What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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Elementary my dear Watson.
1. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are described in Matthew 24, but nary a word about the Rapture. This was several days before the Passover and the Last Supper.
2. It was at the Last Supper that John records the words of Christ extensively (unlike the other Gospels). It it here that Christ first introduces the doctrine of the Rapture. And His first words are "Let not your heart be troubled". (which means that "I am not speaking about any tribulation")
3. Then the Lord says that He is going to Heaven ("my Father's house") to prepare a place for His own. But He does not stop there. He says "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF". So now you must turn to 1 Thessalonians 4 and see exactly what that means ( once again with no mention of any tribulation). All the apostolic churches expected the imminent return of Christ (although as we know it was postponed and is yet future).
4. In Matthew 24 Christ sends His angels far and wide to gather His elect AFTER His Second Coming WITH His saints and angels ("the clouds"). So how could He bring His saints with Him unless they were already in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation? As we know, all the Tribulation saints are beheaded for refusing the take the Mark of the Beast.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)
This means that the Rapture must be before the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist).
1. The Tribulation and Great Tribulation are described in Matthew 24, but nary a word about the Rapture. This was several days before the Passover and the Last Supper.
2. It was at the Last Supper that John records the words of Christ extensively (unlike the other Gospels). It it here that Christ first introduces the doctrine of the Rapture. And His first words are "Let not your heart be troubled". (which means that "I am not speaking about any tribulation")
3. Then the Lord says that He is going to Heaven ("my Father's house") to prepare a place for His own. But He does not stop there. He says "I WILL COME AGAIN AND RECEIVE YOU UNTO MYSELF". So now you must turn to 1 Thessalonians 4 and see exactly what that means ( once again with no mention of any tribulation). All the apostolic churches expected the imminent return of Christ (although as we know it was postponed and is yet future).
4. In Matthew 24 Christ sends His angels far and wide to gather His elect AFTER His Second Coming WITH His saints and angels ("the clouds"). So how could He bring His saints with Him unless they were already in Heaven BEFORE the Tribulation? As we know, all the Tribulation saints are beheaded for refusing the take the Mark of the Beast.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Rev 20:4)
This means that the Rapture must be before the Tribulation (which coincides with the reign of the Antichrist).
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I have a question for you...
To my knowledge, I don't think there is a pre-tribber anywhere that doesn't believe that the passage you quote above is specifically referring to an 'eternal' home with Christ.
So - why do you insist on believing that you will only live in "your mansion" for seven years?
The Bible tells us that we will reign with Christ for 1000 years on earth - followed by eternity with Christ after the Judgment and the New Heaven and Earth are created.
No one (human) will live in [the third] heaven for eternity...
I suggest to you that "your mansion" that is being prepared for you is in the New Jerusalem city.
It may be in [the third] heaven now - but, it's going to be on the New Earth for eternity.
"Food for thought..."
To my knowledge, I don't think there is a pre-tribber anywhere that doesn't believe that the passage you quote above is specifically referring to an 'eternal' home with Christ.
So - why do you insist on believing that you will only live in "your mansion" for seven years?
The Bible tells us that we will reign with Christ for 1000 years on earth - followed by eternity with Christ after the Judgment and the New Heaven and Earth are created.
No one (human) will live in [the third] heaven for eternity...
I suggest to you that "your mansion" that is being prepared for you is in the New Jerusalem city.
It may be in [the third] heaven now - but, it's going to be on the New Earth for eternity.
"Food for thought..."
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Don't pre-tribbers believe that at the parousia (one of them, the extra one pre-tribbers posit), that Jesus shows up in the sky and then goes back to heaven? The Bible does teach that we will rise and return with Christ. Where does it say that after Christ ascends, He will start to descend and then turn back? You don't have Biblical justification for your U-Turn.
Also, consider this
Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
(NKJV)
Pre-trib has heaven receiving Him, then Him leaving, then returning. How is that in line with Acts 3:21?
