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DJT_47

Well-known member
#201
Oct 20, 2022
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#201
Cameron143 said:
If we have a part to do to secure our salvation, how do you believe salvation is of grace? How do you say it is God that gives the increase? What you are claiming is that a person must meet certain requirements in order for God to save them. This is not grace; it is merit.

The only way for these actions on our part to be included in salvation and salvation to remain by grace is that they are the result of salvation, and not its cause.

I would encourage you to read Acts 2:37 and understand how the actions of God in and through an individual led to their responses in Acts 2:38. If you would like some help working through the spiritual transaction in verse 37, let me know.
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As I said, we do our part, then God does his, not before. We're saved by His grace. When? Before we believe? Before we confess and repent? And too
GWH said:
And those same translators say (usually in the footnotes) that MK 16:15-16 is poorly attested,
but even it does not say "he that believeth and is not baptized shall be damned".
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It doesn't have to say that since it makes no sense and would be redundant. It's obvious and logical that if you don't believe you would not do anything whatsoever. Belief, would lead to being obedient. If you don't believe why would you even consider mentioning anything related to obedience which is predicated upon belief. Once again, it makes no sense whatsoever and is a extremely poor argument and excuse to negate the need to be baptized as part of salvation.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#202
Mar 1, 2022
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#202
DJT_47 said:
As I said, we do our part, then God does his, not before. We're saved by His grace. When? Before we believe? Before we confess and repent? And too

It doesn't have to say that since it makes no sense and would be redundant. It's obvious and logical that if you don't believe you would not do anything whatsoever. Belief, would lead to being obedient. If you don't believe why would you even consider mentioning anything related to obedience which is predicated upon belief. Once again, it makes no sense whatsoever and is a extremely poor argument and excuse to negate the need to be baptized as part of salvation.
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That's why I pointed you to Acts 2:37. It comes before Acts 2:38, and not after. So what transpires in verse 37?
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#203
Oct 20, 2022
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#203
Cameron143 said:
That's why I pointed you to Acts 2:37. It comes before Acts 2:38, and not after. So what transpires in verse 37?
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They heard, obviously believed, and asked what should they do after realizing they were responsible for crucifying Christ. They were then told what they needed to do and why in verse 38.

What is your point???


37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#204
Mar 1, 2022
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#204
DJT_47 said:
They heard, obviously believed, and asked what should they do after realizing they were responsible for crucifying Christ. They were then told what they needed to do and why in verse 38.

What is your point???


37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
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Right...they believed. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So God is already at work. Who pricked their hearts?
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#205
Oct 20, 2022
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#205
Cameron143 said:
Right...they believed. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So God is already at work. Who pricked their hearts?
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Not following your logic as relates to the earlier issue/question/discussion, that of baptism and the "type"; i said there was one baptism and that was by immersion and that it was a baptism into Christ, in spirit, not by spirit as erroneously translated by the kjv and others.
 
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GWH

Groovy
#206
Oct 19, 2024
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#206
DJT_47 said:
As I said, we do our part, then God does his, not before. We're saved by His grace. When? Before we believe? Before we confess and repent? And too

It doesn't have to say that since it makes no sense and would be redundant. It's obvious and logical that if you don't believe you would not do anything whatsoever. Belief, would lead to being obedient. If you don't believe why would you even consider mentioning anything related to obedience which is predicated upon belief. Once again, it makes no sense whatsoever and is a extremely poor argument and excuse to negate the need to be baptized as part of salvation.
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It has to say that if it has to mean what you say it means, but as it is, it obviously contradicts the teaching of Paul that souls
are saved by grace through faith, not of works (including water baptism), although genuine faith produces loving fruit.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#207
Mar 1, 2022
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#207
DJT_47 said:
Not following your logic as relates to the earlier issue/question/discussion, that of baptism and the "type"; i said there was one baptism and that was by immersion and that it was a baptism into Christ, in spirit, not by spirit as erroneously translated by the kjv and others.
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You postulated that the baptism was water baptism. I postulated that it was spiritual baptism. You went on to say that there were a number of things that an individual must do in order for God to save them. I disagreed with this saying that if this is so, salvation is based on merit and not grace. Then I told you there was a way to understand scripture that allowed all that you claimed accompanies salvation, while still preserving salvation by grace.
The way this can be so is that all the things you claim to be necessary to be done to be saved actually are the result of salvation. To do this I began with a consideration of Acts 2:37. Here we find God acting in salvation on behalf of the individual. God has commissioned a preacher to forth tell the word of God which produced hearing in some, and consequently, belief. Further, the hearts of these individuals were pricked. All of this to say that God was already at work in those individuals, rather than waiting on these individuals to do their part in order to be saved.
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#209
Oct 20, 2022
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#209
Cameron143 said:
Right...they believed. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So God is already at work. Who pricked their hearts?
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Not following your logic as relates to the earlier issue/question, that of baptism and the "type"; i said there was one baptism and that was by immersion.
GWH said:
It has to say that if it has to mean what you say it means, but as it is, it obviously contradicts the teaching of Paul that souls
are saved by grace through faith, not of works (including water baptism), although genuine faith produces loving fruit.
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Everything we do here on earth in the physical body is a work. Baptism is a commandment, that is if you believe, andbthen it's obedience, no different than Abraham's obedience, no different than Naaman's obedience when told to dip 7 times in the Jordan to cure his lepracy. He wasn't cured until he did. A work, or obedience? Wake up!
 
