What is the resurrection of bodies for?

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p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
29,124
5,875
113
#41
Traditional 'folk Christian' belief is that you die and go to heaven and live there as a disembodied spirit. The Bible does not directly state that you go to heaven when you die. Some people infer this from Paul's statement that it is better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. But dying and going to heaven is not emphazed. None of the apostles or other preachers we read about in Acts preach to their audiences that they should repent so they can die or go to heaven. Paul preached about the resurrection and the judgment. Paul, in Acts, is very resurrection-focused, for example in Athens and later after he had been bound in the temple. He made the resurrection of the dead a key point of his trial before the Jews.
I lean more towards believing what Jesus said than Paul.......but, what he said is ok too.....

John 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Folks can argue all they want, but I believe that God the Fathers House is in Heaven where His Throne is.....soooo, yes, I believe I will be in Heaven with my Father one day........you guys (generic you) can be where you want....... s'ok with me

:)
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
7,379
1,176
113
#42
I lean more towards believing what Jesus said than Paul.......but, what he said is ok too.....

John 14:1) Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

4And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know.

Folks can argue all they want, but I believe that God the Fathers House is in Heaven where His Throne is.....soooo, yes, I believe I will be in Heaven with my Father one day........you guys (generic you) can be where you want....... s'ok with me

:)
Read to the end of the book and the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven.
 

luigi

Junior Member
Dec 6, 2015
1,222
216
63
#43
Why not?
Isn't he ruling over Christians now- from Heaven ABOVE?
The Lord is most definitely in heaven, but not exactly ruling yet on the earth.
This occurs when the Lord Omnipotent makes the Lords enemies His footstool (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:13 & 10:13) .
And the commencing to reign on earth occurs somewhere around the end of the beast's 42 month reign in power (Revelation 11:15; 12:9).

Psalm 110:1 The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
543
113
#44
Why not?
Isn't he ruling over Christians now- from Heaven ABOVE?
Are you still a member here? Just curious.

No, Jesus isn't ruler of earth as yet. The earth is still in the power of the evil one. He's "ruler of the world" , John 12:31.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,162
2,378
113
#46
Traditional 'folk Christian' belief is that you die and go to heaven and live there as a disembodied spirit. The Bible does not directly state that you go to heaven when you die. Some people infer this from Paul's statement that it is better to be absent from the body and present with the Lord. But dying and going to heaven is not emphazed. None of the apostles or other preachers we read about in Acts preach to their audiences that they should repent so they can die or go to heaven. Paul preached about the resurrection and the judgment. Paul, in Acts, is very resurrection-focused, for example in Athens and later after he had been bound in the temple. He made the resurrection of the dead a key point of his trial before the Jews.
Excuse me president, but Paul did not emphasize that scripture, as the scripture is very clear in its meaning and that is not the only scripture:

"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

In the scripture above, Jesus states that "in His Father's house are many rooms" The Father's house could only be referring to heaven. Jesus then said He was going to the Father's house/heaven to prepare rooms for the disciples and all believers and that he was coming back to welcome us into his presence so that we could be were He is, i.e. to those rooms which are in the Father's house/heaven.

"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.

In the scripture above Paul is torn between remaining in the body for the benefit of the Philippians, opposed to his body dying and his spirit departing in order to be with the Lord, which infers immediacy.

As I said in a previous post, we have examples of the conscious awareness of the spirits of those who have died, such as Moses and Elijah who appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mount in His glorified state. We also have the 5th seal where John sees the souls of the saints who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.

We have Jesus telling the man crucified next Him, "today you will be with me in paradise," yet their bodies both died that died that day.

We have the spirit of Samuel coming up from Sheol/Hades at Saul's request.

We have two men "the rich man and Lazarus" as well as Abraham, whose bodies had died, but their spirits were found conscious and aware down in sheol/Hades.

