What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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presidente

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May 29, 2013
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I Thess.4:16-17 = The gathering of the entire church, dead and living, being caught up to meet the Lord in the air

Matt.24:31 = Angels gathering the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire tribulation period

Your error is that you and others pigeonhole the word "gathering" so that it is referring to the same event, which it is not.

It is the same with the "last trumpet" of I Cor.15:52 vs the "loud trumpet" of Matt.24:31. They are two different types of trumpets which take place at different times. The former is to call up the church, where the latter is a signal for the angels to go and gather the living saints throughout the entire world.
Give us a Biblical reason to think there are multiple gatherings. Show pretrib in the Bible.
 

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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I do not need to insert a rapture between Matthew 24:15-31 because that is not the topic of discussion.

The Rapture and its specific mechanics about how we are translated in a moment in the twinkling of an eye were not yet revealed at that time. It was a mystery revealed to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where it is spoken of. Just like the mystery of Jew and Gentile being One in Christ.

The Bible has a progressive revelation to it, you need to stop getting stuck at Matthew 24 and read the other verses as well ;) Why the attitude?
Oh boy, here we go again. I think it would be better if you kept your name, "TooFastTurtle" because it's obvious as least to me you are coming to false conclusions to fast. Please, allow me to explain what I mean.

What person would you go to at Matthew chapter 24 that knows what He is talking about? Would it not be Jesus Christ Himself? So I'm going to say it again, three disciples ask Jesus Christ, "and what will be the SIGN of Your coming, and the end of the age/world.

In this post of yours youi "discounted" out of hand that the rapture, (meaning your rapture position) is not between Matthew 25:15-28. You then stated very clearly I might add the specific mechanics will happen is a twinkling of an eye and were not yet revealed at that time? Really!

You then gave me 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where it is spoken of. Here is where you come to conclusions too fast because you "DO NOT READ THE CONTEXT" like your suppose to do. At 1 Corinthians 15:20 it says, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the "FIRST FRUITS" of those who are asleep/dead."

Jesus is the first fruits rasised from the dead in a "permanent" way thereby defeating death or the sting of death. Now, going to vs23, "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING. vs24, THEN THE END, (WHEN?) when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He abolished all rule and all authority and power. vs25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. vs26, "The last enemy that will be abolished is death."

So, where is your "rapture" in these verses TFT? In short, there is no end (vs24) if the pretrib view is correct. And your telling me that I'm stuck? Btw, I don't have an attitude and I don't rattle boy.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

TooFastTurtle

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Apr 10, 2019
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Oh boy, here we go again. I think it would be better if you kept your name, "TooFastTurtle" because it's obvious as least to me you are coming to false conclusions to fast. Please, allow me to explain what I mean.

What person would you go to at Matthew chapter 24 that knows what He is talking about? Would it not be Jesus Christ Himself? So I'm going to say it again, three disciples ask Jesus Christ, "and what will be the SIGN of Your coming, and the end of the age/world.

In this post of yours youi "discounted" out of hand that the rapture, (meaning your rapture position) is not between Matthew 25:15-28. You then stated very clearly I might add the specific mechanics will happen is a twinkling of an eye and were not yet revealed at that time? Really!

You then gave me 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where it is spoken of. Here is where you come to conclusions too fast because you "DO NOT READ THE CONTEXT" like your suppose to do. At 1 Corinthians 15:20 it says, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the "FIRST FRUITS" of those who are asleep/dead."

Jesus is the first fruits rasised from the dead in a "permanent" way thereby defeating death or the sting of death. Now, going to vs23, "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING. vs24, THEN THE END, (WHEN?) when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He abolished all rule and all authority and power. vs25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. vs26, "The last enemy that will be abolished is death."

So, where is your "rapture" in these verses TFT? In short, there is no end (vs24) if the pretrib view is correct. And your telling me that I'm stuck? Btw, I don't have an attitude and I don't rattle boy.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You do have an attitude, a very bad one and immature one, mocking people, talking down to them, twisting their names, personal insults not sticking to the topic solely, calling me "boy" from behind your computer screen etc. It is ironic that you called me boy, because that is exactly how you are behaving now. I will be waiting for an apology and if one is not delivered I will just not engage with you anymore. Think of the readers who are not registered, would they see Christ's heart in your way of approaching this?

Where is the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:23 you say? It is those who are Christ's at His coming, the main harvest, then comes the end, the gleanings.

You tried to make an argument that there are no more resurrections after the Rapture that happens at Jesus' coming, even if you say it is the Second Coming, it still is not true, because there will be saved people during the millennium that will be resurrected after the millennium, and there will also be the lost eventually resurrected.
 

49

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Jun 28, 2015
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I wonder if you saw my post I'd put (I think, in another thread)...

