What did the Church teach historically about the second coming?

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Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#21
The better question is what is the reason people can't decipher the bible?
Opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture seem to have been snared by Satan, since this event is also an expression of God's grace (which Satan hates). You will note that all kinds of attacks on individuals such as Darby, Scofield, etc. are the norm, rather than presenting any Scripture to refute the Pre-Trib Rapture. We need to remember that the Rapture has been imminent, and that even the Christians of the 1st century expect Christ to come for His saints.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
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#22
Opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture seem to have been snared by Satan

interesting viewpoint:unsure: I am sure all Christians believe in Christs second coming, but pre trib rapture.. that was invented in the 1800's.. Exciting, but then, so is reading science fiction.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#23
Opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture seem to have been snared by Satan, since this event is also an expression of God's grace (which Satan hates). You will note that all kinds of attacks on individuals such as Darby, Scofield, etc. are the norm, rather than presenting any Scripture to refute the Pre-Trib Rapture. We need to remember that the Rapture has been imminent, and that even the Christians of the 1st century expect Christ to come for His saints.
Nehemiah, you have drunk the pre-tib Kool-Aid and nothing anyone does or says will convince you otherwise. If you want to believe pre-trib nonsense then go right ahead, but don't be dishonest by saying you just need to see scripture; you couldn't care less about scripture. I recently posted a two-hour documentary about the rapture with scripture galore and you seem unmoved by any of it.
 

Aaron56

Active member
Jul 12, 2021
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#24
Gee, the cannon of NT was made in 399 AD, should we also distrust the Bible since it was the Church Fathers made copies of the NT?
The books were already completed and in circulation by that time.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#25
Nehemiah, you have drunk the pre-tib Kool-Aid and nothing anyone does or says will convince you otherwise. If you want to believe pre-trib nonsense then go right ahead, but don't be dishonest by saying you just need to see scripture; you couldn't care less about scripture. I recently posted a two-hour documentary about the rapture with scripture galore and you seem unmoved by any of it.
1. I do not drink any kind of Kool Aid. Since you are relatively new here, you need to hear that.

2. I do not watch posted videos either. So I did not respond to the documentary.

3. If you actually have a Scripture to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, kindly post it. If not, we know that any other view is pure conjecture.

4. The word "church" or "churches" does not occur in Revelation after chapter 3. And Revelation is an overview of both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. What we see in Revelation 7:14 is the Church in Heaven (without being named as such). These have "come out of" the Great Tribulation and one of the meanings given for "out of" by Thayer is "of any kind of separation or dissolution of connection with a thing or person".
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#26
but pre trib rapture.. that was invented in the 1800's...
Another fantasy which has been refuted many times. See John 14:1-3 which was stated in AD 30 by Christ Himself. No connection to any Tribulation.

And several of the Early Church Fathers (long before Darby) believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Below is a quote from Ephraim (Ephrem) the Syrian (4th century):
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#27
The Rapture is Pre Trib, however, you desire to TWIST it isn't going g to stop God from His pre-trib Rapture. The better question is what is the reason people can't decipher the bible? I see it as a Holy Spirit problem.
The human traditions of various schools of thought on the topic at hand.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
3,594
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#28
Opponents of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture seem to have been snared by Satan, since this event is also an expression of God's grace (which Satan hates). You will note that all kinds of attacks on individuals such as Darby, Scofield, etc. are the norm, rather than presenting any Scripture to refute the Pre-Trib Rapture. We need to remember that the Rapture has been imminent, and that even the Christians of the 1st century expect Christ to come for His saints.
https://dokumen.tips/documents/the-incredible-scofield-and-his-book-joseph-m-canfield-1988.html
https://dc.etsu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2571&context=etd
 

rayzor

Well-known member
Aug 20, 2021
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#29
If i b lifted up from the earth i will draw all man onto me.
 

