What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

DeighAnn · Dec 11, 2019

Faith, in the truth of the Word of God.

If you were told all electricity was to be cut for the months of Jan and Feb, would you wait until the electricity was cut then figure out what to do, or would you go get a generator or some propane to make it through right now?

The wisdom and knowledge of God is invaluable. He has given us the times and the seasons and the events that would happen BEFORE Satan arrives. Have you not read? Have you filled your lamp with oil and do you also have a reserve on hand to get you through the night, so that you will have no need to go out to buy and sell?

Oh wait, you have been taught YOU WON'T BE HERE, so you really have no need of those things, right? (bet that is what the other foolish virgins were taught too)

Only problem I see is THAT IF

that teaching is incorrect (AND IT IS INCORRECT) SO YOU DON'T PREPARE, you will find yourself in the exact same place as those foolish virgins who didn't PREPARE EITHER and will find yourself out buying and selling just like they did, and when THE BRIDEGROOM comes, you won't be a virgin of any sort anymore, will you? You will have jumped into bed with the rider of the first white horse, taken his mark, been seduced by all his lying and wonders and flatteries and been seduced to the point where when the true Christ returns you will already be with AN OTHERS child,. How totally shameful. Probably wish for mountains to fall on you to hide yourself from the shame of it all. You will realize you were the first one TAKEN. Just not taken to where all that false doctrine told you you would be taken to. You were taken in by lies and deception before Satan even arrived.

What do you think the "mystery of iniquity" has been doing all this time?? If you were satan and you were going after "the prize" the "professed believers in Christ" what would you make sure was being done? I'll tell you what I would do. I would make sure the world didn't think they had to know every word that proceeded out of the mouth of God especially because

IT WAS THE VERY FIRST TEACHING BY CHRIST, Our Lord and Saviour.

Matthew 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God

I WOULD FOLLOW IT UP WITH SOMETHING THAT WOULD ADDRESS THIS
Matthew 4:5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
Matthew 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
A DEVIOUS SOUL COULD GIVE THAT A TINY TWIST AND TURN THAT INTO "RAPTURE THEORY" OF SORTS DON'T YOU THINK?

HOW DOES SATAN SEDUCE AND DECEIVE AND BRING DEATH TO THE SOUL AND WHAT DOES HE REALLY WANT?
Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT SATAN IS GOING TO PROMISE TO EVERYONE, AND THAT IS WHAT HE WANTS. But you see, he is a liar. He can't give anything to anyone, he owns nothing. But he will make the world believe it is true.

When the 1/3 of the trees die, do you think anyone on earth will know it? It is a spiritual death. It is an apostasy, a turning from one way to another. They just don't know. Those who die don't even know it, wont know it until the True Christ is seen returning.

Ephesians - a church, no? What information is being given to the church? What are the Christians being told to do? Doesn't it look more like spiritual battle gear to you? And who is the gear being put on to face?

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might.

Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (death of the soul, not the flesh and blood)

Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.(that means doing it now)

Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness(the war in heaven has ended when Satan and his angels are cast to earth, so what would be the point of battle gear if you were going to a marriage?)

And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace

Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked

And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God
Those are the TRUE pre tribulation instructions we are given. Detailed, laid out in a doctrine that was taught then as it should be taught now. That is what doctrine from God looks like. It is a teaching simple to follow. Get ready Satan is coming and FAITH IN THE WORD will KEEP you safe from all evil. That same faith will KEEP you from the wrath of God, He will protect you just as if you were standing right in the middle of a fiery furnace, just like He did when the three children of God were in the hands of the king of Babylon all those years ago.

Never say you weren't given the TRUTH cause you have.

Me, on the other hand, I am prepared. I know the signs and the seasons. I learned the parable of the fig tree. I have put on the full gospel armor. I understand the deception coming our way. I can count the number of the beast. I know what to watch for. Where to watch for it. When to speak and what to say. When not to speak and what not to say. How to stay out of the beast system. What it is going to be like. What else God may require of me.

But for right now, as a watchman, I am told to warn others, so as not to have any blood on my hands.

