What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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i cant find any creeds in history of church who say there is more than one phase to second coming or anything

its always simple like Jesus will return to judge quick and dead (quote from bible not man made doctrine) and thats what always was believed. even in websites you look up commentary before 1800 and never is it two returns. easy. who can believe all those great men of God were wrong, but today they got it right after this time? i dont believe it. its crazy we cant even agree on the basic fundamentals of faith anymore like Jesus is returning once......

ive looked at bible not there, ive looked at creeds not there, ive looked at commentaries (before 1800s-1900s) not there. lets let it go already. but people can believe what they want its not a salvation problem
...and you cant prove it so.

1) you dont know what is not there ...nobody does
2) it is there,and the "nobody believed it" has been debunked.
3) the catholics burned heretics (believing like me) and their writings.
4) those same dead men you center on also believed Jesus could come at any time. Emminancy.(imminent?)
5) you need those same church fathers to basically be infallable..... Just the opposite, they couldnt get many things straight
6) israel was scattered and sacked in ad 70,so they looked through that flawed prism of the non existent nation of Israel.

So all that is what postribs thumb their nose at and actually center on a farce.

Actually center and park there.

IOW the lowest possible position.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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I am assuming that you are "talking to the crowd" here...?

Otherwise - did you misread my post?

I am with you on this issue.

There is only one second-coming of Christ - there is not going to be a third coming.
Here's one DURING THE GT;
REV14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

HMMMMMM
You were sayin?
 

Absolutely

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Jul 23, 2018
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Show me where any rapture passages says that angels will not be involved.

Wouldn't that be like arguing that since the Matthew, Mark and John accounts did not mention Simon of Cyrene carrying the cross, that Luke must be talking about another crucifixion event so there must have been two of them? That's faulty logic. Additional detail in one passage about the same event is not proof of two events.
You can not argue (honestly) that events before and after a certain event being the exact SAME thing is plausable.
We do have several gatherings by Jesus.
You guys go outside that dynamic to deflect it.
Plus you are saying angels sent to reap and Jesus personally reaping alongside angels is the exact same thing.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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its crazy we cant even agree on the basic fundamentals of faith anymore like Jesus is returning once......
Are you joking, or do you have a poor memory? (it's okay if you do :D )
... but I've said (repeatedly) that where Scripture uses the word "RETURN," it speaks of His Second Coming to the earth (and even we pre-tribbers agree He only "RETURNS" *ONCE*;) )
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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^ EDIT TO ADD: Who here has debunked the following quote (not saying it's "pre-trib-as-we-know-it," but certainly sounds like "two stages" here in this quote):

"Seven angels having the last seven plagues, for in them is completed the indignation of God. And these shall be in the last times when the church shall have gone out of the midst."
--Victorinus, Bishop of Pettau, 270ad


[so where it says, "when the church shall have gone out of the midst"... this language is the very language Paul used in 2Th2:7b "until OUT OF THE MIDST HE BE COME [COME TO BE], and then [kai tote]…" (...which I've pointed out repeatedly :) )]
 

Melach

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Mar 28, 2019
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Are you joking, or do you have a poor memory? (it's okay if you do :D )
... but I've said (repeatedly) that where Scripture uses the word "RETURN," it speaks of His Second Coming to the earth (and even we pre-tribbers agree He only "RETURNS" *ONCE*;) )
no they dont. its returning once for the church once with the church.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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no they dont. its returning once for the church once with the church.
I just got done saying that where Scripture uses the word "RETURN," it is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (and as a pre-tribber, I do not disagree that that takes place ONCE).


Sure there are pre-tribbers who don't use language/the language in precise ways, but that goes for both/all viewpoints I've noticed (and noticed it A LOT, LOL); one example is...

those who blanketly state that "Jesus [Himself] shall come as a thief IN THE NIGHT"... but Scripture itself does NOT state that when referring to Jesus Himself... The phrase "IN THE NIGHT" is not included/added when speaking of Jesus Himself... it just states "Behold, I come AS A THIEF. [PERIOD]"... NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is added when speaking of Jesus Himself... Instead, where it says, "the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT," it is referring to the specific, limited, future time period that will LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. the 7-yr trib that PRECEDES His Own [tangible and VISIBLE] "RETURN" to the earth, when thereafter [after that "IN THE NIGHT" time period/aspect of the DOTL (with its "man of sin")], the Rev16:15-16 passage will then take place [Jesus Himself "come AS A THIEF. [period]"--that is, at the end of that specific time period, now at the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect of it). As long as people are careless with the language, confusion will reign... and so many are indeed confused!
 

49

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Jun 28, 2015
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I just got done saying that where Scripture uses the word "RETURN," it is speaking of His Second Coming to the earth (and as a pre-tribber, I do not disagree that that takes place ONCE).


Sure there are pre-tribbers who don't use language/the language in precise ways, but that goes for both/all viewpoints I've noticed (and noticed it A LOT, LOL); one example is...

those who blanketly state that "Jesus [Himself] shall come as a thief IN THE NIGHT"... but Scripture itself does NOT state that when referring to Jesus Himself... The phrase "IN THE NIGHT" is not included/added when speaking of Jesus Himself... it just states "Behold, I come AS A THIEF. [PERIOD]"... NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is added when speaking of Jesus Himself... Instead, where it says, "the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief IN THE NIGHT," it is referring to the specific, limited, future time period that will LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth (i.e. the 7-yr trib that PRECEDES His Own [tangible and VISIBLE] "RETURN" to the earth, when thereafter [after that "IN THE NIGHT" time period/aspect of the DOTL (with its "man of sin")], the Rev16:15-16 passage will then take place [Jesus Himself "come AS A THIEF. [period]"--that is, at the end of that specific time period, now at the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect of it). As long as people are careless with the language, confusion will reign... and so many are indeed confused!

confusion will reign... and so many are indeed confused!

