What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?

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DeighAnn

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Those related passages being: Hosea 5:15-6:3; Isaiah 26:16-21; Romans 11:15[25]; Daniel 12:1-4,10; and Romans 9:26/Hosea 1:10 [distinct from Rom9:25/Hos2:23b speaking distinctly of "the Gentiles"]; etc [meaning, AND MORE], where these are speaking of Israel's FUTURE and that it is LIKENED UNTO "a resurrection"
[recall also what I'd said about "[re: resurrection] but each [<--a word meaning, "of more than two"] IN HIS OWN ORDER" and "blessed and holy is the one HAVING A PART [G3313] IN the resurrection the first [the one which is "the resurrection OF LIFE" and how the 2Ws are "resurrected" at the "6th Trumpet/2nd Woe" at a distinct "time-slot" from anyone else... these things are to be well-noted]

CONFUSIONing.

WHAT DOES GODS WORD TELL US ABOUT WHEN THE FIRST RESURRECTION occurs?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Revelation 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,

Revelation 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled and after that he must be loosed a little season.

WHO EXACTLY IS PART OF THE "FIRST RESURRECTION?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION

(And the "dead" are "spiritually dead" not "body and soul dead", hence, not "living" (immortal, don't have to worry about the second death) because until satan is loosed AGAIN, to test those who didn't pass the first time (overcame) so still mortal (still need to worry about the lake of fire) they can't receive their immortality and be amongst the "living" (immortal)

So, IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for there to be a "first" resurrection PREVIOUS to the possibility of receiving the mark.
This is not in anyway confusing, IS IT?

THOSE WHO OVERCOME (by doing exactly what every member of the 7 Christian Churches is told to do in the very beginning) are THOSE WHO "WERE BEHEADED FOR THE WORD, THOSE WHO DID NOT WORSHIP THE BEAST, THOSE WHO DID NOT RECEIVED HIS MARK"
THOSE ARE THE ONES WE ARE TOLD BY THE WORD OF GOD " ARE OF THE FIRST RESURRECTION".

It doesn't matter if you understand that "sealing" happens in the forehead (brain) or not, or if you believe that the Lords Day starts when Satan is kicked out of heaven or when Satan is bound, or the tribulation is still 7 years long or it has been shortened, it only matters that the FIRST RESURRECTION is made up of those who overcame the tribulation of Satan without receiving the mark.

NOThing about THE SO CALLED "GENTILE CHURCH", NOThing about THOSE WHO WERE JUST LIVING LIFE AS EVERY CHRISTIAN HAS BEEN FOR THE LAST TWO THOUSAND YEARS, AND MOST CERTAINLY NOT A SINGLE SOUL who teaches THERE is to BE A "TAKEN OUT pre satan RAPTURE" BEFORE THere COULD be a WORSHIP of THE BEAST, OR RECEIVing of HIS MARK, OR BEHEADing"

If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
IF YOU DO WATCH, THEN YOU " WILL KNOW" WHAT HOUR. He only comes as a thief in the night to THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW.

You have a soul, a descendant of the House of Israel, doesn't know it, takes Christ as Lord and Saviour.
You have a soul, not a descendant of the House of Israel, doesn't know it, takes Christ as Lord and Saviour.

They are NOW both Christians. Both of the same ONE "many membered body". Both of the Spiritual House of Israel.
God may have "different" jobs for them to do, but that does not separate them into experiencing different events.


What MESSAGE is given to the churches?
He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches TO HIM THAT OVERCOMETH
will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
shall not be hurt of the second death.
will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
will I give power over the nations And he shall rule them with a rod of iron as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.
And I will give him the morning star.
the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess hisname before my Father, and before his angels.
I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God and I will write upon him my new name.
will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

What message is given to a "pre rap-ed church"? NOT A SINGLE WORD.

What happens BEFORE "the marriage of the Lamb is come"?
Revelation 19:1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God
Revelation 19:2 For true and righteous are HIS JUDGMENTS for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

What happens AFTER His judgments and BEFORE the marriage?
Revelation 19:3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. (LAKE OF FIRE)
Revelation 19:4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

And who is present?
Revelation 19:5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
Revelation 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Revelation 19:7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.





Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Nope Zeke 37 speakes of the 4 winds
[…]
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! Zeke 37 also speaks of a resurrection {1Cor.15?}. There are only 2 general resurrections left according to the new testament. One at the 1Cor.15 event {called the rapture by many} and one at the great white throne. And they are not fliting off to heaven as the Rapturist claim but are takin to Israel
MATT.24 [29] IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [31] And he shall send his angels with a GREAT SOUND OF A TRUMPET, and they SHALL GATHER TOGETHER HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
PROPHECY OF THE FOUR WINDS! It happens right after the tribulation period. On the Day of the Lord. And when they are gathered {in the twinkling of an eye} they are brought into the land of Israel {Ezek.37v12}. The Rapturist claim we are flitting off to heaven at the 1Cor.15 event but you will not find that anywhere in scripture.
I had mentioned [several things... will simply LIST some here, again]:

--verse 31 (Matthew 24) says, "from the four winds, 'from the ends of the heavens to [/clear to] the ends of them' [i.e. 'from the extremities'--nowhere and no one left out!]"

--Matthew 24:29-31 (at the "GREAT trumpet"; AFTER the trib) is parallel to Isaiah 27:12-13 when the elect of Israel will be gathered (by angels He SHALL SEND to do so) "ONE-by-ONE" (NOT "AS ONE" [the 'ONE BODY'] as is true of "our Rapture")... [for THEM] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM [this is not "our Rapture" which pertains SOLELY to "the Church which is His body"--the descriptions are distinct in every way]

--I've mentioned re: Israel "the graveyard of nations, WHERE SCATTERED"... and that the phrase "from the four winds" is elsewhere used like this (of OTHERS): "I will bring the four winds against Elam from the four corners of the heavens, and I will scatter them to all these winds. There will not be a nation to which Elam’s exiles will not go." Jer49:36

--I mentioned that the 2Ws are "resurrected" at the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe point in the chronology, distinct from when others will be (Daniel was told he would be resurrected "at the END of the days [at the end of very specific days mentioned in that context; whereas the 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe is well before that point... so there you already have TWO (of the "SAVED" set of ppl) that aren't taking place 'at the same moment'/ or 'point in time' in the chronology]... etc...

--Paul takes great pains throughout his 13 [14?] epistles to show [ and inform of] our "union / identification" with [G4862] the risen, ascended, exalted Christ in Heaven ("OUR citizenship is in the heavens" etc) AS "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence)], but people either ignore this, or fail to believe this and thus insist on putting themselves in the place of Israel ["identifying" themselves there, instead of what Scripture says in great detail regarding "His BODY"] and injecting themselves into Israel's [future] role and "setting their minds on" [Israel's] "earthly things" (that which we are exhorted repeatedly not to do; lets not usurp the things which belong to them)]



But... believe as you wish.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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(And the "dead" are "spiritually dead" not "body and soul dead", hence, not "living" (immortal, don't have to worry about the second death) because until satan is loosed AGAIN, to test those who didn't pass the first time (overcame) so still mortal (still need to worry about the lake of fire) they can't receive their immortality and be amongst the "living" (immortal)
Wait a sec... are you saying this is your understanding of things?

And am I understanding this right ^ , that you think that at the time of His Second Coming to the earth [note: I do not believe this is "our Rapture" time-slot, as you know], that what is said in Rev19:21 is not true [which is the time-slot I said is parallel to Isa24:21-22's FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words (involving the "PIT" [see Isa38:18, Ezek31:14 "PIT" (= "death")] and "shut up in the PRISON") and when Lk17:27,29's "and destroyed them ALL" takes place; as well as when "the angels SHALL REAP" Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50, esp v. 30,39-42 ("the furnace OF the fire" etc); as well as Matt25:41-46a; as well as all the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" passages and "cast into outer darkness" passages; as opposed to the "BLESSED" ones who ENTER the MK age (I had supplied about 8 or 9 "BLESSED" passages parallel, see also Mark 11:10);... that somehow you believe the "unsaved" survive His 2nd Coming to the earth to continue to exist alongside the "BLESSED" in the MK age, so that they (the "unsaved"--like in Matthew 7:21-23!!) can continue to have a second chance at what they failed to do the first time, according to your view?? (am I understanding you right?)
 