If you want us to believe in multiple second comings, multiple recievings of Christ in heaven, Christ starting to descend and then returning again, you need some scripture to back that up. Can anyone show me a passage where it says that the church will be raptured up before Jesus come back or that Jesus comes back multiple times?
Also, consider this
Acts 3:21
whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began.
(NKJV)
Pre-trib has heaven receiving Him, then Him leaving, then returning. How is that in line with Acts 3:21?
If you want us to believe in multiple second comings, multiple recievings of Christ in heaven, Christ starting to descend and then returning again, you need some scripture to back that up. Can anyone show me a passage where it says that the church will be raptured up before Jesus come back or that Jesus comes back multiple times?
It proves the following:
1). That after His resurrection and ascension, Jesus went to the Father's house
2). He went there (the Father's house) to prepare places for believers in the church
3). He's coming back again to get both the dead and living believers, where they will be taken back to those places that He prepared for us in the Father's house.
This scripture is not even worth debating about because it is so clear in its meaning.
Jesus going to the Father's house is supported by the fact that the apostles witnessed Jesus being taken up into heaven. And which is further supported by the fact that scripture states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where He makes intercession for all believers. Therefore, the places that He went to prepare for us are in the Father's house which is in heaven. I Thess.4:13-18 is the detailed account of the Lord's promise of John 14:1-3. In addition to all of this, since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then Jesus' promise of coming to get believers must take place prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal.
Nothing that you have said above has anything to do with Jesus ascending into heaven, preparing places for all believers and returning to get us. Stay within the context.
[quote So, in spite of all this the question that Wall ask you still remains, "Are there two raptures or not?"[/quote]
If by "Rapture" you mean being "caught up," both those who are resurrected and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, in their immortal and glorified bodies. There are phases to the first resurrection:
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing
* The male child/144,000
* The two witnesses
* The great tribulation saints
Each group above falls under the banner of the first resurrection. The church and the male child will be two groups who will be living, changed and caught up. The first resurrection, is in direct opposition to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead, which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom. The second death has power over those who take part in that resurrection.
The answer to that is what I have telling you all along. Jesus took upon himself the wrath of God that every believer deserves because of our sins, satisfying it completely. Everything that God does is legal process. That said, since God's wrath has been completely satisfied for believers, then believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath and which is why believers must be removed from the earth prior to God's wrath. As I have continued to make known to you and others, understanding the severity and magnitude of the seals, trumpets and bowls is paramount to understanding why the church cannot be exposed to the plagues of that time period.
1). That after His resurrection and ascension, Jesus went to the Father's house
2). He went there (the Father's house) to prepare places for believers in the church
3). He's coming back again to get both the dead and living believers, where they will be taken back to those places that He prepared for us in the Father's house.
This scripture is not even worth debating about because it is so clear in its meaning.
Jesus going to the Father's house is supported by the fact that the apostles witnessed Jesus being taken up into heaven. And which is further supported by the fact that scripture states that Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father where He makes intercession for all believers. Therefore, the places that He went to prepare for us are in the Father's house which is in heaven. I Thess.4:13-18 is the detailed account of the Lord's promise of John 14:1-3. In addition to all of this, since believers are not appointed to suffer God's wrath, then Jesus' promise of coming to get believers must take place prior to the beginning of God's wrath, which is initiated by the opening of the first seal.
Nothing that you have said above has anything to do with Jesus ascending into heaven, preparing places for all believers and returning to get us. Stay within the context.
[quote So, in spite of all this the question that Wall ask you still remains, "Are there two raptures or not?"[/quote]
If by "Rapture" you mean being "caught up," both those who are resurrected and the living will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air, in their immortal and glorified bodies. There are phases to the first resurrection:
* Jesus the first fruits
* The church at His appearing
* The male child/144,000
* The two witnesses
* The great tribulation saints
Each group above falls under the banner of the first resurrection. The church and the male child will be two groups who will be living, changed and caught up. The first resurrection, is in direct opposition to the resurrection of the unrighteous dead, which takes place at the end of the millennial kingdom. The second death has power over those who take part in that resurrection.
