What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

[TheDivineWatermark]

I have no reason to separate out the rapture from the day of Christ the way you do. What is your justification for it?

The phrase in 2Th2:2 is:

--"the Day of the Lord" https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm

...and Paul was telling them (in v.2) not to be convinced by anyone trying to convince them that "THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative (i.e. already arrived at some point in the past and still ongoing in the present)]"

--this ^ idea for them [being presented to them/or he's at least cautioning against others presenting it to them] (tho a faulty / false idea) is something that would have been PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to believe and be convinced of (tho false) because of their present, and ongoing, very negative circumstances they were ongoingly enduring (1:4)

--it would not have been something completely UNREASONABLE for them to believe/be convinced "IS PRESENT" like some of the other things people SUGGEST it means (like "Jesus IS PRESENT," or "Jesus' Kingdom Rule IS PRESENT," or "the rapture IS PRESENT," or... [fill in the blank with all the incorrect "definitions" of "the DOTL [TIME PERIOD]" which IS in the text--all of which are UNREASONABLE things for us to think they would have been convinced/persuaded "IS PRESENT" (with their having utterly no evidence of such things that ppl suggest it was speaking of)]

--I already mentioned "the Day of the Lord/IN THAT DAY" equals the SAME TIME PERIOD (where used together). In this context (the wider context of both chpts) shows to us that it is a "TIME PERIOD which must occur BEFORE Jesus RETURNS... but no one seems to want to examine what is said in this passage (in this regard)

--I supplied the correct definition earlier (it INCLUDES "JUDGMENTs" unfolding, over TIME... not a "singular 24-hr day"!). It is ALL "EARTHLY-LOCATED"

"the Day of Christ/our Lord Jesus Christ" (by contrast) is when WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) are "UP THERE WITH [G4862] HIM"

 

[Oseas]

Jesus said "my kingdom is not of this world"

Of course, this world belongs to Satan and his sons. The Kingdom of God with His sons is separated from the World of Devil and its all rulers and satanic religions, mainly the fake Christians ruled by the Beast of sea and the esoterical/spiritist/kabbalistic Judaism which will be ruled by the Beast like a lamb, but speaks as a Dragon, a false lamb, a false messiah, for both Beasts will make a deal to build the anti-JESUS or Antichrist's Empire. But these two Beasts and their followers will be cast into the lake of fire, into the hell's fire.

1 Cor.15:v.24-26
24 The end comes when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have PUT DOWN down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 11:v.15 & 18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The KINGDOMS OF THIS WORLD are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

18 - And the nations were (WILL BE) angry, and thy wrath is come (God's wrath), and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth. - The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

Revelation 5:v. 10 - 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

Revelation 12:v. 7-11
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

2 Thessalonians 4:v.15-18
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel(Michael-Dan. 12:v.1-3), and with the trump of God (God's trump is with Michael): and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Dan. 12:v.1-3
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1Corinthians 15:v.51-58

51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brethren, be ye stedfast, unmoveable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord.

 

[bluto]

No, Paul is NOT saying [v.1] "don't get shook up REGARDING the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering-together [event] unto Him"

[that is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]



Verse 2 says that, and then goes on to talk HERE (in VERSE 2) about "what" they are not to "get shook up" about, and it's NOT what you just suggested it was ^ , but something completely DIFFERENT.

[… ^ the part you are LEAVING OUT COMPLETELY, which is part of WHY you are not grasping what is actually being said]

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]



Define the "IT" of this sentence (correctly) and then you will begin to see clearly what Paul is actually conveying (which is NOT what you are suggesting he is conveying!)

[that (what you are doing) is to BLUR TOGETHER two entirely distinct items--and most ppl do this (which is incorrect) so don't feel bad, you're not alone! lol]

Most ppl define what v.2 is talking about INCORRECTLY [he's not talking about the "event" of VERSE 1 in this VERSE 2!], thus missing what Paul is actually conveying.




