What exactly is "Free Will"

[Chuckyz2]

Not speaking of the choices between apples and oranges or KFC or Jack in the Box
No, the choices that cause sin. The choices between Good and evil. Right and wrong.
How does one go about obtaining free will. What did God do to establish it.
And how, if He is the Maker can He anoint one with a free will and remain
blameless of the choices made to do evil? I have an idea on how
it works. And would like to hear others ideas on how it works.

Here is mine.
In the beginning in the Garden.
God gave only one commandment.
Don't eat or touch the tree in the midst of the garden.
Then He left.
Before they ate there was no sin.
It is recorded as the first sin.
Now the fact that God left is important.
And we know He left because when they
heard Him returning they ran and hid.
So for there to be free will, there has to be
a law established. God commands, "don't touch it!"

Also there has to be a choice. We are talking about
good and evil. So there has to be evil in order to
have the ability to choose, right? Hence the serpent.

God leaves. The serpent enters and deceives the couple.
God returns, they hear Him coming and run and hide.

The tree is obviously evil also. If it was so bad, why
was it in the garden. I mean surely God could have
removed it in a flash with a single word. Begone!

All the other trees are good yet there is this one bad apple.
Only one temptation in the garden. One commandment.
And it was clearly stated by the Father that if they break
the commandment, they would surely die.

Reading this story after many years as a Christian, certain
things about it surfaced that I never before pondered.

Why would a loving God allow this to happen, knowing it
would happen exactly when it happened? Why would He
put the tree there and if He didn't, why would He not just
destroy it instead of making a law to not touch it?

And why would He leave them unattended so the serpent
could have its way with them?

Had He finished His Creation and wanted to see how obedient
His Creation was? No. That can't be it because He already
knew what would happen. He is God. Had he stayed, would He
have allowed it to happen? No. He could not be in the presence
of one deceiving His children and not immediately throw lightning
at it. So... in my mind it was planned and for a reason.
Yet He doesn't give an explanation or a clue to His kids as to what
the purpose of this whole charade is or was about.
He does say, "Now they have become like us, knowing Good and evil."
And that does not mean God ever sinned, only that He knows what
evil is. He created it!

To have free will to do something that is not Gods will...
there has to be something other than Gods will to choose, no?

And as He created it, He promised to remove it on the last day.
And He promised that it would never again return to corrupt.

So in paradise there is not going to be a devil, evil fallen angels
or anything to choose besides Gods will, right? Of course that is
right. It couldn't be paradise with little devils running around,
now could it? And the tree of forbidden fruit wont be there either
and I can only assume there wont be ten commandments written
on stone or placed on our hearts as they were during the Pentecost.

So then one has to ponder, why would God do this if it is not something
we were intended to have to deal with for the long haul. Forever in Paradise.

Was it to sort out the people He made, the good from the bad? Does He make
mistakes? I mean, why would He give one the ability to choose correctly and
and leave another in the dark? That is not something a loving God would do.
It isn't fair. And why would He predestine most of His children to eternal
punishment especially when they are only products of His hands.
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever when you meditate on it.

There has to be something else going on here. And there is.
It is not a test where the good go to Heaven and the Bad get burned.

It is a lesson. One that shows that there can be no free will. There can
be no evil for paradise to be paradise. There cant be choices other than
Gods will because they require evil to be present. Anything other than
Gods will is evil.

The dreaded implications of this, though not really a bad thing, but most
hate the idea, is that we will only do Gods will. That will be a part
of our programming. And He will always be there and never again leave.
So that would make us like robots. Or puppets. But with nothing but
awesome benefits. Having the ability to enjoy all the good gifts, like
tastes, sights, feelings, pleasure, joy, and love to the fullest as God is
fully capable of making all of it perfect.

In my research and studies, and they have been countless, I have concluded
that God loves all His children and the reason for this existence is to drive
hard, the fact that we are not gods. We are made things by Him and He knows
what is best for us as He is perfect and loving and just.

Our Father who is in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come
THY WILL BE DONE.

Its all about excepting Gods will and not our own.
Jesus even said, "I did not come to my will, but the will of the Father who sent me."
" I only do as I learned from the Father." I only say what I hear from the Father".