That's me!!
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Again,look it up yourself.
If I happen to write in one of my posts that someone/anyone/everyone should look something up or do there own research --- don't you dare tell me:

"Oh - but, that is just simply not good enough. You absolutely must spoonfeed all of us with a long list of references and evidence for every little teeny-tiny speck of anything that has anything to do with anything that might be in any way associated with what you stated. Because, I shouldn't have to lift a finger to do anything to help myself understand anything I read - because, that is your responsibility and not mine."

Absolutely:

I did not write this post specifically for you; rather, it is an "intentional reaction" (reactionary, but a rational disciplined one without anger) that was/is "triggered" by your post.

Everyone:

I absolutely "despise it" when other people demand things that they will not do themselves.

Despite what some on here seem to think, there is no mandatory requirement for an exhaustive every-detail leave-no-rock-unturned explanation for every single nuance of every statement made in a post - that must be included in every post along with each-and-every statement.

The general default format for threads on this site (and, in fact - to my knowledge - most forum sites) is 'discussion'.

So - have a discussion. And, if you would like more information to clarify or "backup" what someone says - simply ask for it - "nicely" will go a long way.

Don't tell people (or insinuate) that what they said in a particular post (or, possibly, anything they ever say in any post) cannot possibly have any merit whatsoever - just because they did not include the massive book of information that is the "backup" for a statement they made - with the statement in the same post.

With the possible exception of a few on CC ;), nobody wants to quote the whole Bible in every post.

I tend to quote only the verses I feel are necessary to illustrate whatever idea or point I am trying to get across.

If I put no scripture in a post to back up a statement, it generally means one of these things:

1) The scripture I might reference is very well-known to the discussion-at-hand - or, may have been quoted recently-in-the-thread - or some such thing that should not require that it be quoted in that post.

2) There is way too much scripture and/or study required so as to make entirely too impractical to quote it in that post.

3) Sometimes, it simply is not required to "add reference material" to have a productive discussion while trying to get an idea or point across.

It is very rare that a single post can offer all-available-proof for something - the issues being discussed are too complex.

That is what give-and-take discussion is for.

Grow up. Be an adult. Have a conversation. Be nice. Don't get too impatient...

If you just knew how long it sometimes takes me to write posts on this infernal [dumb] "smart" phone that I am "cursed" to have to use for now --- you would probably begin to understand what I am saying all-the-better.

Some people - for different reasons - will tend to not write more than is required to get the [current] idea or point across. Try to be patient with them.

I just can't wait to get my computer - with a real keyboard - set up again.
 

GaryA

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Aug 10, 2019
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Here's one DURING THE GT;
REV14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

HMMMMMM
You were sayin?
This is not during the GT.

I will try to address it later.
 

GaryA

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The reaping and the sickle represent the divine judgment of the unbelieving and the wicked. Only those with a fantastic imagination will see the Rapture in Revelation 14, which is all about wrath.
Revelation 14:14-16 is about the Rapture; Revelation 14:17-20 is about the Wrath of God.
 

GaryA

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absolutely is a pre-tribber like you though. im surprised you dont agree on that

me i see revelation 14 as the second coming too. i see second coming many times also and its so easily to proof that the book of revelation is not chronological by just asking does babylon fall twice?

Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.


clearly this is same event in rev 14 and 18. babylon falls, Jesus returns after it.
No - Jesus causes it to fall after he returns (arrives) - while He is still "in the air" above the earth "dishing out" the Wrath of God.

Revelation 14 itself is not in chronological order. The various "sub-sections" of it are separate illustrations of different aspects/parts of the Second Coming as an overall event.

The Wrath of God actually occurs before the scene that verses 1-5 are describing.

The three 'angel' illustrations are not even in chronological order in terms of the events associated with them.
 

GaryA

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The Rapture of the Church is absent from the book of Revelation.
Except for the conjured-up invoking-of-great-imagination idea that - because the focus of the writing of John shifts from the letters to the chuches to [the rest] (which is still part of the book/letter written to [all of the chuches]) - it somehow indicates with fine precision the exact time of the Rapture relative to all other Bible prophecy.

:rolleyes:

The Rapture of the Church is absent from the book of Revelation.
Guess again.

It is not absent. It is there. Keep searching for the truth.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
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I get all that, but WHO populates the millennium? As I said in bold in my previous post.

I agree that the idea of a rapture coming and second coming is ALL TOO CONFUSING for the first century reader, thats why it aint in NONE of the creeds written throughout the centuries. CENTURIES BRO. Not a single creed mentions a word of it! To be honest MOST creeds are AMIL!
It's my understanding that the inhabitants that end up in the milennium from the 7 year tribulation. There will be people who will survive the gt and a large number of them will be unbelivers. Plus others will be born during that time. Remember Jesus said at Matthew 24:19, "Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days." I'm still doing some more studying on this and thus far there are a lot mixed opininions. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

GaryA

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from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Angels gathering.....not Jesus
From heaven.....not earth.
What? Do you think Jesus "runs around" collecting all of His saints?

Has it ever occurred to you that Jesus might command the angels to "gather" His saints?

In the context - 'heaven' can be the atmosphere - referring to a "full-coverage" of the Earth.
 

GaryA

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[and yes, some parts of Revelation are something like interludes (and backtracking to fill in the details/more info), but the "Seals, Trumpets, Vials" ARE in chronological order]
Each taken separately - yes; however, in chronology/timeline terms, the Seals overlap the Trumpets and "touch" the Vials.