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GWH

Groovy
#210
Oct 19, 2024
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#210
DJT_47 said:
Not following your logic as relates to the earlier issue/question, that of baptism and the "type"; i said there was one baptism and that was by immersion.

Everything we do here on earth in the physical body is a work. Baptism is a commandment, that is if you believe, andbthen it's obedience, no different than Abraham's obedience, no different than Naaman's obedience when told to dip 7 times in the Jordan to cure his lepracy. He wasn't cured until he did. A work, or obedience? Wake up!
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Jesus commanded water baptism as a work symbolizing HIS work, NOT as a sacrament that negates the work of the Holy Spirit, which IS salvific per RM 8:9-16.
Again, Jesus taught (in JN 13:35) that his disciples would be known by the fruit of the HS/love (GL 5:22),
NOT because they were washed or dunked or sprinkled in water (the latter mode is also useful for waking people up btw :^),
which you imply must be done seven times. If Naaman died on the way to the Jordan he would not have been cured?
Why NOT?!
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#211
Mar 1, 2022
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#211
DJT_47 said:
Not following your logic as relates to the earlier issue/question, that of baptism and the "type"; i said there was one baptism and that was by immersion.

Everything we do here on earth in the physical body is a work. Baptism is a commandment, that is if you believe, andbthen it's obedience, no different than Abraham's obedience, no different than Naaman's obedience when told to dip 7 times in the Jordan to cure his lepracy. He wasn't cured until he did. A work, or obedience? Wake up!
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In water baptism, you are immersed into water. In Spirit baptism, you are immersed into Christ. This is what is taking place in Acts 2:37.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#212
Jul 3, 2015
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#212
m now on we regard no one according to the flesh. Although we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.
Cameron143 said:
In water baptism, you are immersed into water. In Spirit baptism, you are immersed into Christ. This is what is taking place in Acts 2:37.
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Ephesians 4 verses 5-6 ~ There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
:)
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#213
Oct 20, 2022
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#213
GWH said:
Jesus commanded water baptism as a work symbolizing HIS work, NOT as a sacrament that negates the work of the Holy Spirit, which IS salvific per RM 8:9-16.
Again, Jesus taught (in JN 13:35) that his disciples would be known by the fruit of the HS/love (GL 5:22),
NOT because they were washed or dunked or sprinkled in water (the latter mode is also useful for waking people up btw :^),
which you imply must be done seven times. If Naaman died on the way to the Jordan he would not have been cured?
Why NOT?!
Click to expand...
Baptism is not a work of the flesh if that's what you're implying. As i said, because we are physical beings, everything we do is some kind of a "work"; only stands to reason. Even if you think with you'd brain, it's a physical "work". And you don't get the Spirit prior to becoming a child of God, a Christian, as you're baptized in the spirit, so it's through baptism that we contact and receive the spirit (Acts 2:38).

And had Naaman died prior to fulfilling his obedience, he wouldn't have been cured. Good intentions don't equate to doing the deed.
Cameron143 said:
In water baptism, you are immersed into water. In Spirit baptism, you are immersed into Christ. This is what is taking place in Acts 2:37.
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It happens simultaneously. Acts2:38 tells you that. Acts2:47 says the Lord adds you to the body which is in Christ.
 
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GWH

Groovy
#214
Oct 19, 2024
4,197
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#214
DJT_47 said:
Baptism is not a work of the flesh if that's what you're implying. As i said, because we are physical beings, everything we do is some kind of a "work"; only stands to reason. Even if you think with you'd brain, it's a physical "work". And you don't get the Spirit prior to becoming a child of God, a Christian, as you're baptized in the spirit, so it's through baptism that we contact and receive the spirit (Acts 2:38).