Absolutely

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i



Because the "SUBJECT" of the conversation was NOT HIS RETURNING, but "where are the dead". He wasn't telling them any "SPECIFICS" about the Lords Day, he was being specific about "seeing their loved ones again" and how that would take place.


But does he continue on and give ANY MENTION OF A WHEN ? YES
1 Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. HE DOESN'T COME AS A THIEF IN THE NIGHT TO THOSE WHO KNOW HIM, ONLY THOSE WHO DON'T.

1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
WHO SAYS "PEACE AND SAFETY"??

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
(told you)

1 Thessalonians 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

1 Thessalonians 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

1Thessalonians 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

1 Thessalonians 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

1 Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

1 Thessalonians 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

1 Thessalonians 5:12 And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

1 Thessalonians 5:13 And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.





Why does Jesus need to bring all the saints to "pre trib rapture" the saints?

And then what happens in heaven? They all go back to under the altar? Does Jesus then return to the side of God?
Factor in mat 25 and the dialog at the last supper.

Postrib rapture adherents leave our verses out
 

bluto

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Factor in mat 25 and the dialog at the last supper.

Postrib rapture adherents leave our verses out
Not so, I said the following at my post #693.

Unfortunately and I'm sorry to say the five foolish virgins were not saved. Look at what Matthew 25:12 says, "But He answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you." Remember in my other post I stated from Matthew 7:23 the four most lethal words (at least accoding to me) is when Jesus stated, "I never knew you."

He said this to "PROFESSING" Christians who are identified at Matthew 7:22 where Jesus said, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" Again, they were professing Christians just like the Word of faith preachers and teachers you see on tv promising healing, money and all sorts of things to entice followers after them.

Now, getting back to Matthew chapter 25. It seems everone around here knows all about the parable of the ten virgins and yet, no mentions the next parable of Jesus about the "talents." Matthew 25:15, "And to one He gave five talents, to another, two, and to another one, each according to his own ability, and he went on a journey." I think the idea about "each according to his own ability" means the master knew what each of them was capable of doing.

I am not going through all the verses but will directly go to Matthew 25:26, "But his master answered and said to him. You wicked and lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed." What happens to the lazy slave with one talent can be found at Matthew 25:29-30.

"For to everyone who has shall more shall be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Vs30, "And cast out the worthless slave INTO OUTER DARKNESS; IN THAT PLACE THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." I highly suggest you read the rest of Matthew 25 starting at vs31. These are "sobering" words and should be taken seriously. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Now, getting back to Matthew chapter 25. It seems everone around here knows all about the parable of the ten virgins and yet, no mentions the next parable of Jesus about the "talents." Matthew 25:15, "And to one He gave five talents, to another, two, and to another one, each according to his own ability, and he went on a journey." I think the idea about "each according to his own ability" means the master knew what each of them was capable of doing.
I am continually listing all of the parallels to this, in a great many of my posts, where I've said that:

Matt8:11-12/Lk13:27-28 (G347 "shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]")
Matt13:42,50 (and context)
Matt22:13 (vv.8-14)
Matt24:51 (and all of chpts 24-25, in Jesus' response to their Qs)

...ALL ^ speak of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (and the specific, limited, future 'time-period' [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] which leads UP TO that)… [NOT about "our Rapture" nor ITS 'time-slot']


[…] can be found at Matthew 25:29-30.

"For to everyone who has shall more shall be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Vs30, "And cast out the worthless slave INTO OUTER DARKNESS; IN THAT PLACE THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." I highly suggest you read the rest of Matthew 25 starting at vs31. These are "sobering" words and should be taken seriously. :eek:
 

oyster67

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The thing about Pre-Trib Raps is that you can't prove when or how until after the fact. The just shall live by faith. See you at the Marriage Supper while those that are left behind are going through the Trib down below.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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I am continually listing all of the parallels to this [Matt25:14-30 passage], in a great many of my posts, where I've said that:
Matt8:11-12/Lk13:27-28 (G347 "shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]")
Matt13:42,50 (and context)
Matt22:13 (vv.8-14)
Matt24:51 (and all of chpts 24-25, in Jesus' response to their Qs)
...ALL ^ speak of His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (and the specific, limited, future 'time-period' [FOLLOWING "our Rapture"] which leads UP TO that)… [NOT about "our Rapture" nor ITS 'time-slot']
P.S. (I was called away from my typing, when I made that post, so I wanted to add another one, parallel to this Matt25:14-30 passage [and those, above] that I usually list along with those ^ )...

