What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
In short, no one (at least to me) has proven a rapture before the tribulation.
Revelation 11:v.2-3 reveals that the outer court is given to the Gentiles. - 2 But the court which is WITHOUT the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months. - 1.260 days, 3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses ...
What will be the scenarios of Jerusalem when the MAN of sin manifest himself in his time? It will be very soon.
THE FIRST SCENARIO THAT WILL BE SEEN IN JERUSALEM
In fact the false messiah will manifest himself in the holy city in short future. The supposed messiah, called Eliyahu, born in Jerusalem, already living in the holy city for decades (this detail is very important to be known to everyone here of course), this MAN as soon as he manifest himself as a messiah in the days to come, he will begin to make signs and lying wonders. This esoteric / spiritist / kabbalistic messiah of the Jews will do great signs and wonders, even will make fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, deceiving them that dwell on the earth by the miracles which he has power to do.
THEN A SECOND SCENARIO WILL BE SEEN IN JERUSALEM
All kind of comunications, the midea in general, will comment the signs and lying wonders of the false messiah and will show them to the whole world, mainly the chanels of television. In the other hand, Ministries and Ministers of all denominations and sects, and all religious leaders of all religious system that exist, they will preach and spread at the four corners of the earth saying Christ is in Jerusalem. Then the whole world will hear by/through the leaders of the evangelical Churches and non evengelic too, that he is the Christ or messiah.
AFTER THAT, A THIRD SCENARIO WILL TAKE PLACE IN JERUSALEM
The third scenario in Jerusalem, the holy city, will be of human upheaval, the environment in the holy city will be of extreme convulsion, multitudes of people and kindreds and tongues and nations will travel to Jerusalem, a strong tourist movements from all nations, mainly religious tourism from all religions and evangelical churches of all denominations and sects will travel to Jerusalem, multitudes will be circling in holy city. Even the Pope will meet the false messiah in the midst of a great human mass of religious people, a strong religious movements towards Jerusalem.
These will be the scenarios in Jerusalem during 42 months as soon as manifest the false messiah in Israel, enthroned in Jerusalem, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt. Thus will fulfil literally what is written in Revelation 11 and 13
A FOURTH AND TERRIBLE SCENARIO TAKE PLACE, A SCENARIO OF WAR
Rev.11:v.2 - the court which is without the temple leave out...it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
See, in paralel with the scenarios above, the true Christians will preach against these satanic movements, the environment on the earth will be a spiritual and religious War and one of the seven heads of the Beast of sea -the Papacy and the woman which rides upon him - will be wounded to death.
Then the false messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an universal religious Empire (iron mixed with clay), and he will give to the Pope his Power, and his Throne and great Authority (Rev.13:v.2, then the deadly wound of the Papacy will be healed and all the World will be wondered after the Pope, called or nicknamed Paulus VII, seated on the throne of the false messiah in the holy city.

And the peoples of the earth included the Jewish people guided by the false messiah, called Eliyahu, they will worship their false messiah which gave power unto the Pope, and also they will worship the Pope, saying, Who is like unto the Pope? who is able to make war with him? Then, face to the environment extremely favorable, the pseudo messiah will make a deal with the Pope to build an universal Empire, a religious Empire, atually an anti-JESUS Empire or AntiChrist's Empire, and according Scriptures who will the FIRST to rule this satanic Empire for 42 months will be the Pope, as it is prophesied in Revelation 13:v.5. (Pope Paulus VII)

Then will be given unto the Pope a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and also will be given power unto him to continue with his blasphemy for forty and two months (Rev.13:v.5) and he will open his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name-JESUS-, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heavenly places in Christ (Eph.1:v.3).

And will be given unto the Pope Paulus VII to make WAR with the saints (Dan.7:v.22&25-27), and to overcome them: and power will be given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations, all that dwell upon the earth will worship him, those whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb that was slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev. 13:v.9-10 say: 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the PATIENCE AND THE FAITH OF THE SAINTS.

continues post below
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
continuation of post above
THE WORST OF ALL WILL COME AND IS AT DOOR
But the worst of all, as soon as ends the FIRST period of 42 months of the Antichrist's Empire, ruled by the Pope Paulus VII, afterwards will assume the RUTHLESS false messiah, and he will rule the Antichrist's Empire for 1.290 days (Dan.12:v.11), then will be established the Abomination of Desolation, the end of the Dispensation is arrived, yeah, this will be the worst of all precedent things as they are described in Revelation 13:v.11-18, but this is for another chapter and a new post.
Among the evangelical people of all denominations will be divisions, they will be hated of all nations for JESUS name's sake, among the believers many will be offended and will betray one another, and will hate one another. And many false prophets shall rise in the churches and will deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days. Dan; 12:v.12 In my vision, the day 1,335 is the day of JESUS's coming.
Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
In Christ JESUS, KING of kings (kings made by Him), and LORD of lords
God bless
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
No rapture for Christians after tribulation. The GT is for unbelievers.