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 11, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

One thing I forgot to add to this part ^,

In the context of His Second Coming to the earth (recall, the disciples' Q of Him in Matt24:3 BASED ON what He had ALREADY SPOKEN TO THEM about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 re: "the end [singular] of the age [singular]" when the angels will "REAP"), the angels will "gather ye FIRST the TARES" (and will "gather OUT all things that offend")--that is at the time-slot of His Second Coming to the earth;

BUT that ^ is in the EXACT OPPOSITE SEQUENCE from that of "our Rapture" event

[which (facts) I am convinced will "play into" the 2Th2:10-12 thing that Paul refers to there, speaking of what ppl will come to believe IN/WITHIN/DURING the trib yrs that FOLLOW "our Rapture"--"the LIE/pseudei/the FALSE/etc--[set in CONTRAST to what OTHERS will come to believe in/during that time-period, as shown in the wider context of both chpts, here]

[recall, I've stated that not all of "Christendom" is actually "saved"... so there will be plenty of ppl who "come in His name" but are not actually vitally-connected with Christ (i.e. they are not saved) who will be in existence in the trib yrs at its START]

Melach · Dec 11, 2019

DeighAnn said:

Me, on the other hand, I am prepared. I know the signs and the seasons. I learned the parable of the fig tree. I have put on the full gospel armor. I understand the deception coming our way. I can count the number of the beast. I know what to watch for. Where to watch for it. When to speak and what to say. When not to speak and what not to say. How to stay out of the beast system. What it is going to be like. What else God may require of me.

God sure is lucky to have you around.

TooFastTurtle · Dec 11, 2019

DeighAnn said:

This is exactly what I mean.

Do you think pre-tribbers are not putting on the shield of faith, fully armored? We are waiting for the Lord to return any moment. You guys are prepping and know Jesus cannot return today.

You are doing the usual post-trib fear mongering that says if we do not believe in it, we will be deceived by the antichrist. That is absolutely laughable. No pre-tribber would be deceived by the antichrist even if the Rapture did not occur pre-trib, we would know it was not the Rapture if we are still here, we would simply say Looks like we were wrong, now we have to deal with the tribulation time period, God help us.

pottersclay · Dec 11, 2019

What would be your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib rapture?

Looking at the story of lot. Lot being a type of the church. Abraham being type of the father.

Lot being a captive by his enemies, Abraham to the rescue. Lot being in a place that is to be judged, the angel said he must be removed first before judgement could take place.

Absolutely · Dec 11, 2019

Melach said:

Another way to look at it is the rapture is not,and can not be the second coming.

Absolutely · Dec 11, 2019

presidente said:

If you want to make a point, make it.

You seem to be assuming Revelation is written chronologically and that the harvest refers to the rapture?

Again, let us interpret Revelation through the lens of easier-to-interpret scriptures. Someone can say this in Revelation represents that, while another disagrees.

I would say the same to you.

bluto · Dec 11, 2019

TooFastTurtle said:

Sister DeigAnn is totally right when she brought up the ten virgins at Matthew 25:1-13. Her point is the same point I was going to bring up to your buddy Mr. Absolutelynot at his post #544. "The parable of the 10 virgins reinforces the call for readiness in the face of uncertain times of the "Second Coming," not some stage of a second rapture.

Read the verses yourself.

Matthew 25:1-13 New International Version (NIV)The Parable of the Ten Virgins
25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."

Our Lord wants us to be ready or be prepared at His coming whenever it occurs. Is Jesus being a "fear-monger" or is He telling us to be smart. In fact the other parables demonstrates the same theme, be ready. Do you really want Jesus Christ to say to at vs12, "But He answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you." And at vs13, "BE ON THE ALERT THEN, for you do not know the day or the hour." I also suggest you read the rest of Matthew 25 because Jesus is making the same point.

And as a side note, the 4 most lethal words in the Bible as far as I'm concerned can be found at Matthew 7:22,23, "Many will say to Me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Yor name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" vs23, "And then I will declare to them, "I NEVER KNEW YOU;" depart from Me."

So which group do you prefer to be in TooslowTurtle, and you Mr. Absolutelynot? PS: Most of the time people who are deceived by the antichrist or even by false teachers don't know they are being deceived unless someone shines the light on what their doing and believing so
God by way of God the Holy Spirit can prompt them to come to their senses. Now tell me the truth, does not this make sense?