I would also ask, "How does Jesus saying He is going to prepare a place" translate in a pretrib rapture? I mean I read your explanation that in heaven or in My Fathers house are many mansions how does that prove when the second coming takes place? In short, it does not wash. 
Sorry, that is not what I meant. When you compare the Scriptures regarding the Resurrection/Rapture with those regarding the Second Coming, you will note that for the Rapture Christ comes personally for His saints (without involving angels, apart from the announcement by the archangel -- "the voice of the archangel"), But in Matthew 24 He simply sends forth His angels to gather together the elect (the believing remnant of Israel).
And the archangel is not mentioned in Matthew 24. It would also seem that it is the archangel (presumably Michael) who blows that trumpet called *the trump of God* or *the last trump* which summons the saints to Heaven. There are too many who confuse this trumpet with the 7th trumpet of the seven trumpet judgments. But it should be obvious that there can be no connection between salvation (the Rapture) and damnation (the Great Tribulation). Once we see the Resurrection/Rapture as the culmination of salvation, we do not connect it with God's wrath or Satan's wrath.
And the archangel is not mentioned in Matthew 24. It would also seem that it is the archangel (presumably Michael) who blows that trumpet called *the trump of God* or *the last trump* which summons the saints to Heaven. There are too many who confuse this trumpet with the 7th trumpet of the seven trumpet judgments. But it should be obvious that there can be no connection between salvation (the Rapture) and damnation (the Great Tribulation). Once we see the Resurrection/Rapture as the culmination of salvation, we do not connect it with God's wrath or Satan's wrath.
You need to be watching for the signs. Remember the olive tree comment in Matthew 24?
Any of us could die at any time. Hebrews says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment. Not caring until the man of sin is revealed would be rather foolish.
Pre-trib doctrine could lull people into not paying attention to the signs of the times. Just think of all the people who will say, "A preacher told me that I was saved because I repeated a prayer after him, and that I would be raptured. So if God is real, then I am saved, and I will go up in the rapture. So this guy can't be the AntiChrist, because I would already have been raptured."
Any of us could die at any time. Hebrews says that it is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgment. Not caring until the man of sin is revealed would be rather foolish.
Pre-trib doctrine could lull people into not paying attention to the signs of the times. Just think of all the people who will say, "A preacher told me that I was saved because I repeated a prayer after him, and that I would be raptured. So if God is real, then I am saved, and I will go up in the rapture. So this guy can't be the AntiChrist, because I would already have been raptured."
Show me where any rapture passages says that angels will not be involved.
Wouldn't that be like arguing that since the Matthew, Mark and John accounts did not mention Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross, that Luke must be talking about another crucifixion event so there must have been two of them? That's faulty logic. Additional detail in one passage about the same event is not proof of two events.
Wouldn't that be like arguing that since the Matthew, Mark and John accounts did not mention Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross, that Luke must be talking about another crucifixion event so there must have been two of them? That's faulty logic. Additional detail in one passage about the same event is not proof of two events.
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How do you believe the above ^ jives with the following passage (addressed TO/FOR/ABOUT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [i.e. all those saved "in this present age [singular]"])
1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 [blb] - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10]
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],
9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him. [THIS "WITH [G4862]" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]
IOW, this passage says, "that WHETHER we might WATCH *OR* we might sleep [meaning the same as those words in verse 6] we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him" (and as said in relation to the previous part of the sentence/context); which wording (overall) is distinct from that which we see in the gospels and in the Olivet Discourse--So this is my question to you, as to how you see this ^ "jiving" with what you have put, […] when this passage seems to show that WHETHER [this OR that]____ [the same general outcome is at the end of it, either way]).