THAT ^ is what happens at the MIDDLE of the trib years (and consistent with 2Th2:4... consistent with Rev13:5-7 context... and consistent with Daniel 9:27b [all of which are speaking of the MIDDLE of the trib];

but "the DOTL" will "ARRIVE" way back at the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3; Matt24:4/Mk13:5; SEAL #1; Dan9:27A[26]/2Th2:9a/8a[not 8b!] all speaking of the "START" of the 7-yrs!... THIS is when "the man of sin be revealed" NOT at the later [MID-trib] 2Th2:4/Matt24:15 [AoD] thing! (which is also the Dan9:27B MIDDLE part)

Look, I can't exegete every single verse for you. I was given you the "gist" of 2 Thess 2:2. He's telling them do not lose your composure to the effect that the "day" singular of the Lord has come. Vs3, he says don't be deceived for the day of the Lord will not come UNTIL the man of sin is revealed.

All one has to do is read the "CONTEXT" and use some common sense by letting the Holy Spirit speak to your heart. The bible does not contradict itself which I'm sure you know. Most of you guys, (not all) have inserted in the text, especially at Matthew 24 all these "bowls, vials, seals etc. are never once mentioned at Matthew 24 and neither here in 1 & 2 Thess. In short, no one (at least to me) has proven a rapture before the tribulation. In fact, if I recall some of the early church fathers were post tribulationist and I believe Irenaeus a Greek bishop believed it.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

 

[presidente]

The phrase in 2Th2:2 is:

--"the Day of the Lord" https://biblehub.com/text/2_thessalonians/2-2.htm

...and Paul was telling them (in v.2) not to be convinced by anyone trying to convince them that "THE DAY OF THE LORD IS PRESENT [PERFECT indicative (i.e. already arrived at some point in the past and still ongoing in the present)]"

--this ^ idea for them [being presented to them/or he's at least cautioning against others presenting it to them] (tho faulty / false) is something that would have been PERFECTLY REASONABLE for them to believe and be convinced of (tho false) because of their present, and ongoing, very negative circumstances they were ongoingly enduring (1:4)

--it would not have been something completely UNREASONABLE for them to believe "IS PRESENT" like some of the other things people SUGGEST it means (like "Jesus IS PRESENT," or "Jesus' Kingdom Rule IS PRESENT," or "the rapture IS PRESENT," or... [fill in the blank with all the incorrect "definitions" of "the DOTL [TIME PERIOD]" which IS in the text--all of which are UNREASONABLE things for us to think they would have been convinced/persuaded "IS PRESENT" (with their having utterly no evidence of such things that ppl suggest it was speaking of)]

--I already mentioned "the Day of the Lord/IN THAT DAY" equals the SAME TIME PERIOD (where used together). In this context (the wider context of both chpts) shows to us that it is a "TIME PERIOD which must occur BEFORE Jesus RETURNS... but no one seems to want to examine what is said in this passage (in this regard)

--I supplied the correct definition earlier (it INCLUDES "JUDGMENTs" unfolding, over TIME... not a "singular 24-hr day"!). It is ALL "EARTHLY-LOCATED"

"the Day of Christ/our Lord Jesus Christ" (by contrast) is when WE (the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY) are "UP THERE WITH [G4862] HIM"

The KJV says 'day of Christ.' I was going with the wording of the translation I was using.

Still, with all you said, that is not an argument for pretrib. Also, your observations about grammar do not point toward pre-trib, so they kind of distract from the conversation, IMO. Neither does the 24-hour argument. The Thessalonians were expecting that they would or might experience the day of the Lord, but Paul taught them that it would not happen before the falling away occurred first and the man of sin be revealed.

After whatever all the man of sin does, as described in the passage and elsewhere, he is destroyed by the brightness of Christ's coming/parousia. Paul wrote in another epistle to the Thessalonians about the rapture and resurrection at Christ's coming/parousia. You keep writing about the day of the Lord-- things that don't contribute to pre-trib, over and over. You haven't given us any reason to think that there are multiple second comings of Christ, multiple parousia. A straightforward reading of the text would have us associate the day of the Lord in II Thessalonians 2:2 with the events of 2:! and the previous chapter.

Why would I believe something like that without evidence? The only reason I can see for you to believe that is that you are trying to figure out a way to make pre-trib work. What is the motivation for doing that? What is the justification for doing that? If there isn't any scripture that teaches pre-trib, there is no justification for it. And it is not justified to reinterpret the apostasy to be the rapture unless the pre-trib rapture were taught somewhere in scripture.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Look, I can't exegete every single verse for you. I was given you the "gist" of 2 Thess 2:2.