--and Luke 12:42-44 (in its Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 context: "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN the meal! [the G347 ('shall sit down [around a table/at a meal]'] thing! [and its parallels])]

Lk 12 -

42And the Lord said, “Who then is the faithful, wise manager [/steward], whom the master will set over the care of his servants, to give them the measure of food in season? 43Blessed is that servant whom, having come, his master will find thus doing. 44Of a truth I say to you that he will set him over all his possessions [/ruler over all that he hath].
 

PlainWord

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One must first understand what the great tribulation was before one can understand the timing of the resurrection and "rapture." The great tribulation, as spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24 was the brutal period of the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD by Titus. Once this is understood, one can properly place the resurrection and rapture.

Paul taught that the resurrection comes before the rapture. Multiple historians cite the resurrection as occurring during the reign of Nero. Since Nero died in 68 AD, we know the resurrection was pre-trib. But what of the so-called Rapture? Mat 24:29 states that the presence of Christ returns "immediately after the tribulation of those days." Thus the rapture was post-trib and the resurrection was pre-trib.

I suspect many on here believe the rapture is when living Christians have their bodies transformed into spiritual bodies and are whisked off to heaven, escaping death which violates Heb 9:27. Well, you would be wrong about that. Nowhere is this taught.
 

PlainWord

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Would Christ leave His disciples in the ground, disembodied, for so long? The below from an early Church writer speaking of Christ's disciples.

"If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead." The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians Chapter IX.-Let Us Live with Christ.

Did Ignatius, who wrote around 105-115 AD tell the Magnesians that Christ returned and raised the disciples from the dead – as in past tense? Looks like it.
 

Absolutely

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Not so, I said the following at my post #693.

Unfortunately and I'm sorry to say the five foolish virgins were not saved. Look at what Matthew 25:12 says, "But He answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you." Remember in my other post I stated from Matthew 7:23 the four most lethal words (at least accoding to me) is when Jesus stated, "I never knew you."

He said this to "PROFESSING" Christians who are identified at Matthew 7:22 where Jesus said, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" Again, they were professing Christians just like the Word of faith preachers and teachers you see on tv promising healing, money and all sorts of things to entice followers after them.

Now, getting back to Matthew chapter 25. It seems everone around here knows all about the parable of the ten virgins and yet, no mentions the next parable of Jesus about the "talents." Matthew 25:15, "And to one He gave five talents, to another, two, and to another one, each according to his own ability, and he went on a journey." I think the idea about "each according to his own ability" means the master knew what each of them was capable of doing.

I am not going through all the verses but will directly go to Matthew 25:26, "But his master answered and said to him. You wicked and lazy slave, you knew that I reap where I did not sow, and gather where I scattered no seed." What happens to the lazy slave with one talent can be found at Matthew 25:29-30.

"For to everyone who has shall more shall be given, and he shall have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. Vs30, "And cast out the worthless slave INTO OUTER DARKNESS; IN THAT PLACE THERE SHALL BE WEEPING AND GNASHING OF TEETH." I highly suggest you read the rest of Matthew 25 starting at vs31. These are "sobering" words and should be taken seriously. :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
The unsaved are not virgins,and arent pure chaste and separated(virgins) nor have light,nor have the Holy Spirit.

Your leaning against all those things only proves your NEED to change the bible.

You need it changed.

Logic is guiding you, against a no brainer.

In your haste to reframe you leave out the heart of the matter.
WORTHYNESS.

The ENTIRE POINT OF ILLUSTRATION in the parable is "who is worthy"

Crowns and priveledge will be awarded in heaven to WORTHY SAINTS.

(no matter what your logic demands)
 

Absolutely

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BTW.
Most all the parables are out of the natural logic dimension.
 

Absolutely

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The thing about Pre-Trib Raps is that you can't prove when or how until after the fact. The just shall live by faith. See you at the Marriage Supper while those that are left behind are going through the Trib down below.
Not what the bible says.
The innumerable number (millions? Billions?)
Are killed right away DURING THE GT.