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

TooFastTurtle · Dec 11, 2019

bluto said:

I appreciate the funny name changing. But the parable in Matthew 25:1-13 hardly fits a post-trib scheme, because I really do not need to be watching for the Lord's return anytime soon if post-trib Rapture is true, I really do not. Call me when the abomination of desolation occurs, that is when I start watching, before that it is just rumors and YouTube clickbait, once the abomination of desolation occurs and I see two witnesses, I can count 42 months from that point on, so much for watching and unexpected return, huh?

Afrikan · Dec 11, 2019

“I Know that You Do Not Want to See What is Coming Upon the Earth But, the Truth is Most of You Will.”

( https://holyspiritwind.net/2019/04/...-the-earth-but-the-truth-is-most-of-you-will/ )

By JEFF BYERLY

27th April 2019

My children, I know that you want to leave the place where you are at right now to be with Me forever. I long for that too, more than you know! But I tell you that the escape from your present dwelling place is not yet, though it is coming sooner than most think. I also know it is not soon enough for some of you but you must be patient. The “escape” for now, is being totally hidden in the secret place with Me. I WILL protect your spirit. Much testing comes now in the physical realm.
LISTEN TO ME! You must stop listening to those who are prophesying out of their fleshly minds! I know that you do not want to go through trials and tribulation but ALL OF YOU WILL. Some of you have already suffered great tribulation and have been refined but most will be refined quickly in the coming days.
Seek My face now fervently, cleanse yourself of all filthy acts of the flesh and be holy as I am holy. You will spare yourself much pain, testing and tribulation if you walk in My Spirit and do not walk in the flesh. My Spirit gives you the strength, you cannot do it on your own. Pick up your cross, die to the flesh daily and be refilled with My Spirit daily by spending time alone with Me in your personal Holy of Holies, that is in your heart.
When you are there with Me the things of the world become distant and I become close and you can feel Me. I dwell inside and surround those who have invited Me in and I desire for you to perceive it. My beloveds, I always tell you the truth no matter how painful and difficult it is to hear. I tell you these things so that you will be prepared. Get your house in order and draw very close to Me. Only those who do this will be able to stand in the evil days that come. Remember I will be with you through it all and I will not leave you ever. I will give you the strength to go through whatever comes before it happens and some I will take home. "The righteous perish and no man takes it to heart. Merciful men are taken away, while no one considers that the righteous is taken away from evil. He shall enter into peace. They shall rest in their beds, each one walking in his uprightness” (Isaiah 57:1-2). Remember not one of you have the exact same plan for your lives. You must seek Me personally for details. I will not put anyone through anything that they cannot bear, even though they think that they don’t have the strength. I give you strength in the very hour of need. TRUST IN ME ! HAVE FAITH THAT I DO WHAT I SAY !
I know that you do not want to see what is coming upon the earth but, the truth is MOST OF YOU WILL. I know that you do not want to see great earthquakes and the waves of the seas roaring and causing great destruction and taking many lives but most of you will. Those who have built their lives on My solid rock as their foundation will not be shaken and will be used to save many who are sinking.
I know that you do not want to see the Man-Made Fiery Kickoff Event but most of you will. I have said before “America The Event planned for your shores will be 10 times more destructive than anything you have ever seen before, for you have rejected Me and My ways and My laws.” At this present time what happens to America affects the whole earth but, America will fall in one hour and it will come quickly after this event and she will be brought lower than the “Third-World” countries of today. The "Son of Perdition" will come back to rule you once again but will leave and go on to take his place as the One-World Leader. He will leave just before America is offered up as a burnt offering on the altar of his father, Satan.
I know that you do not want to see the worldwide financial collapse but most of you will. My people will not fear for I will provide for them and you will be a great testimony to those around you if you trust Me and do not fear or take the mark that bears the name of the BEAST. If you remain on earth at this time call on Me to give you strength to stand and not bow before him or his image. I know that you do not want to see war but most of you will. It will be world-wide and it will be in your country, in your city and even in your neighborhoods but I protect the houses of My righteous ones. “The angel of the Lord encamps all around those who fear Him and delivers them.” (Psalm 34:7) Many will be taken to be with Me as well, do not be afraid.
I know that you do not want to see hunger and starvation of those around you but most of you will. I want you to feed your families and those I bring you. After you run out of earthly provisions I will give you of My never-ending supply from My storehouses in heaven if you will believe Me and fear not. I know that you do not want to see disease, pestilences and men collapsing right in front of you but most of you will. I want you to heal them. If they die I want you to pray that they are raised from the dead so that My glory is revealed and many will believe.
When My power is needed it is increased in My people. In the "First-World” countries My power is not needed but very shortly it will be life or death, day by day. I know that you do not want to see persecution but the time that is coming upon the earth quickly will be the most severe persecution any generation has ever seen. Laws are being set up even now that will make My name illegal and the worship of Me shall not be permitted. Most of you will see it and some of you will die because of your love for Me. If that is My plan for you, you will be honored and you will rule and reign with Me and given a crown. These days are being shortened even now so rejoice! They will not last as long as most men have taught. This was written of in days of old but now is the time that this is being revealed. REMEMBER, MY TIME IS IN EVENTS, NOT IN YOUR EARTHLY TIME. It will all happen quickly. STAY AWAY FROM THOSE WHO CONSTANTLY PREDICT DATES! THEY ARE NOT DOING THIS BY MY SPIRIT!