Its going to be so so cool when it is over and the devil and his angels are cast.
I can't wait. Come Jesus!

 

[Chuckyz2]

Look at these verses from Jesus Himself speaking in John about freewill.

John 4
34 Jesus said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me, and to finish His work."

John 5
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.

30 I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.

31 “If I bear witness of Myself, My witness is not true. 32 There is another who bears witness of Me, and I know that the witness which He witnesses of Me is true.

John 6
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

John 7
16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority. 18 He who speaks from himself seeks his own glory; but He who seeks the glory of the One who sent Him is true, and no unrighteousness is in Him.

John 8
28 Then Jesus said to them, “When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and that I do nothing of Myself; but as My Father taught Me, I speak these things. 29 And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

42 Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me. 43 Why do you not understand My speech?

54 Jesus answered, “If I honor Myself, My honor is nothing. It is My Father who honors Me, of whom you say that He is your God. 55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, ‘I do not know Him,’ I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.

John 12
49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

John 14
10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.

24 He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father’s who sent Me.

31 But that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave Me commandment, so I do. Arise, let us go from here.

John 16 (Even the Spirit only says what he hears from the Father.)
2 “I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. 13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. 14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.

 

[Chuckyz2]

I received no rebottles.
I can only assume that we are in agreement.
lol.
This place reminds me of the old Bible discussion forum.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How does one go about obtaining free will.

It is not a commodity to be picked up at the local supermarket. Every human being has free will. You are free to make whatever choices you make, but there are always consequences.

 

[Chuckyz2]

It is not a commodity to be picked up at the local supermarket. Every human being has free will. You are free to make whatever choices you make, but there are always consequences.

I'm fully aware we all have free will.
I'm sorry but that was not the point. Maybe you should read the post again.
What are the consequences you speak of??
As far as I have been able to tell, assuming you are speaking of the lake of fire, the consequence of sin is death. The Grave. Sheol. Haidies. The word used to define those in the Bible is hell. But it means to die in this life. The lake of fire is the place of eternal torment. This is what most people call hell and in our language that is what it means. But in the Bible the definition is different.

But I will ask again, don't you have to have evil present to have a choice between good and evil?
And since evil will be cast into the lake of fire, why must we learn to defeat it?

 

[trofimus]

I think that free will means that we are not forced/instructed to act or think in a specific way.

It does not mean that we have a 50/50 options. There is always some inclination that leads us to choose this or that way. So we are not forced, but we can be manipulated (in a neutral meaning of the word) very easily.

 

[Nehemiah6]

But I will ask again, don't you have to have evil present to have a choice between good and evil?

The choice was -- and is -- obedience or disobedience to God. Adam was given that choice and disobeyed God.

Today all human beings must either obey of disobey the Gospel, and face the consequences. After they are saved, Christians must either obey or disobey Christ, and face the consequences.

Christians can resist evil, but Christ will destroy evil Himself. He allows sin and evil to exist for a season, but it will all come to an end in the near future. God's ultimate plan is revealed in Scripture -- New Heavens and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[Hungry]

You are trying to conceptualize spiritual teachings by way of carnal thought. We were not given free will. We attained it, and our desire to satisfy our carnal urges over natural law prevents us from hearing God. The fruit of “The tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is...guilt! Knowing right from wrong gives you a conscience. Doing what you know is wrong brings guilt. Guilt separates us from God. That’s how faith in His atonement reunites us with Him. Whether it was sacrificing an animal three thousand years ago or accepting His Son as a once and for all sin offering, believing you are forgiven eliminates guilt. When your conscience is clear, it is easy to hear God and see His design and purpose. Your decision to follow weaves you back into His purpose for you. All things are created for Him, by Him. Rejection of His will and doing your own thing sets you up in opposition. There is no free will, just His will or death.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You are trying to conceptualize spiritual teachings by way of carnal thought. We were not given free will. We attained it, and our desire to satisfy our carnal urges over natural law prevents us from hearing God. The fruit of “The tree of the knowledge of good and evil” is...guilt! Knowing right from wrong gives you a conscience. Doing what you know is wrong brings guilt. Guilt separates us from God. That’s how faith in His atonement reunites us with Him. Whether it was sacrificing an animal three thousand years ago or accepting His Son as a once and for all sin offering, believing you are forgiven eliminates guilt. When your conscience is clear, it is easy to hear God and see His design and purpose. Your decision to follow weaves you back into His purpose for you. All things are created for Him, by Him. Rejection of His will and doing your own thing sets you up in opposition. There is no free will, just His will or death.

