What is a true church?

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Heremon

Guest
#1
It is evident from the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Rev.2:1-3:11), that not every group of people that call themselves a church are indeed a church. Jesus told the church of Sardis that, even though they had a name for being alive, they were dead. Laodicea made Our Lord want to puke, and the most doctrinally orthodox church, Ephesus, was about to lose its status as a church, and later did when God removed their lampstand. I was curious as to what criteria the members of this forum would use to define a true church?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#2
It is evident from the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Rev.2:1-3:11), that not every group of people that call themselves a church are indeed a church. Jesus told the church of Sardis that, even though they had a name for being alive, they were dead. Laodicea made Our Lord want to puke, and the most doctrinally orthodox church, Ephesus, was about to lose its status as a church, and later did when God removed their lampstand. I was curious as to what criteria the members of this forum would use to define a true church?
I would say a true church is one that preaches the full Gospel as written in the NT.

And a true church would be known by its love. A person s background/class would mean nothing in a true church. The beggar and the executive, could sit side by side as brothers in Christ without any discomfort at all on either side. And the executive would invite the beggar into his home for a meal and give him a new set of clothes.

All would be treated equally the same in a true church, and no-one would be loooked down on for a poorer education, or a lower social standing than someone else

And unless a church was in a considerably rich area if it was mainly filled with the better off and thosae mlore intellecvtiually gifted, I would say something was wrong with that church, God is not a God of class
 
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cows_chewing_grass

Guest
#3
ehh, I usually feel a bit nervous when people put the words "true" and "church" next to each other. It seems like people invariably start focusing on the group's rightness to the exclusion of what it is that God may want them to do.

However, it's great that you put "a" in there. I think a true church would be one that is attempting to practice the same disciplines that Jesus and his disciples practiced.

They lived together 24/7 travelling from town to town preaching the values of kingdom of Heaven. They forsook all they had and shared all things in common. They were not afraid to sleep out under the stars in the course of their travels, and trusted God for all the things they needed.

What a wonderful picture of a church totally committed to promoting faith in God. (btw, I know some people who do that kind of thing, if anyone is interested ;) )
 

Adrianv125

Senior Member
Jan 17, 2011
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#4
I'll tell you exactly WHO the true Church is. The true Church isn't found in a building or in a denomination. The true Church of Christ are those who believe Jesus is the son of God, whose father is Our Creator, and whose Holy Spirit is the one who inspired the Word of God and is the one who lives in us once we give our lives over to Him accepting we are sinners and are saved only by the Grace of God Through Jesus's Sacrifice. The true Church submits it's will and gives it over to the will of God that is found in His Word which is taught to us ONLY by the Holy Spirit. Those who TRULY Love God Keep his commands. AND that is the true Church of Christ. :)
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#5
I'll tell you exactly WHO the true Church is. The true Church isn't found in a building or in a denomination. The true Church of Christ are those who believe Jesus is the son of God, whose father is Our Creator, and whose Holy Spirit is the one who inspired the Word of God and is the one who lives in us once we give our lives over to Him accepting we are sinners and are saved only by the Grace of God Through Jesus's Sacrifice. The true Church submits it's will and gives it over to the will of God that is found in His Word which is taught to us ONLY by the Holy Spirit. Those who TRULY Love God Keep his commands. AND that is the true Church of Christ. :)
Wonderfully put
 
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cows_chewing_grass

Guest
#6
looks like we are posting at the same time, lbg.

The beggar and the executive, could sit side by side as brothers in Christ without any discomfort at all on either side.
I'd like to disagree with you on this one. I don't think they could sit side by side when one has so much while the other has so little and I don't think that is how it works in the kingdom of heaven.

Actually I don't think there will be room in the Kingdom of heaven for executives (well maybe but you know what Jesus said about the rich and the eye of a needle!).

Jesus and his entire posse were beggars. At one point Jesus even told some would-be followers that he had no place to sleep (while foxes and birds at least had holes and nests). He taught the multitudes that "whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all he has, cannot be my disciple" and they shared all things in common.

When Jesus called Matthew, he said "follow me" and the record shows that matthew left his office Job and followed Jesus. When he called James and John he said "follow me" and the record shows they left their fishing jobs to follow Jesus. A bunch of jobless fishermen, tax collectors and a carpenter all wandering around the country teaching about an invisible kingdom knows as the Kingdom of heaven and telling other people to join the fun!