Ezekiel 30:3 KJV


For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
No rapture for Christians after tribulation. The GT is for unbelievers.

Ezekiel 30:3 KJV

For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
JESUS left very very clear saying: Mat;24.v.22-25

22 And except those days (1260 days and more 1290 days - God's predetermined deadlines that will not be exceeded) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE the very elect. --->Because the elects will be living within of great tribulation.

JESUS warned:

25 Behold, I have told you before.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
Daniel 12:v.12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,216
1,179
113
Philippines Age 40
T
JESUS left very very clear saying: Mat;24.v.22-25

22 And except those days (1260 days and more 1290 days - God's predetermined deadlines that will not be exceeded) should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE the very elect. --->Because the elects will be living within of great tribulation.

JESUS warned:

25 Behold, I have told you before.

The deceived elect are the jews. The tribulation is the last chance for them.
 
Mar 2, 2019
216
16
18
T
The deceived elect are the jews. The tribulation is the last chance for them.
Ephesians 2:v.11-22

11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:

22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
13,111
4,374
113
What would be your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib rapture?

My Church teaches it, all the good teachers I know teach it and everyone and their momma believes in it, but its largely foreign in Church history (or things are snipped outta context by pre-tribbers to try to prove it, which I will forgive cause aint nobody got time to read all the church fathers' and many of them are in error too).

I cant see it as being something like: "Yo heres a verse..." it seems to be more like the kind of doctrine that requires some seeds planted and questions asked and saying thats to a different group and making charts showing "differences" between rapture verses and second coming verses. They can be differences OR its just the same event and its trouble to unbelievers and rest to believers like in 2 thessalonians 1:7-9. It depends on how you look at it. BEFORE anyone says it, YES I know the TRINITY is kind of like that too! Which is SAD to me, wish we had a clear ONE VERSE for the trinity, but WHO AM I to complain?

Some proofs I have heard, which all are good imo:

-Jesus wont put His body through wrath AGAIN
-People are RETURNING from heaven with Jesus in Rev 19, so they need to be up there before that return
-The bridegroom parable from Matthew 25
-John 14:1-3 literally cant be fulfilled in historical premillennialism, only in amill,postmill and dispensational premillennialism (correct me if im wrong)


I guess the point of this thread is: IF someone asked you: "Hey, show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible?" WHERE would you take them? What would be your GO-TO verse(s)?
first God has supernaturally saved His people as a normative. The Flood, the crossing of the Red sea, In Battle , and by His word spoken. Jesus said He would not suffer us to see judgement. All agree in the tribulation as being Gods wrath & judgment poured out on the earth. The Christian is not subjected to that judgement. so the same idea of a verse here or there in context as to:


One: God will divinely protect us through the seven year Trib.

Two: remove us from the seven year Trib.
 

TooFastTurtle

Active member
Apr 10, 2019
460
247
43
first God has supernaturally saved His people as a normative. The Flood, the crossing of the Red sea, In Battle , and by His word spoken. Jesus said He would not suffer us to see judgement. All agree in the tribulation as being Gods wrath & judgment poured out on the earth. The Christian is not subjected to that judgement. so the same idea of a verse here or there in context as to:


One: God will divinely protect us through the seven year Trib.

Two: remove us from the seven year Trib.
Which one do you believe in? One or Two?
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
No rapture for Christians after tribulation. The GT is for unbelievers.

Ezekiel 30:3 KJV


For the day is near, even the day of the Lord is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.
The Amil position, no literal thousand years works the best for the thief in the night rule. Not some literal thousand year mystery of people disappearing only to reappear for some reason or other..

The last day performs a two fold work all in the twinkling of the eye. .

Death as to the letter of the law will be cast into the fiery judgement of God .The letter of the law will never to rise and condemn a entire creation. And simotaniiously the wake up call and the clothing of the incorruptible bodies for those who fell asleep in Christ and the saints that remain when he does come. .