P.S. Additionally, I believe all biblically-defined "signs" take place FOLLOWING our Rapture, and are that which point toward and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [not our Rapture (NO "signs" precede IT)]
1 Thessalonians 5:6-10 [blb] - [explanation in brackets--note how the SAME Grk words are in vv.6 and 10]
6 So then we should not sleep [G2518 - katheudōmen] as the others,
but we should watch [G1127 - grēgorōmen] and we should be sober.
7 For those sleeping, sleep by night; and those becoming drunk, get drunk by night.
8 But we being of the day should be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love,
and the helmet, the hope of salvation [an eschatalogical salvation, per context],
9 because God has not destined us for wrath,
but for obtaining salvation through [/by means of] our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 the One having died for us, so that whether we might watch [same Greek word as in verse 6! G1127 - grēgorōmen]
OR [whether] we might sleep [same Greek word as in verse 6! G2518 - katheudōmen--NOT meaning 'death' here as the OTHER Greek word does in the previous chpt!],
we may live together with [G4862 - syn - denoting 'UNION'-with/'IDENTIFICATION'-with] Him. [THIS "WITH [G4862]" word being distinct from the OTHER "with [G3326]" word that is used of the "10 [or 5] Virgins [PLURAL]" who will "go in WITH [G3326 - accompanying] Him to the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (i.e. the EARTHLY MK age, commencing upon His RETURN to the earth)]
IOW, this passage says, "that WHETHER we might WATCH *OR* we might sleep [meaning the same as those words in verse 6] we should live together WITH [G4862 - UNITED-with/IDENTIFIED-with] Him" (and as said in relation to the previous part of the sentence/context); which wording (overall) is distinct from that which we see in the gospels and in the Olivet Discourse--So this is my question to you, as to how you see this ^ "jiving" with what you have put, […] when this passage seems to show that WHETHER [this OR that]____ [the same general outcome is at the end of it, either way]).
P.S. Additionally, I believe all biblically-defined "signs" take place FOLLOWING our Rapture, and are that which point toward and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [not our Rapture (NO "signs" precede IT)]
I agree multiple comings is HOGWASH. Least likely of all
Acts 3:21 sounds like Amill to me. One coming and then its one and done, one judgment sheep and goats, 2 thess 1:7-9, wheat and tares and then WE DONE, off to eternity. Luke 20:34-35 This time of marrying, next time (eternity) of not marrying to those resurrected. Simple.
Now all we got to do is spiritualize Rev 20 beyond recognition and we're good to go!
Acts 3:21 sounds like Amill to me. One coming and then its one and done, one judgment sheep and goats, 2 thess 1:7-9, wheat and tares and then WE DONE, off to eternity. Luke 20:34-35 This time of marrying, next time (eternity) of not marrying to those resurrected. Simple.
Now all we got to do is spiritualize Rev 20 beyond recognition and we're good to go!
You need a "return to starting point" example of the elect or saints.
You guys ignore it completely.
You guys say the saints return to earth in a uturn.
Show me.
We say Jesus returns to heaven with the saints.
Hands down biblical and anyone with a bible HAS to agree.
Under your postrib/"one coming" theory,the only "proof" you claim is OMISSION...Which is false on top of that.
Again, rev 14
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
The ripe fruit reaped DURING THE GT.
You guys got a hard job but by skipping multible verses you convince each other.
You did not even critique joe on the vid you referenced. He was wrong on so many fronts
You guys ignore it completely.
You guys say the saints return to earth in a uturn.
Show me.
We say Jesus returns to heaven with the saints.
Hands down biblical and anyone with a bible HAS to agree.
Under your postrib/"one coming" theory,the only "proof" you claim is OMISSION...Which is false on top of that.
Again, rev 14
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
The ripe fruit reaped DURING THE GT.
You guys got a hard job but by skipping multible verses you convince each other.