We were made in Gods image

Thus we were created with free will. It is in our DNA. In fact, that is what separates mankind from animals. Who act by instinct only, without thought, or freedom.

The thought that we were not "Born" with the freedom to chose is not found in the bible.

 

[glf1]

Hey! Chuckyz2... PTL!
Even in New Jerusalem, there will be a forbidden fruit, so to speak, that as long as we abstain from it, we'll be choosing the Lord!
This is referring to the unforgivable sin that will not forgiven now-a-days, nor in the world to come. Of course; without a carnal nature, nor a tempter, nor a lack of understanding and like Jesus, by having learned obedience from the things that we have suffered: I can't even imagine that one of the resurrected will ever choose to partake of that particular forbidden fruit or act of disobedience.
Maranatha!

 

[so-jesus-e-deus]

Liberty to do what we desire. Unfortunately, there isn't this freedom, inasmuch as we are slaves of the sin:

• "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;" (Rom 3.9).
• "For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise." (Rom 7.15-19).

 

[Bladerunner]

Not speaking of the choices between apples and oranges or KFC or Jack in the Box
No, the choices that cause sin. The choices between Good and evil. Right and wrong.
How does one go about obtaining free will. What did God do to establish it.
And how, if He is the Maker can He anoint one with a free will and remain
blameless of the choices made to do evil? I have an idea on how
it works. And would like to hear others ideas on how it works.

Here is mine.
In the beginning in the Garden.
God gave only one commandment.
Don't eat or touch the tree in the midst of the garden.
Then He left.
Before they ate there was no sin.
It is recorded as the first sin.
Now the fact that God left is important.
And we know He left because when they
heard Him returning they ran and hid.
So for there to be free will, there has to be
a law established. God commands, "don't touch it!"

Also there has to be a choice. We are talking about
good and evil. So there has to be evil in order to
have the ability to choose, right? Hence the serpent.

God leaves. The serpent enters and deceives the couple.
God returns, they hear Him coming and run and hide.

The tree is obviously evil also. If it was so bad, why
was it in the garden. I mean surely God could have
removed it in a flash with a single word. Begone!

All the other trees are good yet there is this one bad apple.
Only one temptation in the garden. One commandment.
And it was clearly stated by the Father that if they break
the commandment, they would surely die.

Reading this story after many years as a Christian, certain
things about it surfaced that I never before pondered.

Why would a loving God allow this to happen, knowing it
would happen exactly when it happened? Why would He
put the tree there and if He didn't, why would He not just
destroy it instead of making a law to not touch it?

And why would He leave them unattended so the serpent
could have its way with them?

Had He finished His Creation and wanted to see how obedient
His Creation was? No. That can't be it because He already
knew what would happen. He is God. Had he stayed, would He
have allowed it to happen? No. He could not be in the presence
of one deceiving His children and not immediately throw lightning
at it. So... in my mind it was planned and for a reason.
Yet He doesn't give an explanation or a clue to His kids as to what
the purpose of this whole charade is or was about.
He does say, "Now they have become like us, knowing Good and evil."
And that does not mean God ever sinned, only that He knows what
evil is. He created it!

To have free will to do something that is not Gods will...
there has to be something other than Gods will to choose, no?

And as He created it, He promised to remove it on the last day.
And He promised that it would never again return to corrupt.

So in paradise there is not going to be a devil, evil fallen angels
or anything to choose besides Gods will, right? Of course that is
right. It couldn't be paradise with little devils running around,
now could it? And the tree of forbidden fruit wont be there either
and I can only assume there wont be ten commandments written
on stone or placed on our hearts as they were during the Pentecost.