TheLearner

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Jan 14, 2019
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#30
The books were already completed and in circulation by that time.
So were other books like the Shepard of Hermas, Didache and so on that were considered scripture by some. Those books were also quoted as being Scripture too.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/carthage.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon8.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance Reprint Edition
by Bruce M. Metzger (Author)

The Canon of Scripture Oct 31, 1988
by F. F. Bruce

https://www.amazon.com/F-F-Bruce/e/...3b947ea78fd&pd_rd_wg=Sgv0S&pd_rd_i=0385025335
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#31
1. I do not drink any kind of Kool Aid. Since you are relatively new here, you need to hear that.

2. I do not watch posted videos either. So I did not respond to the documentary.

3. If you actually have a Scripture to refute the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, kindly post it. If not, we know that any other view is pure conjecture.

4. The word "church" or "churches" does not occur in Revelation after chapter 3. And Revelation is an overview of both the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation. What we see in Revelation 7:14 is the Church in Heaven (without being named as such). These have "come out of" the Great Tribulation and one of the meanings given for "out of" by Thayer is "of any kind of separation or dissolution of connection with a thing or person".
  1. Revelation 5:8
    And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  2. Revelation 8:3
    And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  3. Revelation 8:4
    And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  4. Revelation 11:18
    And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  5. Revelation 13:7
    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  6. Revelation 13:10
    He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  7. Revelation 14:12
    Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  8. Revelation 15:3
    And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  9. Revelation 16:6
    For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  10. Revelation 17:6
    And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  11. Revelation 18:24
    And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  12. Revelation 19:8
    And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
    In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
  13. Revelation 20:9
    And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 22:16
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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#32
What did the Church teach historically about the second coming?

I have the early christian writings outside the NT.
Luke 21 (Imparts the second advent has already occurred)
Either way, it's always a fascinating discussion. :giggle:
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#33
Another fantasy which has been refuted many times. See John 14:1-3 which was stated in AD 30 by Christ Himself. No connection to any Tribulation.

And several of the Early Church Fathers (long before Darby) believed in the Pre-Tribulation Rapture. Below is a quote from Ephraim (Ephrem) the Syrian (4th century):
"We ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already there have been hunger and plagues, violent movements of nations and signs, which have been predicted by the Lord, they have already been fulfilled (consummated), and there is not other which remains, except the advent of the wicked one in the completion of the Roman kingdom. Why therefore are we occupied with worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of worldly business, and why is our mind held fixed on the lusts of the world or on the anxieties of the ages? Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? Believe you me, dearest brother, because the coming (advent) of the Lord is nigh, believe you me, because the end of the world is at hand, believe me, because it is the very last time. Or do you not believe unless you see with your eyes? See to it that this sentence be not fulfilled among you of the prophet who declares: “Woe to those who desire to see the day of the Lord!” For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.
I googled ""we ought to understand thoroughly therefore, my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging"" at newadvent.org that quote does not appear in the known church fathers. However, what does occur in the false writings you refereed to is "All the saints and elect of God are gathered together before the tribulation, which is to come, and are taken to the Lord, in order that they may not see at any time the confusion which overwhelms the world because of our sins. –Pseudo-Ephraem (c. 374-627) " https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=pretrib_arch

" Who is Pseudo-Ephraem? The word "Pseudo" (Greek for false) is a prefix attached by scholars to the name of a famous historical person or book of the Bible when one writes using that name. Pseudo-Ephraem claims that his sermon was written by Ephraem of Nisibis (306-73), considered to be the greatest figure in the history of the Syrian church. He was well-known for his poetics, rejection of rationalism, and confrontations with the heresies of Marcion, Mani, and the Arians. As a poet, exegete, and theologian, his style was similar to that of the Jewish midrashic and targumic traditions and he favored a contemplative approach to spirituality. "

https://digitalcommons.liberty.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1031&context=pretrib_arch

Not exactly a writing from inside the church as official.

