What is "God's Will"?

[Soldier4Hiim]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]The Will of God[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]It is nothing more than the arrogance of man to believe that Jehovah God has an exact predetermined plan for each of His creation and presume to call it “the will of God”. This concept flies in the face of the biblical precept of free will. As a matter of fact the word predestination is never mentioned in scripture although the concept is always associated with salvation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]The New Testament speaks of predestination in many places. Yet it teaches it most clearly in Romans 8:29-30 and Ephesians 1:3-6. Romans 8:29-30 declares: "For [those] whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover, [those] whom He predestined these He also called, whom He called these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified" (NASB). Ephesians 1:3-6 teaches: 'Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before Him in love, having predestined us to adoptions as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He has made us accepted in the Beloved" (NASB).[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]The Bible also teaches about predestination in Acts 13:48, Ephesians 1:7-8, 2 Thess. 2:13-14, and 2 Tim. 1:9. The "elect" are mentioned in Matthew 24:31, Mark 13:22, Luke 18:7, Romans 8:33, 11:7, Colossians 3:12, 2 Timothy 2:10, Titus 1:1, I Peter 1:2, 1 Peter 5:13; 2 John 1:1, 13.[/FONT]



[FONT=Georgia, serif]Scripture clearly associates the concept of predestination with those called to be believers in Christ Jesus (The Elect) and not with Jehovah God being in complete control over every decision that is made by mankind or by the angels for that matter.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]To believe in this worldly view of predestination, that of God creating man as a robot, is not only UN-biblical but illogical in light of scripture. It presupposes that Almighty God is unbending and unyielding and that mankind has no choice but to submit to His will .[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Yes it is true that there are times, such as in the case of Jonah for example, where God has a plan for certain people. That does not mean however that He controls every aspect of their lives nor does it mean that every aspect of our lives is etched in stone. We must not confuse the concept of predestination with God's view of us from the perspective of His Omnipresence & Omnipotence. God is not constrained by time and subsequently, knowing the future, He knows the decisions that we will make during our life times. This does not mean that He did not give us free will rather that He knows the decisions that we will make because He has seen the future. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Now there are many who argue that free will does not exist and to believe that it does is an affront to the sovereignty of Almighty God. This is a false teaching with absolutely no basis in scriptural truth. In fact, in the light of scriptural evidence, this notion makes God out to be a puppet master who get's his kicks out of playing with the minds and emotions of his puppets. Perhaps this notion depicts their god but it certainly doe's not mine.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 32:9) And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiff-necked people:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 32:10)Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Moses speaking) (Exo 32:13)Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit itfor ever.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 32:14)And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]In the Hebrew this verse is transliterated as:[/FONT]
[FONT=Georgia, serif]and he is regretting Yahweh on the evil which he spoke to do to people of him[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]The question here is did the petition of Moses cause God to regret or repent of the decision that He made in anger and did God change His mind, so to speak, or not?[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]In Genesis chapter 18 where God was going to lay waste to Sodom and Gomorrah:[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Gen 18:22) And the men turned their faces from thence, and went toward Sodom: but Abraham stood yet before the LORD.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Gen 18:23) And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Throughout the rest of the chapter we see our loving Father, in the heat of His anger, communing with Abraham and giving credence to his petitions. Subsequently Lot and his family were saved because of their righteousness in God's eyes.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]To believe in the worldly view of predestination and it's application to every moment of the life of every created soul is a tool of oppression. If God is so unmovable, if His plan for us is so etched in stone, why then should we ask? Why then do we knock? [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]Holy Scripture tells us that we were created and made in the image and likeness of God. If God, having the free will to change His mind, and the angels the choice to follow Lucifer or God, why then do we not have the same choices in our lives?[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]We do have a choice, we do have free will, and anyone who teaches otherwise is false and have their reward awaiting them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Joh 6:40) And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]It is God's will (His pleasure) that the world be saved through Christ Jesus. But not all will be saved. Even the elect can be deceived. The only thing etched in stone Brothers and Sisters is God's love for his people and His children. Everything else is negotiable through prayer. [/FONT]

Lastly I submit that God will give his people that which they desire even if it is outside of His will.