Except that (what you gave) is not the gist, and is not the sense, and is not what Paul is conveying (as you had put it in that post )

He's telling them do not lose your composure to the effect that the "day" singular of the Lord has come.

And by your saying "'day' singular" you are suggesting "a singular 24-hr day," but that is NOT how Scripture itself defines it.

And it doesn't take into consideration that his previous letter to them had said that they "KNOW PERFECTLY" that the DOTL so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT and like the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that COMES UPON a woman with child/in labor, and that (by your DISCONNECTING *this* fact from the Olivet Discourse where Jesus had said there would be MANY MORE THAN JUST *ONE* of those, and *WHEN* [in relation (time-wise) to the AoD], which ppl have no problem connecting OTHER parts of the Olivet Discourse to this passage [just in a VAGUE sort of way!]) [and that] our passage states that only *ONE THING* must happen *FIRST* (not these TWO items BOTH are said to happen *FIRST*), which are also DISTINCT ITEMS from each other--"THE Departure *FIRST*" AND "the man of sin BE REVEALED*--and by disregarding the fact that "apostasia = LATER FORM FOR apostasis" ("A STANDING AWAY FROM [a previous standing")... that you cannot accept that it means that we will be outta here *before* the TRIB can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth

Vs3, he says don't be deceived for the day of the Lord will not come UNTIL the man of sin is revealed.

You're missing a vital word here, which you seem to have no qualms doing.

What's up with that?

Is it because it would prove my perspective (I've been presenting) to be CORRECT??



[what ITEM is said there to be *FIRST*… for I do not disagree that "the DOTL" will not be present without the man of sin!! IT WILL, and that is part of the POINT. THEY (those two items) ARRIVE at the SAME POINT IN TIME (not the later 2Th2:4/Matt24:15 thing!!)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT TO CLARIFY this part:

...for I do not disagree that "the DOTL" will not be present without the man of sin!! IT WILL, and that is part of the POINT. THEY (those two items: The DOTL and the man of sin) ARRIVE at the SAME POINT IN TIME (not at the later 2Th2:4/Matt24:15 thing!!)]

 

[dcontroversal]

Are you saying Abel placed his faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ for his sins? They knew of one promised would bruise the head of Satan, but the cross? Really?

If you cannot grasp the fact that Abel offered BLOOD BY FAITH and why....no need to even engage me on the issue.....!!

 

[John146]

If you cannot grasp the fact that Abel offered BLOOD BY FAITH and why....no need to even engage me on the issue.....!!

I’ve always said Abel’s offering was by faith, just not faith in the blood of Jesus at the cross. He was being obedient to the Lord to offer a blood sacrifice. Plain and simple.

 

[dcontroversal]

I’ve always said Abel’s offering was by faith, just not faith in the blood of Jesus at the cross. He was being obedient to the Lord to offer a blood sacrifice. Plain and simple.

Sure......and Jesus was full of crap when he said "In the VOLUME OF THE BOOKIT IS WRITTEN OF ME" and TESTIFIED OF HIM...WAKE UP and smell the roses JOHN...from front to back the entire bible testifies of Jesus.....tragic a saved man cannot find Jesus in every book when the entire book POINTS to him and THE CROSS....

 

[John146]

Sure......and Jesus was full of crap when he said "In the VOLUME OF THE BOOKIT IS WRITTEN OF ME" and TESTIFIED OF HIM...WAKE UP and smell the roses JOHN...from front to back the entire bible testifies of Jesus.....tragic a saved man cannot find Jesus in every book when the entire book POINTS to him and THE CROSS....

We can see it in view of the NT that we have. No one looked forward to the cross. Heck, His own disciples had no clue of the cross before it happened.

 

[dcontroversal]

We can see it in view of the NT that we have. No one looked forward to the cross. Heck, His own disciples had no clue of the cross before it happened.

Jesus must have been stupid to point back to the Serpent being lifted in the wilderness as a SIGN....carry on devaluing the truth and showing a lack of knowlege.....the signs, scriptures and pictures are there...MISSED by them and you

 

[Guojing]

We can see it in view of the NT that we have. No one looked forward to the cross. Heck, His own disciples had no clue of the cross before it happened.

You can't change the minds of those who want to "anticipate revelation".

They assume that whatever they understand now, thanks to the passage of time, must have been understood by everyone, in time past.

