What do we wrestle with?

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lovespeace123

Guest
#1
KJV - Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NIV - Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

The KJV makes it seems as if we wrestle with rulership. The word 'principalities' is explained at wikipedia. I do not understand 'powers', and rulers of the darkness of this world could be internet highjackers or the marketers who put sex in front of Christians all the time or the corruption/unjust legislation from an judicial office. Spiritual wickedness in high places could be the spiritual dimension of a corrupt politician, or a president that vetoes or creates bills meant to exploit the ignorance of peoples.

The NIV makes it seem more spiritual..rulers, authorities, powres of this dark world, and even mentions the spiritual dynamic (spiritual forces).

Does anyone know Greek and can tell us the spirit and letter of the original Greek? I'm perplexed as to what we wrestle with. The easy answer is spirits, but in the spiritual dimension...are they (most) not subject to Christ. The Bible says demons fear God and shudder.

I have a theory that we wrestle against the Pelosi's, Obama's, Blogajeviches whose ignorance, folly, and sometimes corruption can change the spiritual dynamic of a city. We wrestle against godless men not submitted to the Cross, yet who preach in churches. We wrestle with authorities (Peter said who bare the sword - COPS/Military (I think)) who are corrupt and accept bribes.

Give me input, between the two versions, there has to be a truth about what we war with.

Sam
 
L

lovespeace123

Guest
#2
It could be both...

Sam
 
N

NazariteNation

Guest
#3
Personally, I think it is a combination of the two. Throughout his writings in the New Testament, I believe Paul has made a pretty good argument for both in different parts of scripture. When you think about it, since Satan can penetrate our thoughts in order to tempt us (when we allow him to), it's a pretty safe bet that he is familiar with our physiology and knows how to use it against us.

Being a single 37 year old male who has had intimate relationships in the past before recommitting to Christ, I will admit that there are times when I struggle with loneliness and lust. From personal experience, I have come to the conclusion that what we feed ourselves with does indeed grow. It could be anything from having a negative attitude, to looking at women inappropriately, to gambling,to pushing yourself to extremes to reach an adrenaline high, to actual substances like drugs or alcohol. Anyways, it seems that the more you take in, the more you tend to think about or desire whatever it may be, and in time it will influence your outward behavior in one way or another. A vicious cycle of sorts.

While I have seen cases where people have been delivered from both physical and behavioral addictions never to return to those addictions again, the one constant that I have noticed is that the person has to truly want to rid him or herself of the problem for an instantanious deliverance to fully take root.

As for the rest (most) of us, sometimes that takes time, a lot of self control, and spending a lot of time with the Lord either studying scripture, in prayer, praise & worship, good old fashioned fasting (which I believe requires more than obstaining from just food or the object or behavior that you struggle with), and finally accountability groups where people are aware of your struggles and will check up on your progress from time to time, daily if needed.

For any man reading this that struggles with lust, there are a couple of books that have helped me to come to terms and understand this issue. If anyone is interested in them feel free to message me and I'll post those titles for you.
 
1

1still_waters

Guest
#4
Just to be fair we also wrestle against the corruption of people like Ted Stevens in Alaska. The incompetence of Don Rumsfeld in running wars. The corruption of Bush in his tax policies when he over spends and acts like tax cuts are smart.

Ok I got that fair and balanced rant off my chest. Carry on.
 
L

lovespeace123

Guest
#5
I voted for Bush, though very unpopular both times. Listing Obama and the rest were my attempts to be Fair and Balanced.

:)
 
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NazariteNation

Guest
#6
Just to be fair we also wrestle against the corruption of people like Ted Stevens in Alaska. The incompetence of Don Rumsfeld in running wars. The corruption of Bush in his tax policies when he over spends and acts like tax cuts are smart.

Ok I got that fair and balanced rant off my chest. Carry on.
*lol* I couldn't agree more still...
 
E

eccentricity

Guest
#7
it is and has been for so long.. 3 things... the world, the flesh, and the devil.

PS- the KJV is vastly superior to the NIV, but thats a whole nother subject
 

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O

onwingsaseagles

Guest
#8
KJV - Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NIV - Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

The KJV makes it seems as if we wrestle with rulership. The word 'principalities' is explained at wikipedia. I do not understand 'powers', and rulers of the darkness of this world could be internet highjackers or the marketers who put sex in front of Christians all the time or the corruption/unjust legislation from an judicial office. Spiritual wickedness in high places could be the spiritual dimension of a corrupt politician, or a president that vetoes or creates bills meant to exploit the ignorance of peoples.