[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 16:8)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And Moses said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]This shall be,[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]when the LORD shall give you in the evening flesh to eat[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], and in the morning bread to the full; for that the LORD heareth your murmurings which ye murmur against him: and what [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]are[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] we? [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]your murmurings [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]are[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] not against us, but against the LORD.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 16:13)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And it came to pass, that at even the quails came up, and covered the camp[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]: and in the morning the dew lay round about the host.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]God gave the people quails even though their murmurings were against Him and His provision of manna which was sufficient but not enough for them. [/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]And Again[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](1Sa 8:6)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Give us a king to judge us[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](1Sa 8:7)[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif] And the LORD said unto Samuel, [/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif]Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me[/FONT][FONT=Georgia, serif], that I should not reign over them.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif]And God gave them kings to rule over the people in the face of their rejection of Him.[/FONT]




[FONT=Georgia, serif]Conclusion: God's will is not that His creation be as puppets rather a free thinking people who “choose” to do that which is pleasing to Him. That is the sole purpose of the law. God expressed those things which are pleasing to Him through His laws or commandments. This is His will. This is his pleasure. That we, by virtue of our free will choose to obey Him.[/FONT]


[FONT=Georgia, serif](Exo 16:4) Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.[/FONT]

 

[Consumed]

1 Peter 2:15-25
15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men

16as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.​

18Servants, be submissive to your masters with all fear, not only to the good and gentle, but also to the harsh.
19For this is commendable, if because of conscience toward God one endures grief, suffering wrongfully.
20For what credit is it if, when you are beaten for your faults, you take it patiently? But when you do good and suffer, if you take it patiently, this is commendable before God.
21For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps:​

22​

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

There is a lot that I think is wrong with this post, start to finish. But I think we'll be writing tomes if I tried to respond to all of it. Instead, I'll just pick something quick and easy.

At one point you complain about what I'll call the "predestinarian" position being illogical. (In fact your entire post argues against a position that *no one* holds to. I suspect that you think you're arguing against what's called "Calvinism," but you don't accurately represent the Calvinist position; rather, you caricature it.) You then say: [FONT=Georgia, serif]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Georgia, serif]God is not constrained by time and subsequently, knowing the future, He knows the decisions that we will make during our life times. This does not mean that He did not give us free will rather that He knows the decisions that we will make because He has seen the future.

[/FONT]​

So if this is the case, then all of man's choices are fixed. He cannot make a choice contrary to the one God sees him making, otherwise God's "knowledge" would be invalidated.

If knowledge is something like justified, true belief and God knows that tomorrow I will order pepperoni pizza for dinner, then tomorrow I cannot choose to not have pepperoni pizza for dinner (or else God didn't know I would have pepperoni pizza for dinner).

Thus, does your position end up looking like we are all robots and puppets as you put it?

 

[Banister]

I think the point is God knows what you will choose. However it's not the same as God choosing for you.

But yeah a lack of free will is a totally ridiculous concept. Unless of course you are going to say everything that happens is pre-destined like rapes, murders, genocides, and child abuse...

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I think the point is God knows what you will choose. However it's not the same as God choosing for you.

But yeah a lack of free will is a totally ridiculous concept. Unless of course you are going to say everything that happens is pre-destined like rapes, murders, genocides, and child abuse...

I realize God knowing what you will choose does not = God choosing for you. I didn't draw that conclusion in my post. I drew the conclusion that if God knows what you will choose you can't make a contrary choice. So instead of God "predestining" our lives we must have something else fixing it... I don't know what that might be. The laws of physics?

 

[Soldier4Hiim]

Thus, does your position end up looking like we are all robots and puppets as you put it?

Credo_ut_Intelligam I do not believe so. If you read a history book, for example, do you question weather or not the participants of history exercised free will over their lives? Of course not. Why is this any different?

P.S. Which are you? Do you believe to understand or understand to believe? Neither of which by the way is faith based as is Christianity. A friend told me way back in the day that if I was looking for a religion that made sense, Christianity is the least desirable. How true that is and how I praise Almighty God for His gift of faith which surpasses all reason when a definitive answer can't be found.