[quoting Thomas Ice, re: the word in question in 2Th2:3]

"Translation History

"The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either “departure” or “departing.” They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).[7] This supports the notion that the word truly means “departure.” In fact, Jerome’s Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.D. 400 renders apostasia with the “word discessio, meaning ‘departure.’”[8] Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of “departure”?

"Most scholars say that no one knows the reason for the translation shift. However, a plausible theory has been put forth by Martin Butalla in his Master of Theology thesis produced at Dallas Theology Seminary in 1998.[9] It appears that the Catholic translation into English from Jerome’s Latin Vulgate known as the Rheims Bible (1576) was the first to break the translation trend. “Apostasia was revised from ‘the departure’ to ‘the Protestant Revolt,’” explains Butalla. “Revolution is the terminology still in use today when Catholicism teaches the history of the Protestant Reformation. Under this guise, apostasia would refer to a departure of Protestants from the Catholic Church.”[10] The Catholic translators appear eager to engage in polemics against the Reformation by even allowing it to impact Bible translation. By 1611, when then original version of the King James Bible came out, the translators changed the English translation tradition from “departure” to “falling away,” which implied “apostasy.” Such a change was a theological response to the Catholic notion that the Reformation was a revolt against the true church; instead, Protestants saw Catholic beliefs as “the falling away” or “the great apostasy”. This would mean that the shift in translation was not based upon research of the meaning of the original language but as a theological polemic against the false teachings of Romanism.

"It is well established that E. Schuyler English is thought to be the first pretribulationist to propose that “the departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was a physical departure and thus a reference to the pre-trib rapture. However, history records that at least a couple of men thought of this idea before English’s series of article in 1950.[11] J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star.[13]"

--Dr Thomas Ice, "The 'Departure' in 2 Thessalonians 2:3", https://www.pre-trib.org/articles/all-articles/message/the-departure-in-2-thessalonians-2-3/read

[end quoting]


So, in the 400s "discessio" meaning "departure"...

And again, Liddell and Scott's Greek-English Lexicon (1895) "apostasia - LATER FORM FOR apostasis" ('apo stasis - a standing away from [a previous standing]' or, 'DEPARTURE').

There are other passages talking about "[some shall] depart FROM THE FAITH"... (using a related word, verb form here), but the necessity of adding the phrase "FROM THE FAITH" shows us that this idea ['from the faith'] is not inherently A PART of the word itself.

So then we must look to the context to help us determine just "WHAT KIND" of "departure" is meant; and since the definite article ('the') is not otherwise necessary with this word, it draws our att'n to what its purpose is HERE; and that's what the one Greek scholar stated is the purpose of the definite article, and one of those is that it points BACK to something ALREADY MENTIONED in the text (and/or already-known to the recipients); and the NOUN-EVENT of VERSE 1 fits that perfectly.

Before "the Day of the Lord" can "BE PRESENT" to unfold upon the earth, "THE DEPARTURE" must take place "*FIRST*" (ONE THING is said to be *FIRST*)... which SEQUENCE agrees with every other related passage, including the first epistle to them.

Why not accept this very straightforward reading of this text, is my question. :geek:

;)
Thank you for your reply.

My reason for posting that is what seems to happen quite often in this forum: 'this Bible version, or that Bible version, is incorrect, and the translators erred', etc. As God is not the author of confusion, just find it hard to imagine that the translators were not under inspiration as well. Just a thought.

Thank you again.
 

bluto

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Aug 4, 2016
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You do have an attitude, a very bad one and immature one, mocking people, talking down to them, twisting their names, personal insults not sticking to the topic solely, calling me "boy" from behind your computer screen etc. It is ironic that you called me boy, because that is exactly how you are behaving now. I will be waiting for an apology and if one is not delivered I will just not engage with you anymore. Think of the readers who are not registered, would they see Christ's heart in your way of approaching this?

Where is the Rapture in 1 Corinthians 15:23 you say? It is those who are Christ's at His coming, the main harvest, then comes the end, the gleanings.

You tried to make an argument that there are no more resurrections after the Rapture that happens at Jesus' coming, even if you say it is the Second Coming, it still is not true, because there will be saved people during the millennium that will be resurrected after the millennium, and there will also be the lost eventually resurrected.
Now you see, who's the one with the attitude? This is usually what happens when people are confronted with Biblical evidence staring them right in the face and the only thing they can do is resort to "ad hominem's" which means attacking a person's character instead of dealing with the issue at hand.