Now there is a true church. Anyone wanna give it a try? I'm game...
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#7
looks like we are posting at the same time, lbg.



I'd like to disagree with you on this one. I don't think they could sit side by side when one has so much while the other has so little and I don't think that is how it works in the kingdom of heaven.

Actually I don't think there will be room in the Kingdom of heaven for executives (well maybe but you know what Jesus said about the rich and the eye of a needle!).

Jesus and his entire posse were beggars. At one point Jesus even told some would-be followers that he had no place to sleep (while foxes and birds at least had holes and nests). He taught the multitudes that "whosoever he be of you that forsakes not all he has, cannot be my disciple" and they shared all things in common.

When Jesus called Matthew, he said "follow me" and the record shows that matthew left his office Job and followed Jesus. When he called James and John he said "follow me" and the record shows they left their fishing jobs to follow Jesus. A bunch of jobless fishermen, tax collectors and a carpenter all wandering around the country teaching about an invisible kingdom knows as the Kingdom of heaven and telling other people to join the fun!
ccg

Though I accept that in a true church a beggar would not for long exist as the church would care for his needs and fiind him a home among the congrtegation, the poiont I was making (rather extremely) was that class/background would be irrelevant in a true church.
But for the first time we do see things sdlightly differently. Although I fully accept what the disciples were called for and we should all take up our cross and follow Christ, I do not believe all are called to be Apostles in the sense they give up family and homes and have no place tro rest there head. Many are, and many do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirits convictipon in this.
But I do believe that others are simply called to have a family, witness to those at work and , help in a church and with the money God has helped them earn to support their fellow believers.


Not all are called to be Apostles, preachers, teachers. etc
 
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cows_chewing_grass

Guest
#8
Though I accept that in a true church a beggar would not for long exist as the church would care for his needs and fiind him a home among the congrtegation,
Actually, I would tend to see it the other way around. The rich man would not be rich for long because he would respond to Jesus' teachings about "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" and "sell what you have give it to the poor, and then you will have treasure in heaven".

Why would anyone want to continue being rich after reading something like that?

I do not believe all are called to be Apostles in the sense they give up family and homes and have no place tro rest there head. Many are, and many do not follow the leading of the Holy Spirits convictipon in this.
But I do believe that others are simply called to have a family, witness to those at work and , help in a church and with the money God has helped them earn to support their fellow believers.
So now we get to the real nitty gritty eh? :)

have a look at this;

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I believe this teaching is appropriately applied to your comment about witnessing at work. It is from the sermon on the mount and addressed to the followers of Jesus in general. You see, witnessing IS our work! Any time we spend working to get more money is time we spend showing our contempt for what God wants us to do, and any time we spend working for God is time we spend showing contempt for the values of this system.

This isn't a teaching for some people. It's a direct challenge to the love of money right at it's core.

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

This teaching is also addressed to the followers of Jesus in general. See where he says "whosoever"? That's fairly inclusive, I think.

How about this one!

Luk 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
This is Peter, declaring that they have forsaken all to follow Jesus. The reason he is saying it is because Jesus just told a rich man to forsake all, and the rich man didn't want to. And THAT was in answer to what the rich man must do to have eternal life. Think about it. God is no fool. He is not going to fulfill a promise of the magnitude that eternal life represents if we are cheating on the rules.

The reward is eternal life. The price is everything you cling to. What's it gonna be? It's almost like Peter was kind of breathing a sigh of relief when he made the comment above. How hard it is for the rich to get into heaven. They just won't let go of what they cling to!
 
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#9
Actually, I would tend to see it the other way around. The rich man would not be rich for long because he would respond to Jesus' teachings about "where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" and "sell what you have give it to the poor, and then you will have treasure in heaven".

Why would anyone want to continue being rich after reading something like that?

They may continue to work in a high paid job so they can give more aid to their church or those in missionary work



So now we get to the real nitty gritty eh? :)

have a look at this;

Mat 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I believe this teaching is appropriately applied to your comment about witnessing at work. It is from the sermon on the mount and addressed to the followers of Jesus in general. You see, witnessing IS our work! Any time we spend working to get more money is time we spend showing our contempt for what God wants us to do, and any time we spend working for God is time we spend showing contempt for the values of this system.

This isn't a teaching for some people. It's a direct challenge to the love of money right at it's core.

I have addressed thios above. If a person works and earns good money and uses the surplus to their needs for God's work, is this wrong?

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

This teaching is also addressed to the followers of Jesus in general. See where he says "whosoever"? That's fairly inclusive, I think.