In case I missed your quote:
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog...anuscripts-the-passage-and-its-greek-origins/
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/eq/2008-2_143.pdf
https://www.roger-pearse.com/weblog...anuscripts-the-passage-and-its-greek-origins/
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
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#35
Luke 21
NET Bible Par ▾
The Widow’s Offering
1Jesus looked up and saw the rich putting their gifts into the offering box. 2He also saw a poor widow put in two small copper coins. 3He said, “I tell you the truth, this poor widow has put in more than all of them. 4For they all offered their gifts out of their wealth. But she, out of her poverty, put in everything she had to live on.”
The Signs of the End of the Age
5Now while some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and offerings, Jesus said, 6“As for these things that you are gazing at, the days will come when not one stone will be left on another. All will be torn down!” 7So they asked him, “Teacher, when will these things happen? And what will be the sign that these things are about to take place?” 8He said, “Watch out that you are not misled. For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am he,’ and, ‘The time is near.’ Do not follow them! 9And when you hear of wars and rebellions, do not be afraid. For these things must happen first, but the end will not come at once.”
Persecution of Disciples
10Then he said to them, “Nation will rise up in arms against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 11There will be great earthquakes, and famines and plagues in various places, and there will be terrifying sights and great signs from heaven. 12But before all this, they will seize you and persecute you, handing you over to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and governors because of my name. 13This will be a time for you to serve as witnesses. 14Therefore be resolved not to rehearse ahead of time how to make your defense. 15For I will give you the words along with the wisdom that none of your adversaries will be able to withstand or contradict. 16You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers, relatives, and friends, and they will have some of you put to death. 17You will be hated by everyone because of my name. 18Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19By your endurance you will gain your lives.
The Desolation of Jerusalem
20“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. Those who are inside the city must depart. Those who are out in the country must not enter it, 22because these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing their babies in those days! For there will be great distress on the earth and wrath against this people. 24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led away as captives among all nations. Jerusalem will be trampled down by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
The Arrival of the Son of Man
25“And there will be signs in the sun and moon and stars, and on the earth nations will be in distress, anxious over the roaring of the sea and the surging waves. 26People will be fainting from fear and from the expectation of what is coming on the world, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 27Then they will see the Son of Man arriving in a cloud with power and great glory. 28But when these things begin to happen, stand up and raise your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”
The Parable of the Fig Tree
29Then he told them a parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the other trees. 30When they sprout leaves, you see for yourselves and know that summer is now near. 31So also you, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32I tell you the truth, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. 33Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Be Ready!
34“But be on your guard so that your hearts are not weighed down with dissipation and drunkenness and the worries of this life, and that day close down upon you suddenly like a trap. 35For it will overtake all who live on the face of the whole earth. 36But stay alert at all times, praying that you may have strength to escape all these things that must happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”
37So every day Jesus was teaching in the temple courts, but at night he went and stayed on the Mount of Olives. 38And all the people came to him early in the morning to listen to him in the temple courts.
 

Aaron56

Active member
Jul 12, 2021
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#36
So were other books like the Shepard of Hermas, Didache and so on that were considered scripture by some. Those books were also quoted as being Scripture too.

http://www.bible-researcher.com/carthage.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon8.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon.html
http://www.bible-researcher.com/canon5.html

The Canon of the New Testament: Its Origin, Development, and Significance Reprint Edition
by Bruce M. Metzger (Author)

The Canon of Scripture Oct 31, 1988
by F. F. Bruce

https://www.amazon.com/F-F-Bruce/e/...3b947ea78fd&pd_rd_wg=Sgv0S&pd_rd_i=0385025335
Of course.
 

AandW

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Jun 9, 2021
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#37
um just because Polycarp ((just like the apostles before him)) gives advice about day to day living, to strive to live righteously and to persevere under the persecution they all faced at that time, does not mean that there was no belief in Christ's return.

and it doesn't mean he considers their daily threat of persecution to be "the great tribulation"
Agreed!

My point is, that in the First to Second Centuries, Disciples of John like Papias and Polycarp never mention a Pre-Tribulation Rapture. They clearly believed in Christ's Return. And if you quickly skim through Polycarp's Letter, it's mostly Scripture from Paul, Peter, John, the other Apostles.

