What is sin?

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eph610

Guest
#81
a new commandment added.
what did that delete?
If you love your neighbor as the Messiah did, you are being (truly) led by the Spirit and keeping the commandments.
one does not violate the other.
Can you not see that?
my last comment to you because we are never going anywhere with this silly conversation, because you wont convince me and I wont convince you.

Righteousness does not come from anyone keeping the law.
We are made righteous through our faith in the completed work of Messiah.

Any form of the Law says I do for me because if I don't I fail and will be judged accordingly......
This is because the power of sin is the law.

The Law of Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus says I do for others because of what he did for me......
If do for others because I love them, then I have fulfilled all of the law...Rom 13.8-9
This is because Through Messiah I have been freed from the Law of sin and death.....

If righteousness comes from the law then Messiah died needlessly....

Good evening and blessings to you....
 
J

jcha

Guest
#82
If you are going to keep quoting Matt 5.17 quote the WHOLE verse and not just the part that fits your religion.

Did or did not Yeshua haMashiach say: [SUP]17 [/SUP]“Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


If Yeshua haMashiach came to fulfill the whole law, then why are you trying to be Yeshua haMashiach?
Matthew 5:17-18
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

So then, what does it mean to "abolish" something? Now, what does it mean to "fulfill" something? Take note that Yeshua said he came to do one and NOT the other. They cannot, therefore, mean the same thing. However, we are informed by the church leaders that they basically mean the same thing and bring about the same result. Think about it. According to the American Heritage Dictionary, "abolish" means "To do away with; to put an end to." And yet, what are we told that "fulfill" means? The definition given to us is the same - "To do away with; put an end to by way of completing." The
Greek word for fulfill here is ‘pleroo.’ It's the same word used in Matthew 3:15 when Yeshua is baptized by John. Yeshua replied,

Matthew 3:15
“Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill (pleroo) all righteousness.”
Then John consented. According to the interpretation that the Church gives Matthew 5:17-18 regarding
‘fulfill,’ we don't have to worry about righteousness since Christ fulfilled it at His baptism. Sounds absurd right?

The next thing that Yeshua states in Matthew 5 is that not one thing will be removed from the Law 'til everything is accomplished. "Everything is accomplished" is a direct referral to all prophecy being completed. This is NOT a referral to the cross when Yeshua stated, "It is finished," because there was and is prophecy yet to be fulfilled. Pentecost was just one thing that had to be fulfilled AFTER the cross. Verse 18 in Matthew 5 is a direct point to Revelation 21:5-6.
Revelation 21:5-6
He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life.

All prophecy is completed at this point, when Heaven and Earth are made new. It shouldn’t be any
surprise, then, that Yeshua said, “Until Heaven and Earth pass away…” in the context of all of the Law and Prophets being fulfilled! According to Peter, we are still waiting for that to happen.
2 Peter 3:13
Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for a new heavens and new earth in which righteousness dwells.

If you ask most people today, I am sure that they will agree that this is still the same Heaven and Earth that Yeshua walked on during His statements in Matthew 5. It's interesting how many, in all their fascination with prophecy, will cling to the news of the day as they watch for prophecy to unfold but conveniently cast aside the Law - that which Yeshua Himself said would NOT be done away with until ALL prophecy is completed.

Let's look at some other places this word is used.

Romans 15:13
May the God of hope fill (pleroo) you with all joy and peace as you trust in him, so that you may overflow with hope by the power of the Holy Spirit.
So does this mean to do away with or put an end to all your joy and peace? I don't think so.
Colossians 1:25
I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness (pleroo) —

So, why do so many tell us that this word means "to do away with" or "to put an end to" in Matthew chapter 5? It just doesn't make sense. We also see ‘pleroo’ used in a past tense form in James 2:23.
James 2:23
And the Scripture was fulfilled (pleroo) that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend.
It doesn't mean to do away with or put an end to. It simply means to bring to fruition in one’s life. To
fully live it and preach it. So, the law is to be lived out in our life with Yeshua as our example. Remember, obedience to the law is NOT our salvation. It's the fruit, the evidence, of our salvation.

[video]http://www.119ministries.com/teachings/video-teachings/detail/abolish-or-fulfill/[/video]
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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83
#83
The 10 were actually verbally given by God to Moses and the rest of the children of Israel at Sinai, when Jesus took his blood to the mercy seat in Heaven the 10 and other 603 were perfectly fulfilled. Christians were never or now under the Mosaic covenant. Jesus said he gave us a new commandment and Paul also confirms that new commandment in Romans 13.8-9.

1 John 3 and all of 1 John is John teaching us to deal with gnostic doctrine and the spirit of anti christs. Using 1 John 3.4 to define SIN is a pretext.
small correction making all the difference !
GOD personally gave the 10 to the people first - then to Moses when they refused to hear God anymore Ex 20v19; Deut 5. tell the truth friend, not your own fabrication. I can see you are messing with scripture.
 
R

RobbyEarl

Guest
#84
According to law you could look at women with lust in your heart and commit no foul. But, Jesus said that if you did you already committed adultery. Which is greater law or the morality of God? what was the gauge before Moses?
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#85
Yes it does, Titus 2.11-15 says so

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, [SUP]12 [/SUP]instructing us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, [SUP]13 [/SUP]looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, [SUP]14 [/SUP]who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.
And you are saying it is ungodly to keep the commandments/law of God ? Then Jesus must have been a very lawless man.
 
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eph610

Guest
#86
small correction making all the difference !
GOD personally gave the 10 to the people first - then to Moses when they refused to hear God anymore Ex 20v19; Deut 5. tell the truth friend, not your own fabrication. I can see you are messing with scripture.
Wrong, Ex 19 God called Moses and Aaron up to his level first....then sent them back down..