And btw, the following are your words, "I appreciate the name changing." My goodness, if this sets you off what are you going to do in the tribulation? Do you know why I'm here? It is to engage theological innovators like yourself and, by challenging your claims, get you to expose the errors of your assumptions, inferences and conclusions for any interested parties including "lurkers" to see for themselves. And I did not say "boy" in a derogatory way of disrespect, I was referring to an age difference, that's all. So you do what you want to do. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

Ahwatukee

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Mar 12, 2015
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Give us a Biblical reason to think there are multiple gatherings. Show pretrib in the Bible.
I just did in the post that you responded to, which is the gathering of the church described in John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:16-17.

The other gathering is found in Matt.24:30-31 when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time, He sends His angels out to gather those who will have made it alive through the entire tribulation period.

The Lord's promise to gather His church: (John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.4:16-17)

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place where I am going.”

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


The Lord's return to the earth to end the age: (Matt.24:31-30, Rev.1:7, 19:11-21)

"Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth c will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other."

I Thessalonians 4:16-18 = Jesus calls up the dead and living believers to meet Him in the air, where He then takes the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us. Jesus does not return to the earth at this event.

Matthew 24:30-31 = Jesus descends from heaven to the earth and the church with Him to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom.

Church is gathered | -------------------------------------Seven Years of God's wrath -------------------------------| Jesus returns to the earth
=================| ----------------S E A L S ----------------T R U M P E T S -----------------B O W L S -----------| Satan cast into the Abyss


Since it is clear that believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then the Lord will keep His promise to come and take us back to the Father's house prior to said wrath. Because Jesus already satisfied God's wrath on behalf of every believer, then we cannot and will not go through it.
 

CS1

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What would be your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib rapture?

My Church teaches it, all the good teachers I know teach it and everyone and their momma believes in it, but its largely foreign in Church history (or things are snipped outta context by pre-tribbers to try to prove it, which I will forgive cause aint nobody got time to read all the church fathers' and many of them are in error too).

I cant see it as being something like: "Yo heres a verse..." it seems to be more like the kind of doctrine that requires some seeds planted and questions asked and saying thats to a different group and making charts showing "differences" between rapture verses and second coming verses. They can be differences OR its just the same event and its trouble to unbelievers and rest to believers like in 2 thessalonians 1:7-9. It depends on how you look at it. BEFORE anyone says it, YES I know the TRINITY is kind of like that too! Which is SAD to me, wish we had a clear ONE VERSE for the trinity, but WHO AM I to complain?

Some proofs I have heard, which all are good imo:

-Jesus wont put His body through wrath AGAIN
-People are RETURNING from heaven with Jesus in Rev 19, so they need to be up there before that return
-The bridegroom parable from Matthew 25
-John 14:1-3 literally cant be fulfilled in historical premillennialism, only in amill,postmill and dispensational premillennialism (correct me if im wrong)


I guess the point of this thread is: IF someone asked you: "Hey, show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible?" WHERE would you take them? What would be your GO-TO verse(s)?
you can wait until it happens and have your proof :)
 

Absolutely

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How are they saved believers if Jesus doesn't know them? thats the MILLION DOLLAR QUESTION!
They are described VIVIDLY as saved.
They had light =Jesus
They were virgins = pure,undefiled,innocent,separated (only one possibility...they were saved and belonged to Jesus.
They were in the assembly ,or company of the wise virgins or Christians.
They had oil= the Holy Spirit.
And the biggie.....they were waiting for Jesus.
So we KNOW they are believers

So,like you say,What is going on with "I know you not"?

The answer is in "intimacy"
Know=intimacy.
Mat 1
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.

Luke 1:34

Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man?
 

Absolutely

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When you compare Matthew 24:30-31 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 and 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 both have the coming, both got a gathering and we got the timing of it, at the second coming.

I believe thats how people in the FIRST CENTURY read it, if you was a believer and got yourself a letter from Paul and compared it to Matthew's record NO WAY JOSÉ would you think its two SEPARATE comings. This idea of "Oh thats to the jews" is a RECENT development and im not a fan of it.
note the shift to "before the trib" in the last part of mat 24;
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.


36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.


37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,


39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.


42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.


44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?


46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.


48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;


50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,


51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 

Absolutely

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The "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" (or even the 5) are NOT who He is coming to MARRY. They "go in with [G3326] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" which is the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth [see Lk12:36-37,38,40 also, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." THEN the meal!]
Not according to the parable.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

Vivid picture of the bride gathered.....to the marriage...IN HEAVEN......THE RAPTURE
 

Melach

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Give us a Biblical reason to think there are multiple gatherings. Show pretrib in the Bible.
its like answer to a problem no on asked the pre-trib rapture
 

Absolutely

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I agree that jews will get converted during the latter times. Difference is: I see them as JOINING the church. That one group of people God has
yes....one new man in JESUS
 

Absolutely

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Give us a Biblical reason to think there are multiple gatherings. Show pretrib in the Bible.
Mat 24
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood.......
39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come

"before the flood"
"Then"
"one shall be taken, and the other left"
.
"Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come"
 

Absolutely

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Oh boy, here we go again. I think it would be better if you kept your name, "TooFastTurtle" because it's obvious as least to me you are coming to false conclusions to fast. Please, allow me to explain what I mean.