This is around 85 A.D. and look at all of the Scripture he uses [and Noted: someone added the current Book/Chapter/Verse to show which Scripture Polycarp is using]:

Chapter 1. Praise of the Philippians
I have greatly rejoiced with you in our Lord Jesus Christ, because you have followed the example of true love [as displayed by God], and have accompanied, as became you, those who were bound in chains, the fitting ornaments of saints, and which are indeed the diadems of the true elect of God and our Lord; and because the strong root of your faith, spoken of in days Philippians 1:5 long gone by, endures even until now, and brings forth fruit to our Lord Jesus Christ, who for our sins suffered even unto death, [but] whom God raised from the dead, having loosed the bands of the grave. In whom, though now you see Him not, you believe, and believing, rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory; 1 Peter 1:8 into which joy many desire to enter, knowing that by grace you are saved, not of works, Ephesians 2:8-9 but by the will of God through Jesus Christ.

Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtue
Wherefore, girding up your loins, 1 Peter 1:13; Ephesians 6:14 serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, 1 Peter 1:21 and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things 1 Peter 3:22; Philippians 2:10 in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 17:31 His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise us up also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing, 1 Peter 3:9 or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: Judge not, that you be not judged; Matthew 7:1 forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that you may obtain mercy; Luke 6:36 with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you again; Matthew 7:2; Luke 6:38 and once more, Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.

We can Glean off Letters like this!
We can judge the area in time, place, in relationship to history and trouble and see how in that Moment they were still thinking about pressing onward for Christ. I do wonder, maybe, they knew the Second Coming [since he was the Apostle John the Beloved's Disciple] of Christ would happen AFTER their lifetime and why Polycarp does not mention to be keeping an eye out for His Return.
 

AandW

Well-known member
Jun 9, 2021
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#38
Chapter 2. An exhortation to virtue
Wherefore, girding up your loins, 1 Peter 1:13; Ephesians 6:14 serve the Lord in fear and truth, as those who have forsaken the vain, empty talk and error of the multitude, and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, 1 Peter 1:21 and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things 1 Peter 3:22; Philippians 2:10 in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead. Acts 17:31 His blood will God require of those who do not believe in Him. But He who raised Him up from the dead will raise us up also, if we do His will, and walk in His commandments, and love what He loved, keeping ourselves from all unrighteousness, covetousness, love of money, evil speaking, false witness; not rendering evil for evil, or railing for railing, 1 Peter 3:9 or blow for blow, or cursing for cursing, but being mindful of what the Lord said in His teaching: Judge not, that you be not judged; Matthew 7:1 forgive, and it shall be forgiven unto you; be merciful, that you may obtain mercy; Luke 6:36 with what measure you measure, it shall be measured to you again; Matthew 7:2; Luke 6:38 and once more, Blessed are the poor, and those that are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of God.


*******Now, if we only use this Portion*******

and believed in Him who raised up our Lord Jesus Christ from the dead, and gave Him glory, 1 Peter 1:21 and a throne at His right hand. To Him all things 1 Peter 3:22; Philippians 2:10 in heaven and on earth are subject. Him every spirit serves. [[He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead]].
^
He comes as the Judge of the living and the dead.
^
Polycarp mentions His Coming will be as JUDGE.
^
From that much of mention the Coming of Christ, Polycarp claims, "Christ comes back as Judge, not a first pre-trib rapture then as Judge."
 

Jocund

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Jan 14, 2021
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#39
The corruption began around 313 A.D. when the Roman government began to make concessions with the church fathers to fully end the persecution of the saints. In that time they promoted the term "Christians" to replace "believers, saints, and children/sons of God". "Christians" fit neatly into their "master/student" model of philosopher schools and followings.

In 325 the move to make Christianity the state religion of the Roman Empire was codified in the Nicene Creed and fully adopted in February of 380. Shortly thereafter pagan temples were removed or repurposed for church use with statues and figures renamed to fit the Roman church pantheon of God, Jesus, Mary, and the major saints. This was done to make the monotheistic teachings of the scriptures more palatable for the polytheistic Roman citizens. It worked, by the way; the heresies of Rome are still accepted and taught as canon in the Roman church.
"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch" - Acts 11:26 KJV
 

Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#40
"And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch" - Acts 11:26 KJV
Yes, of course. Antioch was located in Syria, part of the Roman Empire.