Six times in the book of John alone we are given that law of the "last day" that will come to pass.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
 
Mar 28, 2016
15,954
1,528
113
I would think there is one rapture made up of two steps .The first step a new spirit and heart "born again". and those who have fallen asleep and those who remain alive when the end of time the last day comes they will receive the goal of their new faith a incorruptible body

Ezekiel 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

The goal of our new faith awaiting the wake up call as His bride, the church.

Hebrews 11:39-40 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

No one has received their new body.

The parable with Lazarus seems to point in that direction. That time the disciples were to help loosen him and unravel the grave clothes the temporal . The next time or end of the process that again began when Christ said it is finished we will wake up clothed with the righteousness of Christ the husband and not be found naked. The city will have no need for the sun and the moon. Its the end of time. The promised glory had come.

And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice,
Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.John 11:43-44

So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me! Job 14: 12-13

Set time = last day.

John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
where has it been debunked? where is the proof?
The early church writers were all over the board.
Look it up.

I am surprised anyone invokes it anymore.

It went down years ago alongside the margaret mcdonald farce.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
How do these verses prove two comings?
You CAN NOT have it both ways.

You can't have the church NOT continuing up to heaven at the rapture. The church is DEFINATELY in heaven during the gt. Jesus is emphatic about it.

My verses prove that hands down.
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
I have no reason to separate out the rapture from the day of Christ the way you do. What is your justification for it? You need to give me some justification for having multiple parousia's, multiple returns of Christ before interpreting the passage the way you do.

You can invent different categories to reinterpret a passage, but then how do you justify your invention of categories? What you are doing is called eisegesis, reading an idea into a passage.

Let us look at a larger section of the passage in question.


7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
II Thessalonians
Chapter 1

7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
12 That the name of our Lord Jesus Christ may be glorified in you, and ye in him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Chapter 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Notice 'that day' in chapter 1 verse 10. This is the day in which the church receives rest. It is the day when Jesus comes and executes judgment on them that believe not.

You should also consider that there were some people going around teaching that the resurrection of the dead had come already.



The translation I am using says, 'that day.' If you capitalize 'it', it becomes another word, that department that handles computer stuff. Frequent caps makes reading slower.

You are making distinctions and creating categories without Biblical justification to do so, and when doing so runs against both historical interpretation and the natural reading of the text.



It is easier to understand without wearing the pre-trib filter glasses.


THAT ^ is what happens at the MIDDLE of the trib years (and consistent with 2Th2:4... consistent with Rev13:5-7 context... and consistent with Daniel 9:27b [all of which are speaking of the MIDDLE of the trib];



And where is the Biblical justification for rapturing the church before all this?

Btw, all the slashes, brackes, footnotes, and lack of spaces along with caps make your stuff unnecessarily slow to read. The excessive caps, italics, and bolding actually may be intended for emphasis, but have the opposite effect. A one-off bolded world helps. A whole paragraph with it just looks like typed chicken scratch.
Once again,a postrib rapture stance ignoring the pretrib verses.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
1,526
113
The early church writers were all over the board.
Look it up.
look it up where. what. i agree the early church fathers held many differing beliefs. just like we do today no two persons agree lolz
 
Jul 23, 2018
12,199
2,775
113
Apparently there was one guy named Ephraim who believed in something along the lines of the pre-trib rapture. I know of no evidence that Darby had heard of him. As far as I know, Darby invented the dispensational pre-trib rapture, or re-invented pre-trib. I see no evidence that the apostles believed it or that any church taught it before Darby.

But I do not believe it came in through the group Irving was associated with or Margaret McDonald, either.
McDonald was postrib.

I bothered to read up on her.

Took the time to scour through all the postrib rapture arguments.

I know both doctrines.

I can defend pretrib rapture because i have the weight of scripture.

You guys feed on extra biblical nothing burgers.

Several early church writers believed in the pretrib rapture.

Your "church fathers" that were catholics burned heretics (as i would be labeled) and their WRITINGS.

You guys get those antiquated farces from other postrib adherents and don't bother to check things out.
 

Melach

Well-known member
Mar 28, 2019
2,057
1,526
113
Several early church writers believed in the pretrib rapture.

Your "church fathers" that were catholics burned heretics (as i would be labeled) and their WRITINGS.

You guys get those antiquated farces from other postrib adherents and don't bother to check things out.
prove this please. i wanna see it. i hope its not that out of context quote from irenaeus about when the church shall suddenly be caught up line.

if its any other line i will believe it and change my mind. i know didache is decidely posttrib as is all creeds