We have Stephen, after he was stoned, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," with Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God to receive Stephens spirit.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
7,379
1,176
113
#47
Excuse me president, but Paul did not emphasize that scripture, as the scripture is very clear in its meaning and that is not the only scripture:
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

In the scripture above, Jesus states that "in His Father's house are many rooms" The Father's house could only be referring to heaven. Jesus then said He was going to the Father's house/heaven to prepare rooms for the disciples and all believers and that he was coming back to welcome us into his presence so that we could be were He is, i.e. to those rooms which are in the Father's house/heaven.


In the book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven after the thousand years and the new heaven and the new earth. There are a number of things that happen at the coming of Jesus, the 'parousia' of Jesus.

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of Jesus according to I Thessalonians 4:15 and the surrounding verses. The man of sin is also destroyed by the brighteness of Jesus' coming in II Thessalonians 2:8. If the man of sin is the beast of Revelation, his judgment comes at the end of the book, not the beginning. According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will give the persecuted church rest and execute vengence on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
You may be right that this is about conscience existence in heaven. 'Soul sleep' adherants take it to waking up some time later in the presence of Christ, or some other explanation.

As I said in a previous post, we have examples of the conscious awareness of the spirits of those who have died, such as Moses and Elijah who appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mount in His glorified state.
Can you show me where Elijah died? He was caught up in a fiery chariot. But he did manage to write a letter after that apparently.

We also have the 5th seal where John sees the souls of the saints who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.
I read a post by one of the Greek scholars who used to post on the B-Greek list that 'souls' refers to carcasses in certain places in the LXX and this could have been a picture of the bodies of the saints. I'm not saying I'm sold on that, but are there any other verses where a disembodied individual is called a 'soul'? Are dead believers going to have conscious existence below an altar until the resurrection?

We have Jesus telling the man crucified next Him, "today you will be with me in paradise," yet their bodies both died that died that day.
Are you assuming 'paradise' is heaven? I am not saying I adhere to this, but the other interpretation is that he was saying, "Today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise" meaning he made the statement today.

We have the spirit of Samuel coming up from Sheol/Hades at Saul's request.
We have two men "the rich man and Lazarus" as well as Abraham, whose bodies had died, but their spirits were found conscious and aware down in sheol/Hades.


We have the issue of Sheol or Hades rather than heaven. The interpretation I heard growing up was that the led captivity captive verse was about Jesus taking the departed dead's spirits up to heaven out of paradise between the crucifixion and the resurrection. The evidence seems too sketchy.

We have Stephen, after he was stoned, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," with Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God to receive Stephens spirit.
Which one who does not believe in conscious existence would not interpret to imply conscious existence.


My main concern is with the error of emphasis. Paul, in his evangelistic preaching, did refer to the resurrection of the dead. He called it the hope of the resurrection. In the Bible, he and the other apostles never preached to a crowd about going to heaven when they died.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
7,379
1,176
113
#48
I don't know why my previous post came out in an illegible font color. I have reposted below adding a line or two about Moses that I forgot to add in the previous post.

Ahwatukee said:
Excuse me president, but Paul did not emphasize that scripture, as the scripture is very clear in its meaning and that is not the only scripture:
Ahwatukee said:
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

In the scripture above, Jesus states that "in His Father's house are many rooms" The Father's house could only be referring to heaven. Jesus then said He was going to the Father's house/heaven to prepare rooms for the disciples and all believers and that he was coming back to welcome us into his presence so that we could be were He is, i.e. to those rooms which are in the Father's house/heaven.
In the book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven after the thousand years and the new heaven and the new earth. There are a number of things that happen at the coming of Jesus, the 'parousia' of Jesus.

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of Jesus according to I Thessalonians 4:15 and the surrounding verses. The man of sin is also destroyed by the brighteness of Jesus' coming in II Thessalonians 2:8. If the man of sin is the beast of Revelation, his judgment comes at the end of the book, not the beginning. According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will give the persecuted church rest and execute vengence on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in the saints.
"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body.
You may be right that this is about conscience existence in heaven. 'Soul sleep' adherants take it to waking up some time later in the presence of Christ, or some other explanation.
As I said in a previous post, we have examples of the conscious awareness of the spirits of those who have died, such as Moses and Elijah who appeared and spoke with Jesus on the mount in His glorified state.
Can you show me where Elijah died? He was caught up in a fiery chariot. But he did manage to write a letter after that apparently.