Banister: You'd be surprised at how many people denounce free will and are advocates of the notion that the will of God is predestined in all of our lives moment to moment.

 

[Banister]

I realize God knowing what you will choose does not = God choosing for you. I didn't draw that conclusion in my post. I drew the conclusion that if God knows what you will choose you can't make a contrary choice. So instead of God "predestining" our lives we must have something else fixing it... I don't know what that might be. The laws of physics?

I wasn;t actually refering to your post, but since you referred to mine. In regards to not making a contrary choice, I don't think thats an issue. If you look at God as a being outside of time, it really wouldnt affect free will at at all. It's just he has already seen your future, there is no making a contrary choice, since the choices in the future are things you will choose yourself, he already knows how you will react to various stimuli and things he places in your life. You have the option all long to make 'contrary choices' it's just that God already knows when you are going to do that as well.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Credo_ut_Intelligam I do not believe so. If you read a history book, for example, do you question weather or not the participants of history exercised free will over their lives? Of course not. Why is this any different?

No one has any trouble saying the past is fixed. But lots of people have trouble saying the future is fixed. So I don’t think your history example is any good. After all, if you don’t have any problem with our futures being fixed in the same way that our past is (we cannot change the future just as we cannot change the past), then I don’t see why you have a problem with our future being fixed (predestined) by God.

If you want to know why it’s different, besides the fact that lots of people don’t assume the future is fixed like the past, consider that most people look at the past thinking “I know that I could have done ‘x’ instead of ‘y’…” In other words, they assume that the past could have been different. But that just gets back to my argument!

P.S. Which are you? Do you believe to understand or understand to believe?

Why would you bother asking the question since my moniker explicitly states which I “am”?

Neither of which by the way is faith based as is Christianity.

I have no idea what this means, but I’m sure you’re going to need an argument for it either way.

A friend told me way back in the day that if I was looking for a religion that made sense, Christianity is the least desirable.

Your friend was wrong. Christianity is the only worldview that makes sense.

How true that is and how I praise Almighty God for His gift of faith which surpasses all reason when a definitive answer can't be found.

That certain truths about the Christian “surpass” reason does not mean that all of it is unreasonable. Right now, there are truths of quantum mechanics surpass our reason. But this doesn’t mean that all that we know about quantum mechanics is unreasonable or that quantum mechanics is by its very nation unreasonable or irrational. After all, you've tried to give a reasonable argument in your post against predestination. So obviously you would agree with me, even if you think you would disagree with me.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

I wasn;t actually refering to your post, but since you referred to mine. In regards to not making a contrary choice, I don't think thats an issue. If you look at God as a being outside of time, it really wouldnt affect free will at at all. It's just he has already seen your future, there is no making a contrary choice, since the choices in the future are things you will choose yourself, he already knows how you will react to various stimuli and things he places in your life. You have the option all long to make 'contrary choices' it's just that God already knows when you are going to do that as well.

Well Soldier4Him said God "has seen the future". This can imply that God is inside time (the present time) "looking down the corridors of time" so to speak. But putting God outside of time doesn't get around the problem. If God, being outside time, knows all things as though they were present to him, then God knows that tomorrow I will eat pepperoni pizza with just as much certainty as though I had already eaten pepperoni pizza! So the problem remains, the "future" is fixed.

(But in fact the "God outside time" view doesn't make much sense to me. Does this mean there are two realities: one in which my future self is eating pepperoni pizza presently before God and one which I haven't yet eaten pepperoni pizza (the reality I am experiencing now)? Of course that doesn't make sense, there can't be two realities. So one of them has to be an illusion if one or the other is real. Either my perception right now is an illusion or God's perception is an illusion. Obviously we would want to say it is mine. But I won't bother getting into all this time business again. I argued it at some length with Lil_Rush a long time ago here: http://christianchat.com/christian-young-adults-forum/12223-does-god-know-future-3.html (My posts start at number 51)

 

[Soldier4Hiim]

Credo_ut_Intelligam

The history example is actually perfect from the human perspective because that is the only direction that we can see. From the present backwards. When God is in the future looking back He has the same perspective of looking back as we do only from a different point of view.