Afrikan · Dec 11, 2019

CONTINUED .......

After all these events, then the Sun will be Blackened and the Moon shall turn Blood Red, the Asteroid that has been sent by My hand will cause a Great Global Earthquake, Tsunamis Hundreds of Feet tall, Every Volcano will Explode and cause Fiery Cataclysms.
The Spiritual Veil will be taken away as the Sky recedes like a Scroll. Satan and the evil angels shall fall and My chosen ones will arise and shine in their glorified bodies and do My mighty harvest work.
This happens before I take all of My people to be be with Me and as the indignation and wrath are poured out upon those who have not repented and turned from their evil ways. My people will not experience My Wrath! (1 Thess. 1:10, 1 Thess. 5:9)
Then ALL of Our Wrath shall be poured out upon the unrighteous. Fallen Angels and Demons, Giants, Scorpions, will accompany all the great cataclysms of even greater earthquakes, asteroids and meteors, volcanoes, blood and fire and brimstone falling, tsunamis, floods and intense heat as well as cold and much more including a pole shift upon the earth.
Radiation from the Sun will blister men’s skin but it will not compare to being thrown into the Lake of Fire where there No Escape for All of Eternity.
This will be occurring during the short time that the One-World BEAST Government and Religion are allowed to reign upon the earth by the antichrist, the false prophet and the devil.
This is the greatest tribulation the earth will ever experience, until I destroy it and create a new heaven and new earth.
At this time all who repent still will be saved, unless they have sworn eternal allegiance to the beast by taking his mark, though the number will be few.
Most of those left on the earth at this time will curse My name and shake their fists at Me and they will remain that way for eternity. They will reside with their father Satan, who deceived the world, forever. “Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away. But take heed to yourselves, lest your hearts be weighed down with carousing, drunkenness, and cares of this life, and that Day come on you unexpectedly. For it will come as a snare on all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch therefore, and pray always that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will come to pass, and to stand before the Son of Man.”(Luke 21:32-36)
My beloved ones, there is nothing above Me. It is all under My control. The power to give life and death is by Me alone. The earth is My footstool, it is under My feet. Judgment and glory come down from My throne. You are all in the palm of my hand and nothing can take you from it but you can choose to leave it.
The wise man trusts in Me. Do you have My Spirit of Wisdom? I offer it to all who desire Me, My ways and My kingdom.
Ask Me for all that I have for you NOW and I will gladly give it to you!

Yahshua
Jesus

Ahwatukee · Dec 11, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

Good day TheDivineWatermark,

This is not for you, so much as it is for the one you were responding to.

The meaning of the phrase "the day of the Lord" can be found in all of the OT writings, as a day of

=======================================================================
"That day will be a day of wrath—a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness" - Zephaniah 1:1-4

The result of which will be:

"I will sweep away both man and beast; I will sweep away the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea—and the idols that cause the wicked to stumble. When I destroy all mankind on the face of the earth,” - Zephaniah 1:15

"I will punish the world for its evil, the wicked for their sins. I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty and will humble the pride of the ruthless. I will make people scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir."
===================================================================

The "day of the Lord" is also referred to as "the hour of trial," which is neither a day nor an hour in length, but is that last seven year period leading up to the return of the Lord to the earth to end the age and which will be accomplished through the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, as well as all the plagues that the two witnesses bring.

Ahwatukee · Dec 11, 2019

Afrikan said:

Christian's may experience wars, but neither me, nor any other true believer in Christ will see the events of the tribulation period. For we will have already been caught up to the Lord, because you brothers belong to the day, so that this day of wrath will not take you by surprise.