But what is the work God would have an individual do? It is different for all. Did Paul peter, James and John tell all the people in the churches they wrote to to abandon their jobs? No. Paul admonished many to get working and earn their living
How about this one!



This is Peter, declaring that they have forsaken all to follow Jesus. The reason he is saying it is because Jesus just told a rich man to forsake all, and the rich man didn't want to. And THAT was in answer to what the rich man must do to have eternal life. Think about it. God is no fool. He is not going to fulfill a promise of the magnitude that eternal life represents if we are cheating on the rules.

The reward is eternal life. The price is everything you cling to. What's it gonna be? It's almost like Peter was kind of breathing a sigh of relief when he made the comment above. How hard it is for the rich to get into heaven. They just won't let go of what they cling to!
But not all are called to leave their jobs, home and family and work full time for God. Are all Apostles? Are all teachers? Are all prophets?
Did Christ tell Zaccheaus to leave his family and follow him?

Taking up the cross is different for every individual. Many run into trouble because they THINK God has called them to a certain work when he hasn't
. Only those called and commissioned can give up everything. Some are called not to marry and have a family, others are not called to this. The individual must be sure of the calling they have received.

Desire to do a certain work is not enough if God has not caslled a person to that work.
 
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Scotth1960

Guest
#10
It is evident from the letters to the seven churches in Asia (Rev.2:1-3:11), that not every group of people that call themselves a church are indeed a church. Jesus told the church of Sardis that, even though they had a name for being alive, they were dead. Laodicea made Our Lord want to puke, and the most doctrinally orthodox church, Ephesus, was about to lose its status as a church, and later did when God removed their lampstand. I was curious as to what criteria the members of this forum would use to define a true church?
The true church, Heremon, is one holy catholic and apostolic. Which church today fulfills the criterion of the Creed of 381 AD? Is it papal Rome? No. Is it the Church of the NT? Yes. Is the Orthodox Church the Church of the NT? Yes. The same, one Church. The same Church as the Church of the Apostles of Christ, 12 of them, plus St. Paul, St. Barnabas, St. Timothy, St. Titus, etc. This is not a prideful boast, but a humble burden of the Church called Orthodox because She is "the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (1 Tim. 3:15). She is unique in preaching the truth from the Gospel, that the Holy Spirit "proceedeth from the Father" (JOHN 15:26), and testifying faithfully to our LORD Jesus Christ (JOHN 15:27). Jesus is the way back to the Father, the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ which points the way back to Jesus, and this happens because the Comforter (John 15:26) lives in the Orthodox Church. His purpose is to bring all separated Christians back into the One Flock of Orthodoxy. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 
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cows_chewing_grass

Guest
#11
They may continue to work in a high paid job so they can give more aid to their church or those in missionary work
Sure that sounds like a fine rationale but it's not what Jesus said to do. He didn't say that some people should work for money to support others. He said, to his followers, that they should seek first the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven isn't about working for money. Seek first the kingdom of heaven and god will take care of the things we need. You see, we don't need "kings" working in system jobs to support the poor old missionaries.

God is able to do that. What we need are labourers but unfortunately there are far too many people who would rather pay others to do the job for them.

But what is the work God would have an individual do? It is different for all. Did Paul peter, James and John tell all the people in the churches they wrote to to abandon their jobs? No. Paul admonished many to get working and earn their living
And who was Paul writing to? Communities of believers living and working together. The issue has never been about working verses not working. The issue is about who we are working for. Go ahead and give any quote from Paul you like about working. I guarantee you won't find anything in there about working for money (although you can assume that is what he was talking about).

At one point he said "those who do not work, should not eat". Fair enough, but this still says nothing about working for money. It's a teaching about not being lazy.

Did Paul peter, James and John tell all the people in the churches they wrote to to abandon their jobs?
Are you aware that James and John and Paul all left their jobs to follow Jesus full time? Why would the standard for others be different? All three of those guys admonished their followers to do as they did.

See the point isn't about everyone all doing the same task. The point is about getting the foundation properly laid. You can't serve two masters. Jesus said one master is God and the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy).

Why did Jesus tell his followers to consider the birds of the air and the flowers of the field? Because they don't work for money and yet God cares for them. He said that we should not let worry about monetary issues stop us from stepping out in faith.