It even says power was given the AC to overcome the saints, and that every man woman and child take the mark.

So the 5 foolish virgins left behind are beheaded by the ac and end up at the supper.
 

Absolutely

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QUOTE;
""He said this to "PROFESSING" Christians who are identified at Matthew 7:22 where Jesus said, "Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?" Again, they were professing Christians just like the Word of faith preachers and teachers you see on tv promising healing, money and all sorts of things to entice followers after them.""

You got more problems than that when you reframe the virgin parable.

It is comical that in your camp you guys stumble so hard over the obvious.

I am thankful I dont have any need for that nonsense.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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One must first understand what the great tribulation was before one can understand the timing of the resurrection and "rapture." The great tribulation, as spoken of by Jesus in Mat 24 was the brutal period of the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD by Titus. Once this is understood, one can properly place the resurrection and rapture.
Not convincing... because of what I'd put in an earlier post:

[quoting that post]

The "BoBPs" ['the beginning of birth pangs'] ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11--THIS IS KEY);


but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames (and with wholly distinct ends/outcomes)...

(one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occuring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period which time period will START with 2Th2:8a/9a [its BEGINNING ('man of sin be revealed')], continue to unfold until 2Th2:4 [its MIDDLE], and then unfold further onto its 2Th2:8b conclusion [its END]; just like Dan9:27[26] shows a BEGINNING, a MIDDLE, an END; and just like the "Beg-Mid-End" shown in Rev6:2/Rev13:5/Rev19:19,21[<--this 19:19,21 point-in-time, being parallel with Isa24:21-22(23)'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words (His 2nd Coming to the earth), followed by a "time-period" when thereafter the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will be carried out (GWTj)]).

The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [even to end of trib, per Rev11:2]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together [one BY one] by angels [He shall SEND to do so] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture)]).

Verse 32 of Lk21, where it says, "TILL ALL be fulfilled," necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said, which was, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" ['the TIMES of the Gentiles' referring to that which started in 606/605bc, involves Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold," and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (not "the Church age"; and is DISTINCT from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"], which is entirely distinct from their being "gathered" TO there!


These SEQUENCE issues prove that they cannot be speaking of the same thing; their "ends" (end results) are entirely opposite!

[and]

The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:

--Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its [own] "SEE-then-FLEE" [see v.12; vv.12-24a];

--whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".

[end quoting that post]
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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Not convincing... because of what I'd put in an earlier post:

[quoting that post]

The "BoBPs" ['the beginning of birth pangs'] ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11--THIS IS KEY);


but the SEQUENCE is distinct, thus proving that the "SEE-then-FLEEs" are wholly distinct events at wholly distinct time frames (and with wholly distinct ends/outcomes)...

(one "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events surrounding 70ad; the other "SEE-then-FLEE" in the events occuring in the midst/middle of the [far-future] specific, limited [7-yr] tribulation period which time period will START with 2Th2:8a/9a [its BEGINNING ('man of sin be revealed')], continue to unfold until 2Th2:4 [its MIDDLE], and then unfold further onto its 2Th2:8b conclusion [its END]; just like Dan9:27[26] shows a BEGINNING, a MIDDLE, an END; and just like the "Beg-Mid-End" shown in Rev6:2/Rev13:5/Rev19:19,21[<--this 19:19,21 point-in-time, being parallel with Isa24:21-22(23)'s FIRST of TWO "PUNISH" words (His 2nd Coming to the earth), followed by a "time-period" when thereafter the SECOND of the TWO "PUNISH" words will be carried out (GWTj)]).

The 70ad events result in their [that is, Israel] "be led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (and Jerusalem trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL" [even to end of trib, per Rev11:2]); whereas the Matthew 24 passage shows its "end" to be their being gathered together [one BY one] by angels [He shall SEND to do so] to worship the Lord in the holy mount AT JERUSALEM (comp. Matt24:29-31 with Isa27:12-13 [@ "the GREAT trumpet" (not at our Rapture)]).

Verse 32 of Lk21, where it says, "TILL ALL be fulfilled," necessarily INCLUDES that which v.24 had just said, which was, "and [they] shall be led away captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, UNTIL the TIMES of the Gentiles be fulfilled" ['the TIMES of the Gentiles' referring to that which started in 606/605bc, involves Neb's dream/statue/image, with Neb as "head of gold," and represents "Gentile domination over Israel" (not "the Church age"; and is DISTINCT from the phrase "the FULNESS of the Gentiles"], which is entirely distinct from their being "gathered" TO there!