The NIV makes it seem more spiritual..rulers, authorities, powres of this dark world, and even mentions the spiritual dynamic (spiritual forces).

Does anyone know Greek and can tell us the spirit and letter of the original Greek? I'm perplexed as to what we wrestle with. The easy answer is spirits, but in the spiritual dimension...are they (most) not subject to Christ. The Bible says demons fear God and shudder.

I have a theory that we wrestle against the Pelosi's, Obama's, Blogajeviches whose ignorance, folly, and sometimes corruption can change the spiritual dynamic of a city. We wrestle against godless men not submitted to the Cross, yet who preach in churches. We wrestle with authorities (Peter said who bare the sword - COPS/Military (I think)) who are corrupt and accept bribes.

Give me input, between the two versions, there has to be a truth about what we war with.

Sam
This verse is saying that we are not in battle against people , but the evil spiritual influences that control most people.
 

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NazariteNation

Guest
#9
This verse is saying that we are not in battle against people , but the evil spiritual influences that control most people.
Given the struggles I mentioned earlier, I feel as though I wrestle with more my own flesh than anything else. After all, Satan does tempt us but we have no one to blame but ourselves for giving in to such temptations.

Galatians 5:24 "And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with it's passions and desires."

I wish it were as easy as it reads...
 

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May 7, 2007
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#10
KJV - Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

NIV - Ephesians 6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this dark world and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.

The KJV makes it seems as if we wrestle with rulership. The word 'principalities' is explained at wikipedia. I do not understand 'powers', and rulers of the darkness of this world could be internet highjackers or the marketers who put sex in front of Christians all the time or the corruption/unjust legislation from an judicial office. Spiritual wickedness in high places could be the spiritual dimension of a corrupt politician, or a president that vetoes or creates bills meant to exploit the ignorance of peoples.

The NIV makes it seem more spiritual..rulers, authorities, powres of this dark world, and even mentions the spiritual dynamic (spiritual forces).

Does anyone know Greek and can tell us the spirit and letter of the original Greek? I'm perplexed as to what we wrestle with. The easy answer is spirits, but in the spiritual dimension...are they (most) not subject to Christ. The Bible says demons fear God and shudder.

I have a theory that we wrestle against the Pelosi's, Obama's, Blogajeviches whose ignorance, folly, and sometimes corruption can change the spiritual dynamic of a city. We wrestle against godless men not submitted to the Cross, yet who preach in churches. We wrestle with authorities (Peter said who bare the sword - COPS/Military (I think)) who are corrupt and accept bribes.

Give me input, between the two versions, there has to be a truth about what we war with.

Sam
This basically repeats itself, "spiritual wickedness in high places", and then "Spiritual forces of evil, in heavenly places" High places is really a general statement in english, but in the context of what Paul is saying "high places" is the same as "heavenly places" I mean it makes sense to me, if you'd like to back that up then you'd need a Greek or hebrew whatever language it's translated from and see what the term High places ment..or you can always look through out the bible and see how the phrase was used in our documents :) Not a answer really..but just giving you food for thought.
 
S

sutra

Guest
#12
In James 1:14-15 it says "But every person is tempted when he is drawn away, enticed, and baited by his own evil desire(lust,passions.) Then the evil desire, when it has conceived, gives birth to sin, and sin, when its fully matured, brings forth death. Nowhere in those verses does it give credit to satan tempting us or penetrating our thoughts. We wrestle with ourselves plain and simple. Romans 8:6-7 "Now the mind of the flesh(which is sense and reason without the Holy Spirit) is death (death that comprises all the miseries arising from sin, both her and herafter). But the mind of the Holy Spirit is life and (soul) peace (both now and forever). (That is) because the mind of the flesh (with its carnal thoughts and purposes) is hostile to God, for it does not subit itself to God's law; indeed it cannot. In Ephesians 4: 22-24 "Strip yourselves of your former nature (put off and discard your old unrenewed self) which characterized your previous manner of life and becomes corrupt through lusts and desires that spring from delusion. And be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind (having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude). And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image. (Godlike) in true righteousness and holiness." It is the high places in our minds that we truly battle, not a "force" outside of us. When we can bring ourselves under control and be renewed in the mind-taking on the mind of Christ, then we are well on our way.



We are only as confined as we allow ourselves to be.
 
J

jeff325

Guest
#13
I think you are missing a main point in that verse, we wrestle NOT against flesh and blood.
 
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