At one point he even told the people (not just some special select group of apostles) to not even work for food! Yes he really did! (john 7)

Jesus is trying to get us to see the kingdom of Heaven as something more than just what this world has to offer, but like Nicodemus, we'll never be able to even see it until we become born again, like little children trusting daddy to put food on the table.

So, who's your daddy? The systems of man offering you little bits of paper and metal if you serve it's interests? or God who offers you eternal life if you will only give your time (yes, even the 40 hours a week chasing the dollar) to him and his kingdom?

I know who I'm choosing!
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#12
Sure that sounds like a fine rationale but it's not what Jesus said to do. He didn't say that some people should work for money to support others. He said, to his followers, that they should seek first the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven isn't about working for money. Seek first the kingdom of heaven and god will take care of the things we need. You see, we don't need "kings" working in system jobs to support the poor old missionaries.

God is able to do that. What we need are labourers but unfortunately there are far too many people who would rather pay others to do the job for them.



And who was Paul writing to? Communities of believers living and working together. The issue has never been about working verses not working. The issue is about who we are working for. Go ahead and give any quote from Paul you like about working. I guarantee you won't find anything in there about working for money (although you can assume that is what he was talking about).

At one point he said "those who do not work, should not eat". Fair enough, but this still says nothing about working for money. It's a teaching about not being lazy.



Are you aware that James and John and Paul all left their jobs to follow Jesus full time? Why would the standard for others be different? All three of those guys admonished their followers to do as they did.

See the point isn't about everyone all doing the same task. The point is about getting the foundation properly laid. You can't serve two masters. Jesus said one master is God and the other master is mammon (money and the things money can buy).

Why did Jesus tell his followers to consider the birds of the air and the flowers of the field? Because they don't work for money and yet God cares for them. He said that we should not let worry about monetary issues stop us from stepping out in faith.

At one point he even told the people (not just some special select group of apostles) to not even work for food! Yes he really did! (john 7)

Jesus is trying to get us to see the kingdom of Heaven as something more than just what this world has to offer, but like Nicodemus, we'll never be able to even see it until we become born again, like little children trusting daddy to put food on the table.

So, who's your daddy? The systems of man offering you little bits of paper and metal if you serve it's interests? or God who offers you eternal life if you will only give your time (yes, even the 40 hours a week chasing the dollar) to him and his kingdom?

I know who I'm choosing!
Did Paul cease to be a tent maker as soon as he was called?

Did people not support Christ and his disciples from the money they earned?

Are you saying that every Christian should leave their paid job and work full time Evangelising?
 
Dec 19, 2009
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#13
Did Paul cease to be a tent maker as soon as he was called?

Did people not support Christ and his disciples from the money they earned?

Are you saying that every Christian should leave their paid job and work full time Evangelising?
This is my defence to those who sit in judgement on me. Don't we have the rightr to food and drink? Don't we have the right to takle a believing wife along with us as do the other Apostles and the Lord's brothers and Cephas

Or is it only I and Barnabas who must work for a living.

1 Cor 9:3-6

That's pretty clear to me, Paul still at times worked to earn a living.

I twice lived in a Christian Community. The leaders there believed not all were called to such a life, and many returned with their blessing to paid employment

But in saying all of this I do recognise that most Christians(especially in the west, myself included) often fail to live up to what God really wants from us. But I don't believe every Christian is called to pack up work, or abandon a family while they preach the word
 
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cows_chewing_grass

Guest
#14
Did people not support Christ and his disciples from the money they earned?
Maybe they did, but that didn't stop him from telling them that they should forsake all and follow him. You see, if what you really want is money, then you don't tell the people who are giving you donations to stop working for money, do you? Obviously, Jesus was talking about something much better than working in system jobs so that they could give a bit of their profits to please

Are you saying that every Christian should leave their paid job and work full time Evangelising?
No, I think I've been fairly clear in every post that it's not my teaching. It comes from Jesus. It's his idea. It's his teaching. See if, it comes from me then I could understand you feeling wary of it. But if it comes from Jesus, then what?

In response to your comments about Paul making tents, let me post a short article for you dealing with that issue. It's all the same stuff I would type out anyway, but saves me a bit of time to post the article.

The Tentmaking Myth

Catholics, Evangelicals, Pentecostals, High and Low Church Anglicans, Jehovah's Witnesses, the Children of God, Mormons - in fact, every denomination and sect we know of - has one belief in common: they all support the tentmaking myth.

The tentmaking myth says God's plan is for everyone to work for money, because that's what St. Paul did during his entire life. And it is taught more universally than any other so-called Christian doctrine.