You did not even critique joe on the vid you referenced. He was wrong on so many fronts
I'm sorry but your "frustration" is unfounded when you said, "Sometimes I feel as if you and others are purposely resisting the truth." Did it ever occure to you that faith is never without a basis of evidence. God ask no man to trust without evidence, just read Hebrews 11:1.
Just because Jesus said at John 14:1-3 to not let your heart be troubled because I am going to prepare a place with mansions etc. does not prove when He is coming back pretribulationally. The disciples (and I'm talking context here) were troubled because of several depressing occurrences.
First, Jesus had told them He was depareting from them at John 13:33. Second, He implied that He would suffer death by crucifixion at John 12:32-33. Third, He said all would forsake Him and Peter would deny Him at John 13:38. You can also include John 16:32 about the forsaking part. Jesus also stated that one of them would betray Him. John 13:21. Finally, He had told them they could not follow Him until later. John 13:36
What Jesus is "obviously" doing is comforting and if you read the rest of John 14 there are still a little confused because Thomas ask Him at John 14:5 where are you going. Even Jesus Himself is a little annoyed at John 14:9. So, in spite of all this the question that Wall ask you still remains, "Are there two raptures or not?" I would also ask, "How does Jesus saying He is going to prepare a place" translate in a pretrib rapture? I mean I read your explanation that in heaven or in My Fathers house are many mansions how does that prove when the second coming takes place? In short, it does not wash.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Just because Jesus said at John 14:1-3 to not let your heart be troubled because I am going to prepare a place with mansions etc. does not prove when He is coming back pretribulationally. The disciples (and I'm talking context here) were troubled because of several depressing occurrences.
First, Jesus had told them He was depareting from them at John 13:33. Second, He implied that He would suffer death by crucifixion at John 12:32-33. Third, He said all would forsake Him and Peter would deny Him at John 13:38. You can also include John 16:32 about the forsaking part. Jesus also stated that one of them would betray Him. John 13:21. Finally, He had told them they could not follow Him until later. John 13:36
What Jesus is "obviously" doing is comforting and if you read the rest of John 14 there are still a little confused because Thomas ask Him at John 14:5 where are you going. Even Jesus Himself is a little annoyed at John 14:9. So, in spite of all this the question that Wall ask you still remains, "Are there two raptures or not?" I would also ask, "How does Jesus saying He is going to prepare a place" translate in a pretrib rapture? I mean I read your explanation that in heaven or in My Fathers house are many mansions how does that prove when the second coming takes place? In short, it does not wash.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
You need a post Judgement deliverance with a uturn to the destroyed judgement place.
Now notice the brides house is NOT UNDER ASSAULT OR JUDGEMENT IN THE 10 VIRGIN STORY.
The very next parable has no judgement/mass destruction setting
NEITHER IS LOT OR NOAHS DELIVERANCE ANY SUCH POST JUDGEMENT DELIVERANCE
WOW such blatant sanction of verses.
You guys got a tough job for sure
i cant find any creeds in history of church who say there is more than one phase to second coming or anything
its always simple like Jesus will return to judge quick and dead (quote from bible not man made doctrine) and thats what always was believed. even in websites you look up commentary before 1800 and never is it two returns. easy. who can believe all those great men of God were wrong, but today they got it right after this time? i dont believe it. its crazy we cant even agree on the basic fundamentals of faith anymore like Jesus is returning once......
ive looked at bible not there, ive looked at creeds not there, ive looked at commentaries (before 1800s-1900s) not there. lets let it go already. but people can believe what they want its not a salvation problem
its always simple like Jesus will return to judge quick and dead (quote from bible not man made doctrine) and thats what always was believed. even in websites you look up commentary before 1800 and never is it two returns. easy. who can believe all those great men of God were wrong, but today they got it right after this time? i dont believe it. its crazy we cant even agree on the basic fundamentals of faith anymore like Jesus is returning once......
ive looked at bible not there, ive looked at creeds not there, ive looked at commentaries (before 1800s-1900s) not there. lets let it go already. but people can believe what they want its not a salvation problem