What person would you go to at Matthew chapter 24 that knows what He is talking about? Would it not be Jesus Christ Himself? So I'm going to say it again, three disciples ask Jesus Christ, "and what will be the SIGN of Your coming, and the end of the age/world.

In this post of yours youi "discounted" out of hand that the rapture, (meaning your rapture position) is not between Matthew 25:15-28. You then stated very clearly I might add the specific mechanics will happen is a twinkling of an eye and were not yet revealed at that time? Really!

You then gave me 1 Corinthians 15:51-52 where it is spoken of. Here is where you come to conclusions too fast because you "DO NOT READ THE CONTEXT" like your suppose to do. At 1 Corinthians 15:20 it says, "But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the "FIRST FRUITS" of those who are asleep/dead."

Jesus is the first fruits rasised from the dead in a "permanent" way thereby defeating death or the sting of death. Now, going to vs23, "But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's AT HIS COMING. vs24, THEN THE END, (WHEN?) when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He abolished all rule and all authority and power. vs25, For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. vs26, "The last enemy that will be abolished is death."

So, where is your "rapture" in these verses TFT? In short, there is no end (vs24) if the pretrib view is correct. And your telling me that I'm stuck? Btw, I don't have an attitude and I don't rattle boy.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
There is no resurrection at the 2nd coming after the gt.

Rev 14 has two harvest gatherings of Gods people BEFORE the second coming.
The living DO NOT precede the dead.
 

GaryA

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Can you be so KIND to me broski and tell me? Im dying to know! SPILL THE BEANS to me please
I will try to post something later on sometime - when I have the time...

In the meanwhile, consider this:

There is no U-turn.
 

GaryA

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At the same time, it is crystal clear that at the Second Coming of Christ, Christ comes WITH His saints and angels from Heaven. Now how could He possibly bring the saints from Heaven . . .
Christ comes [from Heaven] with the SOULS of the saints - which are then "reunited" with their bodies at the time of the rapture.

Christ does not come from Heaven with already-raptured saints. (having their bodies)
 

Nehemiah6

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Christ comes [from Heaven] with the SOULS of the saints - which are then "reunited" with their bodies at the time of the rapture. Christ does not come from Heaven with already-raptured saints. (having their bodies)
That is incorrect. Yes at the Resurrection/Rapture Christ comes with the souls and spirits of the saints who have passed on, and they receive glorified bodies and return to Heaven. At the same time those who are alive at that time are transformed, and then also translated to Heaven (also in glorified bodies).

But to the assert as you have done that Christ does NOT come from Heaven with the already raptured saints is to contradict Scripture. HE is accompanied by His saints and angels at His second coming, and they are referred to as "armies".

REVELATION 19: THE MARRIAGE OF THE LAMB WITH ALL THE SAINTS PRESENT
9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST WITH HIS SAINTS AND ANGELS
11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a name written, that no man knew, but He Himself.
13 And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His name is called The Word of God.


THE ARMIES IN HEAVEN ARE THE SAINTS AND ANGELS
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

THE CLOUDS ARE A METAPHOR FOR THE SHINING SAINTS AND ANGELS
Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him, and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so, Amen.
(Rev 1:7)

CHRIST COMES WITH MILLIONS OF SAINTS TO JUDGE HIS ENEMIES AND THE WICKED
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of His saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against Him.
(Jude 1:14,15)

2 THESSALONIANS 1: CHRIST COMES WITH HIS MIGHTY ANGELS AND GLORIFIED SAINTS
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,

8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power;
10 When He shall come to be glorified in His saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
 

GaryA

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Evidently you failed to notice (1) that the Lord meets the saints in the air and (2) that all this happens in the twinkling of an eye (in a split second).

Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible [THE RESURRECTION], and we shall be changed [THE RAPTURE]. (1 Cor 15:51,52)

This in itself PROVES that the Resurrection/Rapture has absolutely nothing to do with the Second Coming. But Revelation 19 makes it perfectly clear that Christ will come WITH His saints and angels from Heaven for the battle of Armageddon, following which He will establish His Millennial Kingdom on earth. And all that does not happen within seconds. So how could He possibly come from Heaven with His saints if He had not taken them to Heaven previously at the Rapture (which occurred within less than a second)?

And to mockingly speak of U-turns shows a lack of understanding of the whole subject.
It is the "change" - and only the "change" - that happens "in the twinkling of an eye" - not the entire Resurrection/Rapture event.