It's a shame that you don't recognize that the Lord took upon himself the wrath of God that we deserve, satisfying it completely. If you underlying principal, you wouldn't keep insisting that the church is going to experience God's wrath, when it has already be experienced by Jesus.

True believers are looking for the imminent appearing of our Lord to take us back to the Father's house, while you and others are looking to go through God's wrath first.

What you are doing is in line with what Hymeneus and Philetus were doing by telling believers that the resurrection had already taken place, so that the people were worried that they were not going to go through God's wrath. In the same way, you teaching people the same thing, that we are going to be on the earth during the day of the Lord.

The Lord rebuke for this!

Any new believers or young believers, pay no attention to Afrikan's teaching, as it is false! As the Lord promised, He is going to gather believers prior to God's time wrath, which will begin with the opening of the first seal. For though the Lord said that believers in Him would have trials and tribulation, we will experience God's time of tribulation which will be carried out via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments.

49 · Dec 11, 2019

TheDivineWatermark said:

My "therefore" refers back to the studies I've previously posted (both in this thread and in other threads); for example, I'd said:

"note also: Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon [1895] says, "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis"... so...

"-- apo stasis = "apo=away" & "stasis=a standing" [^ same word there ^] = "a standing away from [a previous standing]" or "DEPARTURE" (context determines just "WHAT KIND" of "DEPARTURE" is meant)…"

[and in past threads had provided...]

"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"

"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest
"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.

The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."

The article before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [I would say, "must precede the [7-yr] tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it)]. And we have answered our questions again. It might be added that the reason why Paul merely speaks of a pretribulation rather than a preseventieth week rapture is that he is addressing himself to the needs of the Thessalonian saints and is not explaining the particular place of the rapture in the prophetic program of God."

--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60

[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 (no spaces)]

[end quoting]

[cont'd in next post]

Just a thought here...as all Scripture is given by inspiration of God, would that not also apply to the translators/translations?

Afrikan · Dec 11, 2019

Ahwatukee said:

My perspective on this the wrath of GOD is the same as yours (as the Scriptures say: "WE ARE NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH"), no need for name-calling & rebukes, Brother.

Like the post i made referenced:

The Spiritual Veil will be taken away as the Sky recedes like a Scroll. Satan and the evil angels shall fall and My chosen ones will arise and shine in their glorified bodies and do My mighty harvest work.
This happens before I take all of My people to be be with Me and as the indignation and wrath are poured out upon those who have not repented and turned from their evil ways. My people will not experience My Wrath! (1 Thess. 1:10, 1 Thess. 5:9)

All this i have repeatedly mentioned, but you seem fixated on the Pre-Tribulation idea.

I ask you this then, if you've read through the Book of Revelations, then you know that the reason all the judgments unfold successively in time across the earth is to give people a chance to repent, with each Judgment worse than the former in order to humble the Lost to FULL REPENTANCE before JESUS.

How else will all those who are 'BROKEN' come to Hear about and find comfort in JESUS amid all the death and destruction, if WE Committed Disciples of Christ are ALL IN HEAVEN ??

Is that how you believe OUR GOD works ??

If you've seen my profile then you know that i only got serious in my walk with the Lord little more than 1 year ago (June 2018) when i had a moment of personal crisis and HE answered my cries when i was 'BROKEN' and i Repented of my wicked ways and turned my life around by HIS Strength.

Most of our Brethren here are lucky to have been in Close Fellowship with Our Lord much earlier than I (in fact i believe @Ahwatukee, you mentioned in an earlier post, that you came to CHRIST when you were young).

Imagine for a moment then, how merciful GOD must be that, the whole time you were Worshiping, Praising and being a Committed disciple of Jesus, I WAS LIVING IN SIN AND ENJOYING IT.

When i consider it now, i like to think of it like, "HE STOPPED THE BUS FOR ME TO GET ON, JUST BEFORE I COULD HAVE MISSED IT."

This is why i keep reminding you about ALL THE BILLIONS OF LIVES WHO MIGHT BE LOST DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION - JUST LIKE I COULD HAVE BEEN.

Up to and including the moment when the 2 witnesses are killed, GOD will still give people MULTIPLE CHANCES TO REPENT - just like HE kept calling out to me for years and years, before i finally accepted HIS Gift of Salvation.