And had Naaman died prior to fulfilling his obedience, he wouldn't have been cured. Good intentions don't equate to doing the deed.

It happens simultaneously. Acts2:38 tells you that. Acts2:47 says the Lord adds you to the body which is in Christ.
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All works deemed to be salvific are of the flesh, but if viewed as fruit of the Spirit then they are in the cart that follows faith (EPH 2:10).

Poor Naaman! I like your mention of him though, because I view his story as illustrating willingness or openness to truth, even if one cannot understand it and may even find some of it silly. Bathing in the dirty Jordan River to cure his leprosy (2KG 5:10-14) teaches us not to let sinful pride prevent us from being cured of spiritual sickness by methods we think are silly or do not understand.

Some atheists might not understand why God ordained Messiah to atone for humanity’s sins, so they think the Gospel seems foolish or silly (cf. 1CR 1:18-25). However, they accept physical reality without necessarily understanding very well how it works (cf. JN 3:8). So, I encourage them to follow Naaman's example. (Not MY way, but God’s WAY: humility = teachability.)
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#215
Mar 1, 2022
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#215
DJT_47 said:
Baptism is not a work of the flesh if that's what you're implying. As i said, because we are physical beings, everything we do is some kind of a "work"; only stands to reason. Even if you think with you'd brain, it's a physical "work". And you don't get the Spirit prior to becoming a child of God, a Christian, as you're baptized in the spirit, so it's through baptism that we contact and receive the spirit (Acts 2:38).

And had Naaman died prior to fulfilling his obedience, he wouldn't have been cured. Good intentions don't equate to doing the deed.

It happens simultaneously. Acts2:38 tells you that. Acts2:47 says the Lord adds you to the body which is in Christ.
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The Lord adds in Acts 2:37. You respond to what He has done in Acts 2:38.
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#216
Oct 20, 2022
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#216
Cameron143 said:
The Lord adds in Acts 2:37. You respond to what He has done in Acts 2:38.
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It's absolutely impossible to be saved prior to baptism (water immersion); stating so is contrary to the totality of scripture on the subject of salvation.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#217
Mar 1, 2022
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#217
DJT_47 said:
It's absolutely impossible to be saved prior to baptism (water immersion); stating so is contrary to the totality of scripture on the subject of salvation.
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What is happening in Acts 2:37? And who is doing it?

In Romans 3 it says none seek after God or understand. What occurs that men do understand and seek after God?
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#218
Oct 20, 2022
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#218
Cameron143 said:
What is happening in Acts 2:37? And who is doing it?

In Romans 3 it says none seek after God or understand. What occurs that men do understand and seek after God?
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I have no idea what you're implying. Once again, below is 2:37. The Jews are "they" and "we".


37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#219
Mar 1, 2022
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#219
DJT_47 said:
I have no idea what you're implying. Once again, below is 2:37. The Jews are "they" and "we".


37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we
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Where does hearing come from and what does it produce?
What does it mean to have one's heart pricked?
Who pricks the hearts of men? How?
Why were only 3,000 people affected and asked what to do while so many others went away unchanged?
Why did these people attend to the things of God when the inclination of the natural man is not to seek after Him?
How can people with no understanding of God suddenly be filled with understanding?

I'm asking you what transpires in verse 37 of Acts 2 that leads to their inquiry in verse 38?
 
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DJT_47

Well-known member
#220
Oct 20, 2022
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#220
Cameron143 said:
Where does hearing come from and what does it produce?
What does it mean to have one's heart pricked?
Who pricks the hearts of men? How?
Why were only 3,000 people affected and asked what to do while so many others went away unchanged?
Why did these people attend to the things of God when the inclination of the natural man is not to seek after Him?
How can people with no understanding of God suddenly be filled with understanding?

I'm asking you what transpires in verse 37 of Acts 2 that leads to their inquiry in verse 38?
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What is your bottom line point in saying this? What you're describing is the process of how, when,why someone begins to believe, which is one that can't be explained, nor why some do and some don't which is also inexplicable, but, what is your point? Belief is good, but not the end all. Belief is the 1st step in the process of salvation. James said in James 2:19 below, so, what is your point? Salvation doesn't occur upon belief, that's why other things are described that are also necessary, i.e.; confession of belief (Romans 10:8-10), repentance (Acts2:38), and baptism also Acts2 2:38 and elsewhere.
KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
 
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