When the present is viewed from the future it is the past. When the present is viewed from the past it is the future. I hope that explains it better. If not, oh well.

My point for beginning this string was to support the argument that free will does exist and that predestination does not mean control of every aspect of our lives and to do so biblicaly, which I believe was accomplished. I did not post it to engage in pseudo-intellectual banter.

God Bless.

 

[ThusSaithBry]

I just want to comment that in my experience it has been a mix of both. When I first accepted Jesus as my savior (my choice) and prayed that he would come into my heart nothing really changed. I started reading Christian books and listening to Christian music but my heart was still hard. I could go to church in the morning and watch terrible secular tv sitcoms in the evening and delight in them. There certainly wasn't a spirit in me transforming me from the inside out, I was trying to transform myself from the outside in.

Then God took action, I wont get into detail but I lost most of everything I had, my father died, my finances were ruined and my health deteriorated to a miserable degree. I finally came to the realization that God wasn't just all I needed, He was all I had and His grace was always all I have ever had from every breath I ever took to every time my heart beat. Almost every moment of my life was spent sinning against Him.

Then something amazing happened, my heart of stone was turned to a heart of flesh. I recognized my sin for what it was and I started to repent and believe continuously (and still do) Then I was filled with the Holy Spirit and transformed into a new creature and that transformation continues to this day as does the repentance and belief.

My will wanted to come to God but when Gods will chose to come to me thats when everything changed. My choice didn't seem to do anything (possibly removing the intellectual wall I had built). God choosing to fill and work in me did.

I make choices but they seem to have no effect vs Gods will, God does everything in my life and everything I choose to do just seems terribly wicked...

Im still trying to hash this out myself but to me there seems to be no escaping Gods will in my life. He opened my heart and chose to save me and he gives me the will to continue in repentance and belief.

 

[Soldier4Hiim]

Banister I was beginning to think that I wasn't articulating my position well enough but I see that you understand it completely.

I am curious as to who cast the disagree vote for the sake of discussion. And I'm also curious to know if the person understood my point before casting the vote.

Vita perseverat

 

[Soldier4Hiim]

ThusSaithBry - That's a wonderful testimony and I have no doubt that God is working in your life. Pretty much the same thing happened to me some 20 years ago. God broke me down to the point where I had no where else to turn.

The choice to turn to God however, or not, is still ultimately ours. If the same thing were to happen to an atheist would he/she have turned to God? More than likely not. That is my point.

This is not to take anything from God. We seek Him because he was seeking us. We love Him because He first loved us. That truth however has nothing do do with the existence of free will or freedom of choice. God loves all of His creation equally yet He is not a respecter of men/women. He so loved THE WORLD that he sent His only begotten son. He wants all to be saved.

The choice however is ours.

God Bless

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Credo_ut_Intelligam

The history example is actually perfect from the human perspective because that is the only direction that we can see. From the present backwards. When God is in the future looking back He has the same perspective of looking back as we do only from a different point of view.

When the present is viewed from the future it is the past. When the present is viewed from the past it is the future. I hope that explains it better. If not, oh well.

My point for beginning this string was to support the argument that free will does exist and that predestination does not mean control of every aspect of our lives and to do so biblicaly, which I believe was accomplished. I did not post it to engage in pseudo-intellectual banter.

God Bless.

1) You're the one who brought up logical problems. I was responding to the issue *you* brought up. So if you think this is pseudo-intellectual banter you've got only yourself to blame.

2) I don't see that you've salvaged your history example. The past is fixed. It can't be changed. I had turkey for dinner last night. I can't now choose to have had chicken for dinner. So the past is fixed. Are you admitting that the future is just as fixed as the past? So tomorrow I may murder someone and there is nothing I can do now to avoid that? In which case, your own position looks just as puppet like as the predestinarian position.