 

[John146]

Jesus must have been stupid to point back to the Serpent being lifted in the wilderness as a SIGN....carry on devaluing the truth and showing a lack of knowlege.....the signs, scriptures and pictures are there...MISSED by them and you

Do you really think all those Jews that looked and were saved were thinking about Jesus on the cross? These pictures of Christ are but shadows until after the revelation of the cross.

 

[dcontroversal]

Do you really think all those Jews that looked and were saved were thinking about Jesus on the cross? These pictures of Christ are but shadows until after the revelation of the cross.

Is Jesus the O.T. Messiah or NOT.....now, wake up to the truth that is woven throughout the O.T. beginning with GOD shedding BLOOD in the garden and the PROMISE of victory OVER the enemy in Genesis 3:15! End of story....I find JESUS ALL through the O.T......simple as for one not obstinate against the truth!

 

[Guojing]

Is Jesus the O.T. Messiah or NOT.....now, wake up to the truth that is woven throughout the O.T. beginning with GOD shedding BLOOD in the garden and the PROMISE of victory OVER the enemy in Genesis 3:15! End of story....I find JESUS ALL through the O.T......simple as for one not obstinate against the truth!

Right, if YOU can find Jesus all through the OT, it MUST mean that those born before Jesus must also be able find him there too.

 

[John146]

Is Jesus the O.T. Messiah or NOT.....now, wake up to the truth that is woven throughout the O.T. beginning with GOD shedding BLOOD in the garden and the PROMISE of victory OVER the enemy in Genesis 3:15! End of story....I find JESUS ALL through the O.T......simple as for one not obstinate against the truth!

Ugh! See post #412

 

[dcontroversal]

Right, if YOU can find Jesus all through the OT, it MUST mean that those born before Jesus must also be able find him there too.

Some did Gongshow....he is the MESSIAH and his NAME is given, but of course I fully expect you to deny, reject, and mock the truth which you do on a regular basis by the blather you peddle

 

[dcontroversal]

Ugh! See post #412

Never said or implied the blather peddled by Gongshow!

 

[Oseas]

Look, I can't exegete every single verse for you. I was given you the "gist" of 2 Thess 2:2. He's telling them do not lose your composure to the effect that the "day" singular of the Lord has come. Vs3, he says don't be deceived for the day of the Lord will not come UNTIL the man of sin is revealed.

See, Israel returned to Palestine in 1.948 after 1.878 years of terrible punishments by crucifying the Son of God - JESUS - whose punishments occurred in fulfilment the plagues written by Moses against the Jews in Deuteronomy 28:v.15to68.
From 1948 to 2019 have passed 71 years, so the time of manifestation of the man of sin, the son of perdition or the man doomed to perdition has arrived, in fulfilment of the prophecy of Paul Apostle almost 2.000 years ago or two Days ago, as is written in
2Thessalonians 2:v.2-4 & 9-10:

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the Day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that Day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The son o perdition, the MAN of sin, a Jewish MAN, a former Cherub, though he be the own Satan incarnated, he will manifest himself as a lamb, a false lamb, a false messiah - actually AN IMPOSTER - (Revelation 13:11-18), he has two horns like a lamb but speaks as Dragon, he will be enthroned and will sit in the temple of God, in the great city of Jerusalem, called spiritually Sodom and Egypt, and he will exalt himself above all that is called God, and will oppose all that is worshipped; so that he as God will sit in the temple of God, saying to the whole world that he himself is God.

Yeah, then will be established the abomination of desolation through enthronization of the Beast like a Lamb as a Messiah in the temple of God, in the city of Jerusalem spiritually called Sodom and Egypt (Rev.11:v.8). Daniel 12:v.11-12 says: 11- And from the time...the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days - 1290 days; (JESUS said: And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened). 12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. - 1,335 days

And JESUS warned, saying: Matthew 24:v.15 and 21-24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet (Daniel 12:v.11), stand in the holy place - in the temple of God - (whoso readeth, let him understand):
21 For then shall be great tribulation (as prophesied Daniel 12:v.1), such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man (Pastors, Bishops, Theologians, among others) shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ (the Messiah), or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders (2Thes.2:v.9-10); insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
Dan. 12:v.10 - Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Be ready, what I tell, I tell to all.

 

[presidente]

Sure......and Jesus was full of

Watch the way you word stuff. God can read our forum.