Jude may refer to a work called 'The Assumption of Moses.' There is a belief that Moses was resurrected. If I were a gambling man, I wouldn't place a bet on it. I'm just mentioning counter-arguments I've encountered.

We also have the 5th seal where John sees the souls of the saints who will have been killed during the first 3 1/2 years of that seven year period.
I read a post by one of the Greek scholars who used to post on the B-Greek list that 'souls' refers to carcasses in certain places in the LXX of the Old Testament and this could have been a picture of the bodies of the saints. I'm not saying I'm sold on that, but are there any other verses where a disembodied individual is called a 'soul'? Are dead believers going to have conscious existence below an altar until the resurrection?
We have Jesus telling the man crucified next Him, "today you will be with me in paradise," yet their bodies both died that died that day.
Are you assuming 'paradise' is heaven? I am not saying I adhere to this, but the other interpretation is that he was saying, "Today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise" meaning he made the statement today.
We have the spirit of Samuel coming up from Sheol/Hades at Saul's request.
We have two men "the rich man and Lazarus" as well as Abraham, whose bodies had died, but their spirits were found conscious and aware down in sheol/Hades.
We have the issue of Sheol or Hades rather than heaven. The interpretation I heard growing up was that the led captivity captive verse was about Jesus taking the departed dead's spirits up to heaven out of paradise between the crucifixion and the resurrection. The evidence seems too sketchy.
We have Stephen, after he was stoned, saying "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit," with Jesus "standing" at the right hand of God to receive Stephens spirit.
Which one who does not believe in conscious existence would not interpret to imply conscious existence.

My main concern is with the error of emphasis. Paul, in his evangelistic preaching, did refer to the resurrection of the dead. He called it the hope of the resurrection. In the Bible, he and the other apostles never preached to a crowd about going to heaven when they died.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
792
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#49
When we die, we leave our bodies as pure spirits (or souls, depends on our view of human identity). is there something bad about this state of existence?
 

Scrobulous

Active member
Sep 17, 2018
290
73
28
#50
"I believe... in the resurrection of flesh..."
Apostles' Creed

Why cannot we live as spirits, after we leave this body when it dies? Why is it better to have the old body resurrected (though with new super-properties)?
We COULD live as spirits after the resurrection, but God decided that we would have a spiritual body that seems to incorporate both physicality and spirituality. I guess God knows what he is doing!

In fact there is no end to the number of things that could be true or possible. God has provided a revelation of Himself and his plan, so that we know what WILL happen, not what COULD happen!
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
792
113
#51
We COULD live as spirits after the resurrection, but God decided that we would have a spiritual body that seems to incorporate both physicality and spirituality. I guess God knows what he is doing!

In fact there is no end to the number of things that could be true or possible. God has provided a revelation of Himself and his plan, so that we know what WILL happen, not what COULD happen!
How does a spiritual body incoporate physicality?
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#52
It has to do with the restoration of all things.
Peter touched on that in acts 2
Restoration of the first man Adam.
He was created to live forever.
In part,that is why Jesus is called the 2nd Adam.
We are little Jesus's,christ ians.
We will be "like" him
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#53
In the last resurrection preceding the GWTJ we see that they are resurrected first,then judged.
Those resurrected either enter the kingdom,or the LOF. BODILY.
It has to be bodily.
The restoration of all things.
Back to adam so to speak
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#54
Jesus will never reign on Earth- but OVER Earth.
His throne is next to his God and Father.
Revelation is a SYMBOLIC VISION; no gigantic city will float done to Earth....
....therefore no new heaven,no new earth,no restoration of all things spoken in acts 2,no throne of David?
Uh,nope
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,772
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#55
I don't know why my previous post came out in an illegible font color. I have reposted below adding a line or two about Moses that I forgot to add in the previous post.