These SEQUENCE issues prove that they cannot be speaking of the same thing; their "ends" (end results) are entirely opposite!

[and]

The info surrounding "the beginning of birth PANGS" reveals a SEQUENCE:

--Luke 21 has the "BoBPs" coming AFTER the 70ad events with its [own] "SEE-then-FLEE" [see v.12; vv.12-24a];

--whereas Matthew 24 has the "BoBPs" taking place BEFORE its [later, sequentially] "SEE-then-FLEE".

[end quoting that post]
Sorry, it's hard to follow your tortured logic. All passages point to the 70 AD events. The BoBPs (as you call it) is the period before 66 AD which is when the 7 year "trib" period began. The ends are identical. The Mosaic Ages came to an end and the Messianic age began in 70 AD.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Sorry, it's hard to follow your tortured logic. All passages point to the 70 AD events. The BoBPs (as you call it) is the period before 66 AD which is when the 7 year "trib" period began. The ends are identical. The Mosaic Ages came to an end and the Messianic age began in 70 AD.
Okay, I had said:

"The "BoBPs" ['the beginning of birth pangs'] ^ are the same identical things in all 3 chpts (Matt24:4-8, Mk13:5-8, Lk21:8-11--THIS IS KEY)"

[can we agree here ^ ??]

Then note verse 12 of Luke 21.

It states,

"BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [THINGS]"... meaning, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE 'beginning of birth pangs' [JUST LISTED]," the 70ad events must take place [FIRST, BEFORE 'the beginning of BPs']: so the 70ad events in vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there... meaning, the 70ad events INCLUDING their being "led away captive into all the nations" per Lk21:24b (must take place "BEFORE" the beginning of birth pangs).

[are we trackin' so far?]


Then, Paul later speaks of the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" which will kick off "the DOTL" time period... (same one as is the INITIAL one Jesus spoke of in Matt24:4/Mk13:5)
 

PlainWord

Senior Member
Jun 11, 2013
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Yes, we agree to this point.
[/QUOTE]

"BUT BEFORE ALL THESE [THINGS]"... meaning, "BUT BEFORE ALL THESE 'beginning of birth pangs' [JUST LISTED]," the 70ad events must take place [FIRST, BEFORE 'the beginning of BPs']:
Nope, not the 70 AD events. Please read the passage you cite again:

12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake. 13 But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 14 Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 15 for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist.

Thus before the birth pangs the disciples would be persecuted, which we know from reading Acts.

The great tribulation follows the persecution and BoBPs. The time to flee is when Jerusalem is surrounded by Rome.
 

PlainWord

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Jun 11, 2013
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All of the Olivet accounts, Mt 24, Mk 13, Lk 21 describe the same events, that being the period between Christ and 70 AD. There is nothing in those 3 passages which discuss any period relating to our times. Yes, the 1 & 2 Thes events coincide as well as all of Revelation. The Bible is centered on the second earth age, the age of Israel. Very little information about our age is given.
 

garee

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Mar 28, 2016
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WHO EXACTLY IS PART OF THE "FIRST RESURRECTION?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION


It all depends if we look at that parable according to the prescribed signified language of Revelation .Or if we try a literalize away the spiritual understanding ?

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV)The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

All believers are part of the first ressurection that took place in the fullness of time signaled by the refomation .The viel was torn opening the way as the glory that did follow the words. . It is finished .

70 years later has nothing to do with the gospel .When Christ said it is finished it destroyed the abomination of desolation which stood in the holy unseen place of the glory of God. Men can then walk by faith and not after the pagan foundation of Kings and fathers. That period of time as a parable or figure using the signified langauge of God had come to a end.

From my experience many ignore the reformation as if we were still waiting for the .. . . . It is finished .

Hebrew 9: 9-10 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

The rest of the dead that are those living and reining with Christ on the last day like us they will rise simotaniiously with those asleep and receive the promise our new incorruptible bodies . At that same twinkling of the eye death in respect to the letter of the law will be cast into the judgment of Christ. Never to rise and condemn another whole creation .