So then one has to ponder, why would God do this if it is not something
we were intended to have to deal with for the long haul. Forever in Paradise.

Was it to sort out the people He made, the good from the bad? Does He make
mistakes? I mean, why would He give one the ability to choose correctly and
and leave another in the dark? That is not something a loving God would do.
It isn't fair. And why would He predestine most of His children to eternal
punishment especially when they are only products of His hands.
It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever when you meditate on it.

There has to be something else going on here. And there is.
It is not a test where the good go to Heaven and the Bad get burned.

It is a lesson. One that shows that there can be no free will. There can
be no evil for paradise to be paradise. There cant be choices other than
Gods will because they require evil to be present. Anything other than
Gods will is evil.

The dreaded implications of this, though not really a bad thing, but most
hate the idea, is that we will only do Gods will. That will be a part
of our programming. And He will always be there and never again leave.
So that would make us like robots. Or puppets. But with nothing but
awesome benefits. Having the ability to enjoy all the good gifts, like
tastes, sights, feelings, pleasure, joy, and love to the fullest as God is
fully capable of making all of it perfect.

In my research and studies, and they have been countless, I have concluded
that God loves all His children and the reason for this existence is to drive
hard, the fact that we are not gods. We are made things by Him and He knows
what is best for us as He is perfect and loving and just.

Our Father who is in Heaven
Hallowed be Thy Name.
Thy Kingdom come
THY WILL BE DONE.

Its all about excepting Gods will and not our own.
Jesus even said, "I did not come to my will, but the will of the Father who sent me."
" I only do as I learned from the Father." I only say what I hear from the Father".

Its going to be so so cool when it is over and the devil and his angels are cast.
I can't wait. Come Jesus!

Free-Will is the ability for each person to decide for themselves within their own minds what they want to do on a variety of subjects without outside interference.

Does GOD interfere with your lifestyle or world view...

Blade

 

[glf1]

Liberty to do what we desire. Unfortunately, there isn't this freedom, inasmuch as we are slaves of the sin:

• "What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;" (Rom 3.9).
• "For that which I do I know not: for not what I would, that do I practise; but what I hate, that I do. But if what I would not, that I do, I consent unto the law that it is good. So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise." (Rom 7.15-19).

Hey! so-Jesus-e-deus... PTL!
Perhaps you should have read on a little bit more in that passage of scripture.

Rom 7:24-Rom 8:6: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Maranatha!

 

[Marano]

You're looking at it from a human's perspective, from God's perspective everything God does is to glorify God first and foremost, that includes everything that happens in creation, of course the salvation of His people is included in His glorification, so He provided a way through Jesus Christ, it is all for the glory of God.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Hey! so-Jesus-e-deus... PTL!
Perhaps you should have read on a little bit more in that passage of scripture.

Rom 7:24-Rom 8:6: "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace."
Maranatha!

By Paul's description of himself, he did not continually walk in the Spirit, and if you are insinuating that you never yield yourself to the lust of your fleshly nature that all of us have, even though we are born of the Spirit , then I am not believing you! Only one man could do that, and that is Jesus. 1 John 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. What would be the point in God's chastening us if we sin not? He only chastens those that he loves ( Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.) There are those that he does not chasten, therefore, he does not love them ( Psalms 73:5), They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (divinely punished- Strong's definition) like other men.

 

[LPT]

In my opinion I think the prodigal son story is a fine example of free will, he wanted to have his inheritance to see the world, he freely left on his own to do that.

 

[beta]

In my opinion I think the prodigal son story is a fine example of free will, he wanted to have his inheritance to see the world, he freely left on his own to do that.

Yes, and he also freely RETURNED when he had learnt his lesson !