The world would have never known Paul made tents were it not for one verse in the Book of Acts. Though the Bible says Peter, Andrew, James, and John all forsook their fishing businesses when they followed Jesus (Matthew 4:18-22 ), and Matthew stopped collecting taxes (Luke 5:28 ), the tent-making myth says Paul never stopped making tents, and it would have been wrong if he had.

Ministers who live off the donations of their flock invoke the tentmaking argument against anyone else in their church who shows signs of trusting God to supply their needs as they attempt to preach the gospel. The professional ministers argue that they never did anything so reckless as to trust God for their support. They attended the denomination's Bible school or seminary, then thrashed out legal terms of employment which guaranteed that they would never go without. True, they don't make tents; but they leave no doubt in the minds of their congregation that they are working for the wage and not for love... which is what the tentmaking cornerstone is really about anyway.

If Paul had spent his whole life making tents (and one wonders how he managed all his missionary journeys if he was busy running a tent company), would it really prove the other disciples were wrong? And would it make Christ's teachings about taking no thought for food or clothing (Matthew 6:19-34 ), going into all the world preaching the gospel (Mark 16:15 ), forsaking all (Luke 14:33 ), and not working for food (John 6:27 ) heretical? If so, then we must assume Paul alone has the words of eternal life, and Jesus is a fraud. And that is exactly what the tentmaking myth tries to say.

In fact, it goes further than that. It even says that if Paul contradicts it, he is a fraud. See, Paul says (1 Corinthians 7:21-23 ) that any slave who has the opportunity to be free should use it. "Don't let God's free people become anyone's slave," he says. Referring to God's responsibility to provide for the needs of his servants, Paul says, "No one who joins an army pays his own wage." (1 Corinthians 9:7 ) He says it is only fair that those who feed the world spiritually be fed in return. (1 Corinthians 9:9-14 )

So where did the tentmaking myth come from? It came from a short time in Paul's life when he backslid. "Backslid?!" gasp worshippers of Paul in horror. Yes, great as he was, Paul was fallible. He made mistakes like the rest of us mortals. And he never wanted us to follow him in areas where he strayed from the gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:8 )

'Backsliding' doesn't always mean a turn-around from loving Christ to hating him. It can be a momentary lapse of concentration, during which we substitute our human reasoning for the clear directions that God has given us. That is what happened to Paul.

Here is the true story of what happened: Paul arrived in Corinth on his own. (Acts 18:1 ) He usually travelled with at least one other Christian (as Jesus commanded--Luke 10:1 ), but this time he was on his own. He met some prospective converts (Acts 18:2 ) who offered him a job in their tent company, and he accepted. (v. 3) He still preached on weekends (v. 4), but the rest of the time he apparently witnessed 'on the job' to Aquila and Priscilla. When Silas and Timothy arrived some time later, Paul was "pricked in his conscience" and "gave his whole time to preaching the message" (TEV, v. 5) Paul later writes to the church at Corinth (with whom he had more problems than any other church he started) and says, "The only way I treated you differently from any other church was that I didn't rely on you to support me. Forgive me this wrong." (2 Corinthians 12:13 )

This is the whole story of Paul's tent-making. But the myth (like all myths) adapts other facts to suit itself. So every time Paul mentions 'work', the myth inserts "for money" or "making tents" into the passage. In 1 Thessalonians 2:9 Paul says that he worked night and day preaching so that no one could charge him with failing to do his job. The tentmakers rephrase it thus: "I worked making tents during the day so I wouldn't need to charge admission to my meetings at night." Then, when Paul writes to them again (2 Thessalonians 3:7-12 ) saying not to let lazy people who refuse to work for God live and eat in their communes, the tentmakers change it to say, "Don't let anyone attend your meetings who isn't spending the rest of their time working for money from the system."

Note: You may need to check older translations of these passages to get one that hasn't been altered to support the tentmaking bias. This is because churches today no longer live and eat together. They cannot imagine a situation where everyone in a community is working for love, and God is feeding them; so their cultural bias has reflected itself in the rendering of these passages.

On a few other occasions Paul talks about working with your hands doing good, and these passages too have been re-written in modern translations to include phrases like "work for a living," thus bringing money into the picture and effectively pushing God, love, and faith out. But every single check of the earliest manuscripts shows that no hint of money ever appeared in any of them.