Ahwatukee said:

In the book of Revelation, the New Jerusalem descends out of heaven after the thousand years and the new heaven and the new earth. There are a number of things that happen at the coming of Jesus, the 'parousia' of Jesus.

The rapture and resurrection occur at the coming of Jesus according to I Thessalonians 4:15 and the surrounding verses. The man of sin is also destroyed by the brighteness of Jesus' coming in II Thessalonians 2:8. If the man of sin is the beast of Revelation, his judgment comes at the end of the book, not the beginning. According to II Thessalonians 1, Jesus will give the persecuted church rest and execute vengence on them that believe not when He comes to be glorified in the saints.

You may be right that this is about conscience existence in heaven. 'Soul sleep' adherants take it to waking up some time later in the presence of Christ, or some other explanation.

Can you show me where Elijah died? He was caught up in a fiery chariot. But he did manage to write a letter after that apparently.

Jude may refer to a work called 'The Assumption of Moses.' There is a belief that Moses was resurrected. If I were a gambling man, I wouldn't place a bet on it. I'm just mentioning counter-arguments I've encountered.


I read a post by one of the Greek scholars who used to post on the B-Greek list that 'souls' refers to carcasses in certain places in the LXX of the Old Testament and this could have been a picture of the bodies of the saints. I'm not saying I'm sold on that, but are there any other verses where a disembodied individual is called a 'soul'? Are dead believers going to have conscious existence below an altar until the resurrection?

Are you assuming 'paradise' is heaven? I am not saying I adhere to this, but the other interpretation is that he was saying, "Today I say to you, you will be with me in paradise" meaning he made the statement today.


We have the issue of Sheol or Hades rather than heaven. The interpretation I heard growing up was that the led captivity captive verse was about Jesus taking the departed dead's spirits up to heaven out of paradise between the crucifixion and the resurrection. The evidence seems too sketchy.

Which one who does not believe in conscious existence would not interpret to imply conscious existence.

My main concern is with the error of emphasis. Paul, in his evangelistic preaching, did refer to the resurrection of the dead. He called it the hope of the resurrection. In the Bible, he and the other apostles never preached to a crowd about going to heaven when they died.
If you are not making a case for changing the comma concerning paradise and the thief,why bring that forward?
It does not fit.
'Today' would not even need to be spoken. Of course he said it that day.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
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#56
Not quite on the money here: Those that are called in this first fruits church (believer today) are given the Holy Spirit and will be in the first resurrection. Nobody in the first resurrection will have a carnal body. They will reign with Christ on earth for a thousand years (Rev. 5:10 & Rev. 20:6).

The Gentiles addressed in Isaiah are the remnant left alive after the Day of the Lord. Christ will rule them with a rod of iron at first. But they will later catch on to how blessed it is to live according to God's will.

After the one thousand-year reign, the rest of the dead will be resurrected to mortal bodies for the Great White Throne Judgment. With them will be those that died during the millennium (Rev. 20:11-15). :cool:
Pretty much so,yes.
But bodily nonetheless.
(Not sure what you mean by carnal)
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
42,677
17,630
113
#57
It has to do with the restoration of all things.
Peter touched on that in acts 2
Restoration of the first man Adam.
He was created to live forever.
In part,that is why Jesus is called the 2nd Adam.
We are little Jesus's,christ ians.
We will be "like" him
Jesus is called the last Adam :)

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
3,612
2,630
113
#58
hey @trofimus bro could you "start a conversation with me? if you can. the button doesnt work for me.

Im running on low sleep today but if i remember correctly you were amill right?
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
29,124
5,875
113
#59
Jesus is called the last Adam :)

1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
I believe it is important to get all of that passage of Scripture to see the whole picture:

45) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal mustput on immortality.

54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
792
113
#60
hey @trofimus bro could you "start a conversation with me? if you can. the button doesnt work for me.

Im running on low sleep today but if i remember correctly you were amill right?
I am something between amill and postmill.

But generally, I am agnostic regarding eschatology. I lean to the most simple solutions, but the simplicity does not make it the "right one" automatically...