We do have to make 'choices pertaining to earthly life but when it comes to GOD there is only ONE RIGHT CHOICE to make and that is TO AGREE WITH GOD ! because if we don't we will NOT BE in HIS Kingdom.....Yashua said so Mat 7v21.
There is no such thing as 'deciding and choosing for ourselves HOW we will get eternal life....free will does not stretch that far, only as far as 'choosing GOD'.....from then on our will has to SUBMIT to GOD in every way in order to LEARN obedience. See what it says in Heb 5v8 and 9.To be/become a son/child of God one has to learn obedience.
It always amazes me when people quote Rom 14 to say THEY can choose/esteem THEIR OWN HOLY DAY over and above God - as if GOD's Will does not matter ! Paul never said anything like that ! what impudent misunderstanding they harbour ! And so from this error has grown a religion based on sunday-worship decided by people - NOT GOD ! Reckoning is coming - but there is time to repent !
This is not a threat but a call to reason and TURN to the true Lord !!! Your choice !

 

[LPT]

Yes, and he also freely RETURNED when he had learnt his lesson !

We do have to make 'choices pertaining to earthly life but when it comes to GOD there is only ONE RIGHT CHOICE to make and that is TO AGREE WITH GOD ! because if we don't we will NOT BE in HIS Kingdom.....Yashua said so Mat 7v21.
There is no such thing as 'deciding and choosing for ourselves HOW we will get eternal life....free will does not stretch that far, only as far as 'choosing GOD'.....from then on our will has to SUBMIT to GOD in every way in order to LEARN obedience. See what it says in Heb 5v8 and 9.To be/become a son/child of God one has to learn obedience.
It always amazes me when people quote Rom 14 to say THEY can choose/esteem THEIR OWN HOLY DAY over and above God - as if GOD's Will does not matter ! Paul never said anything like that ! what impudent misunderstanding they harbour ! And so from this error has grown a religion based on sunday-worship decided by people - NOT GOD ! Reckoning is coming - but there is time to repent !
This is not a threat but a call to reason and TURN to the true Lord !!! Your choice !

Thanks for responding and your opinion, and I do agree our will needs to submit to God's will, IMO God won't choose people's will to line up with His will or to do it for them. people have to freely choose to submit that all on their own. As far as the Sunday worship statement you mentioned that is probably best talked about in a thread that is geared around that topic of Sunday or Saturday worshipping.

 

[beta]

Thanks for responding and your opinion, and I do agree our will needs to submit to God's will, IMO God won't choose people's will to line up with His will or to do it for them. people have to freely choose to submit that all on their own. As far as the Sunday worship statement you mentioned that is probably best talked about in a thread that is geared around that topic of Sunday or Saturday worshipping.

Yes thanks for the advice.....sorry I got carried away but I find all scripture 'interacting and difficult to keep in rigid boxes/topics. Perhaps I should have replied to the OP. But as can be seen from many other posts many topics are being discussed yet few concrete answers are ever derived at....the best we can hope for is to 'agree to disagree.'
Mankind has come a long way and mostly 'on their own understanding seeing they are UNwilling to hear God and OBey Him so it may be better and easier to start again from the BEginning IN OUR NEW CREATION WHICH IS WILLING AND ABLE TO ALSO OBEY ! I think this is also the reason why we are admonished to completely 'give up the OLD MAN with it's CORRUPTION....die to selfwill.

 

[glf1]

By Paul's description of himself, he did not continually walk in the Spirit, and if you are insinuating that you never yield yourself to the lust of your fleshly nature that all of us have, even though we are born of the Spirit , then I am not believing you! Only one man could do that, and that is Jesus. 1 John 1:8, If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. What would be the point in God's chastening us if we sin not? He only chastens those that he loves ( Heb 12:6, For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.) There are those that he does not chasten, therefore, he does not love them ( Psalms 73:5), They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they PLAGUED (divinely punished- Strong's definition) like other men.

Hey! Forest.... PTL!
The point in the scripture I posted was in response to: "who shall deliver me from the body of this death?" The answer to that question is seen in the scriptures following that statement. I thank God who has delivered me through Jesus Christ. For if we walk after the Spirit we will deny the lusts of the flesh. The mind set upon the Spirit is life and peace where the mind set upon the flesh is death. Now James tells us, "For we all stumble in many ways..." which refers to apostles as well as to us non-apostle types. For myself, sadly, when I am tired; I am not at my best and have learned over the years that its good for me to keep quiet at those times in order to keep my foot out of my mouth.