I hardly think you should have reason to downplay other types of christians. If you want to follow Rome that is your God given right. I choose to follow God and it seems to me that my rejection of the pope causes you offence which I do not mean to do but I will stand by what I say. There is nothing wrong with God's doctrine but mans is flawed which is why you should never follow man when it comes to your salvation.
sorry cant dwell on this as I am about to leave work
sorry cant dwell on this as I am about to leave work
S
I'm not downplaying other Christians, I brought up one well known problem with American Christianity, and I mentioned that Mormons were outside the realm of Christian orthodoxy. But I'm curious, whats this Catholic track record you speak of?
I follow God as well, and no your rejection of the Pope does not offend me, I think your wrong in doing so, but it doesn't offend me.
I don't follow men. I follow God and the holy Church which He established.
I follow God as well, and no your rejection of the Pope does not offend me, I think your wrong in doing so, but it doesn't offend me.
I don't follow men. I follow God and the holy Church which He established.
D
History is not my teacher, and neither is the church - the Almighty is! History is God's teaching assistant. The church (church in the wider sense, not just RC), what I can say is that the role it has played in recent history is debatable.
You made an interesting assertion; something to the effect of the church that God established.
I know for a fact what God established was NOT an institution but a way back to his heart and away from the incident in Eden and all that the actions undertaken by Adam and Eve embodied. I hope what I have just said is clear!
The message preached from Adam to today HAS NOT CHANGED. I take umbrage with people/institutions/thought processes that imply God has changed his message. His messengers have changed out of necessity because of death. But, the message has been the same!
Nothing new under the sun - very relevant because you always have a group of people distinguishing themselves as the unique carriers of God's message over and above everyone else! That message is usually creatively different to the one the 1st and 2nd Adam taught!
You made an interesting assertion; something to the effect of the church that God established.
I know for a fact what God established was NOT an institution but a way back to his heart and away from the incident in Eden and all that the actions undertaken by Adam and Eve embodied. I hope what I have just said is clear!
The message preached from Adam to today HAS NOT CHANGED. I take umbrage with people/institutions/thought processes that imply God has changed his message. His messengers have changed out of necessity because of death. But, the message has been the same!
Nothing new under the sun - very relevant because you always have a group of people distinguishing themselves as the unique carriers of God's message over and above everyone else! That message is usually creatively different to the one the 1st and 2nd Adam taught!
S
Everyone should be learning from history; the Bible doesn't cover everything you know. As for the church (lowercase refers to the broader community of Christians and uppercase refers specifically to the RCC), it will always have a substantial impact on history if for no other reason than that it shaped the thinking of the people who attended it.
It makes infinitely more sense for God to establish an institution to preserve the faith, teach the faith, and protect it from heretics; than it does for Him to have given us a vague "way" where diverse doctrinal discord is acceptable.
I don't believe I said the message has changed.
Assuming that the first part is referring to the RCC, We have kept the faith handed down to us since the beginning, and since we can trace back our roots to the Apostles, we have a legitimate claim as preservers of the truth. What really irks me though is conversations like I heard the other day while I was sitting at Starbucks and working on a paper. Two men were sitting in front of me and talking and both had Bibles out, one said to the other "God showed me something while I was reading the Bible, and I believe he gave me understanding to restore the ancient Christian faith". He then proceeded to espouse Arianism, and honestly it made me want to stand up and yell "You haven't discovered anything new your just retelling an old heresy".
Thats what amazes me about modern Protestantism, somehow it's managed to give birth to all the old heresies all over again; like Modalism (UPC), Judaizers (Messianic Judaism), Nestorianism (virtually every Evangelical/non-Mainline Protestant denomination), Arianism (Arian catholic church nad the Polish Brethren), Unitarianism (JWs and untold numbers of others), and things as far afield as Mormonism
To clarify the Arianism example; The Arian catholic church was never in anyway tied to the Roman Catholic Church. It was started by a Protestant minister who sought to restore the ancient church and basically took the Sacramental theology of the church fathers and mixed it with Arianism.
It makes infinitely more sense for God to establish an institution to preserve the faith, teach the faith, and protect it from heretics; than it does for Him to have given us a vague "way" where diverse doctrinal discord is acceptable.
I don't believe I said the message has changed.
Assuming that the first part is referring to the RCC, We have kept the faith handed down to us since the beginning, and since we can trace back our roots to the Apostles, we have a legitimate claim as preservers of the truth. What really irks me though is conversations like I heard the other day while I was sitting at Starbucks and working on a paper. Two men were sitting in front of me and talking and both had Bibles out, one said to the other "God showed me something while I was reading the Bible, and I believe he gave me understanding to restore the ancient Christian faith". He then proceeded to espouse Arianism, and honestly it made me want to stand up and yell "You haven't discovered anything new your just retelling an old heresy".
Thats what amazes me about modern Protestantism, somehow it's managed to give birth to all the old heresies all over again; like Modalism (UPC), Judaizers (Messianic Judaism), Nestorianism (virtually every Evangelical/non-Mainline Protestant denomination), Arianism (Arian catholic church nad the Polish Brethren), Unitarianism (JWs and untold numbers of others), and things as far afield as Mormonism
To clarify the Arianism example; The Arian catholic church was never in anyway tied to the Roman Catholic Church. It was started by a Protestant minister who sought to restore the ancient church and basically took the Sacramental theology of the church fathers and mixed it with Arianism.