Contrary to what you may believe about me and what i post here, I FEAR GOD more than you know and everyday i'm grateful to be a disciple of JESUS and though i'm still growing in Faith, HE is still continuing the GOOD WORK HE BEGAN IN ME.

If you truly have the heart of JESUS CHRIST who called you out of the Darkness of Sin, then you will realize the Book of Revelations is not an extended Hollywood Movie we are watching from Heaven - these are real and deadly events that will impact EVERYONE AND EVERYTHING AROUND YOU NO MATTER WHERE YOU ARE ON THIS EARTH. Real people - MEN, WOMEN, CHILDREN, ALL RELIGIONS, YOUNG, OLD, SICK, HEALTHY, POOR, RICH - including OUR OWN FAMILIES !!!!

Knowing this, who else would be better placed, THAN WE, HIS LIGHTS OF THE WORLD to show the Love of JESUS to all the MUSLIMS, HINDUS, CATHOLICS, LGBTQ+ Persons and even ATHEISTS whose REALITIES will be suddenly shattered by the destruction around them.

From the Scriptures you know that, GOD IS LOVE itself and that HE IS NOT A RESPECTER OF PERSONS. HE Loves that MUSLIM Girl in Rural PAKISTAN and the HINDU Boy in INDIA just as much as HE Loves Me and You; I believe HE will send US to these in the "VALLEY OF DECISION" (before, HE pours out HIS WRATH on the Unrighteous) to be HIS LIGHTS when the time comes.

Otherwise, why Bother with the Trumpet and Bowl Judgments at all, IF NOT TO HUMBLE PEOPLE TO REPENTANCE ??

HE could just destroy ALL THE EARTH in a Massive FIRESTRIKE FROM HEAVEN like HE did with SODOM and GOMORRAH and be done with it !!

Hevosmies · Dec 11, 2019

I wanna ask all of y'all who believe in the pre trib rapture: Do yall believe in TWO peoples of God or ONE? I believe in ONE and because of that im always in trouble with the dispies because i just usually dont buy the 'thats talking to Israel' idea. Not only that when I hear 'according to jewish custom' or 'in jewish culture' I ALREADY prepare myself for OKAY THATS IT, some FALSE DOCTRINE is coming down the pipeline.

I ask that because if there is a pre tribber here who believes in ONE people of God, which is ALL PEOPLE OF FAITH Jews and Gentiles from creation to uncreation, does that do any damage to the pre trib teaching that the church kinda gets out of the way for Daniel's 70th week and all that?

TheDivineWatermark · Dec 11, 2019

49 said:

I wonder if you saw my post I'd put (I think, in another thread)...

[quoting Thomas Ice, re: the word in question in 2Th2:3]

"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy”. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism.

"It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.[11] J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.[13]"

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The 'Departure' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

[end quoting]

So, in the 400s "discessio" meaning "departure"...

And again, Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1895) "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" ('apo stasis - a standing away from [a previous standing]' or, 'DEPARTURE').

There are other passages talking about "[some shall] depart FROM THE FAITH"... (using a related word, verb form here), but the necessity of adding the phrase "FROM THE FAITH" shows us that this idea ['from the faith'] is not inherently A PART of the word itself.

So then we must look to the context to help us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant; and since the definite article ('the') is not otherwise necessary with this word, it draws our att'n to what its purpose is HERE; and that's what the one Greek scholar stated is the purpose of the definite article, and one of those is that it points BACK to something ALREADY MENTIONED in the text (and/or already-known to the recipients); and the NOUN-EVENT of VERSE 1 fits that perfectly.

Before "the Day of the Lord" can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, "THE DEPARTURE" must take place "*FIRST*" (ONE THING is said to be *FIRST*)... which SEQUENCE agrees with every other related passage, including the first epistle to them.

Why not accept this very straightforward reading of this text, is my question.

GaryA · Dec 12, 2019

Hevosmies said:

I do...

Hevosmies · Dec 12, 2019

GaryA said:

Can you be so KIND to me broski and tell me? Im dying to know! SPILL THE BEANS to me please

Absolutely · Dec 12, 2019

BLUTO QUOTE "reinforces the call for readiness in the face of uncertain times of the "Second Coming," not some stage of a second rapture."

YEP all it is is the rapture. Nothing needs be added.

What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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