The real issue with all you scribes and lawyers is the fact you base your entire theology on communicated Bible Knowledge...which is not bad, but becomes easily distorted and eventually leads people into deception, because they refuse to check for themselves.

Now as I said to the other scribe named disciplemike, we too are done, you won't convince me and I won't convince you...
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#87
And you are saying it is ungodly to keep the commandments/law of God ? Then Jesus must have been a very lawless man.
Um okay, in a sense keeping law leads to self righteousness. It's a way of saying look what i do or have done. The father will not accept it. If He would or could He would not have sent His Son to the Cross. The Patriarchs could not keep His law, the Prophets could not keep His law, Peter said why should we lay on the gentiles that we nor our fathers could bear.

Upon salvation God's morality is written in our hearts and is the fruit of the Spirit.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#88
They are not even aware of the fact there the law is not just the 10 commandments; there are 613 by laws attached to the 10 commandments!! so make sure to keep all of that if you want to stick to the law!!!
Forgive me - you are not even aware that only the 'works of the law were abolished on the cross Eph 2v15, and not the 10 commandments which are a separate spiritual law, eternal, holy, just and good.
We are to 'put difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10.
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#89
Forgive me - you are not even aware that only the 'works of the law were abolished on the cross Eph 2v15, and not the 10 commandments which are a separate spiritual law, eternal, holy, just and good.
We are to 'put difference between holy and unholy Lev 10v10.
Even the ten are self righteousness.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#90
Um okay, in a sense keeping law leads to self righteousness. It's a way of saying look what i do or have done. The father will not accept it. If He would or could He would not have sent His Son to the Cross. The Patriarchs could not keep His law, the Prophets could not keep His law, Peter said why should we lay on the gentiles that we nor our fathers could bear.

Upon salvation God's morality is written in our hearts and is the fruit of the Spirit.
People in the OT did not have the help from Jesus that we have....or do you think God gives us what we can not do and then punish us for it ?
IF God's morality were written on your heart you would keep His commandments - all 10 !
The 'godly man will keep God's law/commandments and there is no pride involved - the natural/carnal man can not , being at 'enmity with God Rom 8v7.
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#91
People in the OT did not have the help from Jesus that we have....or do you think God gives us what we can not do and then punish us for it ?
IF God's morality were written on your heart you would keep His commandments - all 10 !
The 'godly man will keep God's law/commandments and there is no pride involved - the natural/carnal man can not , being at 'enmity with God Rom 8v7.
Which commandment did Noah Keep? which one did Abraham, Issac and Jacob keep? Show me.
 

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Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#92
Even the ten are self righteousness.
Are you setting yourself up as JUDGE of God's Commandments ? If you don't want to keep them that is your choice. GOD has every right to be selfrighteous seeing HE is perfect !
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#93
Are you setting yourself up as JUDGE of God's Commandments ? If you don't want to keep them that is your choice. GOD has every right to be selfrighteous seeing HE is perfect !
I by no means am judge. If your faith is in keeping law, My sister you have missed it. Again I ask you what law did Abraham keep?
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#94
When the children of Israel were slaves to Egypt which law did they keep for God to set them free?
 

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Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#95
Which commandment did Noah Keep? which one did Abraham, Issac and Jacob keep? Show me.
We are told to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling - not to mind or meddle in others. God does things different with different people, it's no business of yours how He does it Joh 21v22 as example.
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#96
We are told to 'work out our own salvation with fear and trembling - not to mind or meddle in others. God does things different with different people, it's no business of yours how He does it Joh 21v22 as example.

That's a good side jump. I have no business between you and God. that is not my MO. If keeping law is your Mo then so be it. Romans 14.
 

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Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
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#97
Wrong, Ex 19 God called Moses and Aaron up to his level first....then sent them back down..

The real issue with all you scribes and lawyers is the fact you base your entire theology on communicated Bible Knowledge...which is not bad, but becomes easily distorted and eventually leads people into deception, because they refuse to check for themselves.

Now as I said to the other scribe named disciplemike, we too are done, you won't convince me and I won't convince you...
seems you are not even convinced by scripture -
IF you read correctly ! I said EX 20 v19.....not Ex 19.
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
#98
Law keeping takes the focus off of where our faith should be and that is the Cross. If our faith is firmly seated in the work of the Cross then keeping God's morality becomes second nature. Law is me, faith in the Cross is Him and not me. Abraham had faith in the cross, king David had faith in the Cross. Elijah had faith in the Cross and not law.
 

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Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
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#99
That's a good side jump. I have no business between you and God. that is not my MO. If keeping law is your Mo then so be it. Romans 14.
Yes it is ...Jesus knows how to put people in their place when they are meddling in other's salvation.
Jesus also says to 'keep His commands as He kept His Fathers commands....
doesn't sound like He is telling us to REJECT them....as you seem to suggest.

so what is your complaint re Rom 14 ?
 
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RobbyEarl

Guest
Yes it is ...Jesus knows how to put people in their place when they are meddling in other's salvation.
Jesus also says to 'keep His commands as He kept His Fathers commands....
doesn't sound like He is telling us to REJECT them....as you seem to suggest.

so what is your complaint re Rom 14 ?
I do not reject the law as it is good, but our ability to keep it, Romans 7
Jesus Commands was and is to love your neighbor as yourself for by doing so you have kept the law and the prophets.
The other command that Jesus gave was to preach the gospel to all the Earth. The ten are not mentioned. The only place Jesus talks about the ten are with the rich young ruler, then he tells him to take up his cross and follow Him. Jesus did not give him law, but His way. Come unto me for my yoke is easy and My burden is light. Amen