Show this article to any expert who supports the tentmaking myth and they will immediately hush up. In fact, the most incredible thing about the whole myth is that it is never publicly taught as a Christian doctrine (because it can be so easily shot to bits) and yet it is the most widely known and supported teaching in so-called Christianity. It is always taught surreptitiously and in bits and pieces, so that the teachers can feign innocence when confronted with the facts.

This flimsiest of all false cornerstones persists in every denomination and cult. The simple truths stated in this article will not make one bit of difference to the millions who preach and practice the tentmaking myth. It never grew out of a desire to know the truth in the first place, and until their greed is replaced by faith in God's provision, they'll cling to it until their death.

If you are making the same mistake of hiding behind the tentmakers, we must solemnly warn you that you'll never sneak it by God Almighty. Jesus says, "Follow me and I will make you living tents of the Holy Spirit!"
 
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ONE_LORD

Guest
#15
You only have to look in the book of Acts and see what doctrine was taught believed and obeyed. Any other way is a false doctrine of satan!
They preached repentance, baptism in JESUS name (not titles: Father, Son, Holy Spirit), And Receiving the Holy Ghost (with the evidence of speaking in tongues) I know many doctrines of the devil teach otherwise and on judgement day God will judge according to His standards not the standards of men or satan!!!!!
 
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DanuckInUSA

Guest
#16
A body of people with changed hearts the are reaching out to make disciples of the nations with the Gospel through their deeds.
 
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#17
The church is the ekklesia, those who have been called out by God. It is not through our actions or any doctrinal purity that we achieve this status. It is through his grace.

There is no need to subject every deviation to the "true" vs. "false" dichotomy. We have a larger vocabulary and should use it. A true can be a bad church, a lukewarm church, a doctrinally questionable church, a lazy church, or a church that will be punished.

None of these, fortunately, invalidate the church's core identity.
 
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DanuckInUSA

Guest
#18
James and Paul both ascribe to the fact that the grace which has been shaved should have altered your heart in such a way that your actions can't help but illustrate Christ. If the actions aren't there it is not a sign that your deeds arent saving, it is a sign that you have not received the Grace that Christ brings.
 
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Zossima

Guest
#19
It never ceases to amaze me the number of people who define the is-ness of the Church by some sort of idealized doctrinal purity. As if the Church is the result of what one thinks about the Bible. Neither you nor I or any other common man living built or can build the Church. When Jesus said, "On this rock I will build my church" (Matt. 16:18), the Greek word for "build" is the same word used in Gen. 2:22 (LXX). For those of you who may not have figured it out yet, the "one new man" (Eph. 2:15) and the "new creature" (2 Cor. 5:17) of which Paul writes is the Church.
When it is written in Genesis that man is made in the image and likeness of God, "man" here doesn't refer simply to a man but to mankind. God is love and God is triune and neither can be true without the other. Now if mankind is made in the image and likeness of God, then mankind is too a common nature shared among numerous persons. The tragedy of the fall begins first with a division between Eve and Adam through her partaking of the fruit without first seeking counsel from Adam. Adam created a division between God and mankind when he ate of the fruit without seeking counsel from the Father. Through His incarnation (and all that that entails) Christ overcame the division between God and mankind; through His Church, the ongoing manifestation of His incarnation to the world, Christ overcomes the divisions between men and thus in the new creation, the Church, the fall is overcome.
The Church is not a body of doctrine derived from Scripture, it is a body being built by Christ from the body of "Adam" (mankind) since the Day of Pentecost. What does this body look like? Consider Hosea who was asked by God to join himself in marriage to a harlot which relationship then became a symbol for the relationship between God and Israel. Do you think Christ did differently? "While we were yet sinners, Christ died for us" and "gave Himself up for her" (Rom. 5:8, Eph. 5:25). Now if Christ was as physically ugly as the prophet indicated (Is. 53:2-12) and marred by our sins, what do you suppose His body (the Church) looks like after two millenia of being marred by our sins? If you are looking for an outwardly righteous appearing church, then you will most likely fall prey to a false church (2 Cor. 11:13-15, Matt. 7: 22, 23). Those are the ones who are like the Pharisee in the parable about the Pharisee and the Publican. If, however, you sincerely feel like the Publican (Luke 18:10-14), then you are probably on the right track wherever you are coming from.

the sinner, Zossima
 
O

ONE_LORD

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#20
The Bible is the final authority on the Church. Not the baptist code nor the methodist code ,or any of the protestant codes.. those are all man-made doctrines from satan himself