 

[Banister]

Ok let's say God's knowledge of your life is more like a tree...he knows your future and he knows all the possible decisions you can make and how your life would branch differently from those choices, but the choice is solely yours. Like youre choice of dinner tonight. You can have chinese, pizza, or mexican. Whatever choice you make invalidates the other paths you could have taken in life and you are set on the chinese for dinner path, which has infinite numbers of future decisions/branches? So maybe God knows all possible outcomes of any decision you ever make?

I mean God is all-knowing, not just past and present. So there has to be in some since a way that he does already know your future.

 

[Credo_ut_Intelligam]

Ok let's say God's knowledge of your life is more like a tree...he knows your future and he knows all the possible decisions you can make and how your life would branch differently from those choices, but the choice is solely yours. Like youre choice of dinner tonight. You can have chinese, pizza, or mexican. Whatever choice you make invalidates the other paths you could have taken in life and you are set on the chinese for dinner path, which has infinite numbers of future decisions/branches? So maybe God knows all possible outcomes of any decision you ever make?

I mean God is all-knowing, not just past and present. So there has to be in some since a way that he does already know your future.

Yes, God knows every possible state of affairs. So God knows what would happen if you chose to throw a brick through your computer right now, even though you won't make that choice. And God knows which choice you will actually make as well. So the problem remains.

And the further point I'm making is that Soldier4Him wants to say that passages like Exodus 32 create a problem for the belief that God meticulously governs affairs, but his own views on God's foreknowledge create just as big a problem! So if he thinks he can hold the two beliefs (God has absolute foreknowledge and God gets angry and "changes his mind"), then so can the "predestinarian". That is his objection after all: If God governs these affairs, why is he getting upset and why is he said to be changing his mind? Well, right back at ya: if God knows the future, why is he getting upset since he already knew it was going to happen in eternity past and how can he change his mind since he knew what he was going to do all along?

So either Soldier4Him has sunk his own battleship, or he missed the target all together.

 

[ReinItIn]

I believe Gods will is that we believe in his Son, that we come out of the snare of the enemy and make Christ, Lord of all. It is his will that we turn from sin and our sinful nature and recieve eternal life. The Spirt and the bride say "come". We should also say "come" . Drink from the waters of life freely given as a gift. It is the work of the Spirt that sets us free from the bondage of sin. It is the will of our Father that we be saved.

 

[ReinItIn]

By the way, Calvanism is a doctrine of men, Not the Gospel of peace. Men don't know the way. Only Christ knows the way. He is the way the truth and the Life. Point is.. If your not following the Spirit of Christ in you. Your probably going the wrong way.

 

[mpaper345]

When the Bible says that God predestined us to salvation,it means that God already had the plan to give mankind salvation before He laid down the foundation of the world,so it is the same as if mankind already had that salvation in the beginning,and that salvation is to mankind in general,and God is not willing that any should perish but all come to repentance.

God calls things that have not yet happened as though they already happened,for if it is a plan of God to happen in the future,it will surely come to pass.

The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world,although we know it did not happen until 4000 years later.
All the works of God were finished from the foundation of the world.
The blood of all the prophets was shed from the foundation of the world.

We are predestined from the foundation of the world,which means salvation to mankind already given before God created the world,but we decide whether to choose that salvation or not.

God's kingdom is based on true love,so God gave us the choice whether to love Him or not,for God wants people to dwell with Him for all eternity that made the choice to love Him.
You can program your computer to say I love you,but it does not love you,but has no choice but to say I love you.God would not want that kind of love,robotic love,for it is not love.

 

[Soldier4Hiim]

Apparently you are unable to comprehend the concept that we as humans have a fixed perspective in time because we are fixed in time. We exist in the present and can only see the past. God however is not fixed in time and can view our present from the perspective of the future (which we can not actually do).

You are looking at the situation from the perspective of a human fixed in time. If you look at it from God's perspective of looking at the present from the perspective of being in the future you will understand what I am saying. If you can't do that you will not understand. It's really that simple Bro.

I'm really not trying to be condescending here. I'm just being truthful. Just because you don't see it now doesn't mean that it is not so.