What is your BEST PROOF for a pre-trib Rapture?
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The 10 virgins.
5 go into the marriage chamber.
The bride is gentile.
(See ruth for a vivid depiction)
I am glad i do not have to unlearn hyper Pauline.
We see it sway you right out of basic truth.
The whole bible is written by God to his people.
The entire bible is to me. All of it. All inspired
...not just the pauline books.
Btw,since hebrews is sketcy as to authorship, can you trust it????
5 go into the marriage chamber.
The bride is gentile.
(See ruth for a vivid depiction)
I am glad i do not have to unlearn hyper Pauline.
We see it sway you right out of basic truth.
The whole bible is written by God to his people.
The entire bible is to me. All of it. All inspired
...not just the pauline books.
Btw,since hebrews is sketcy as to authorship, can you trust it????
You should build an ark because God told you to. You should also make animal sacrifices because God told you to.
Oh wait, those directions where not to me but for me to read and study.
The Bible is not all written to you, but for you. The huge mistake coming from your thinking is not knowing how to rightly divide the Church from the nation of Israel.
Where is Christ’s bride in Matthew 25?
Oh wait, those directions where not to me but for me to read and study.
The Bible is not all written to you, but for you. The huge mistake coming from your thinking is not knowing how to rightly divide the Church from the nation of Israel.
Where is Christ’s bride in Matthew 25?
You may be interested in the eschatological implications, but the letters to the churches were written to churches in John's time, and they did apply to them.
Revelation 3
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
The Nicolaitans were described as naked.
Revelation 3
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
The Nicolaitans were described as naked.
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God's wrath is towards unbelievers not toward the saints. The saints do experience the wrath of the best.
Revelation uses 'church' to refer to an individual congregation in a city, and 'saints' to refer to believers throughout different locations. Paul, over time in his epistles, starts to use the word 'church' (ekklesia) in a broader sense. John uses it more literally. But Paul tells us that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes to be glorified in the saints and to execute jugment on unbelievers.
Let's keep your comments in perspective. The Bible teaches that Jesus will return. At his coming, his 'parousia.' Paul shows us in I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 that the resurrection happens at Jesus parousia/coming. I Thes. 4 shows us that rapture happens at His parousia.
There is no scripture that says that there will be a pre-tribulational rapture. Pre-tribbers assume this theory and then latch on to little things like you are doing. The bowls of wrath are poured out on the earth in the book of Revelation. The saints are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. So they argue-- see there is wrath being poured out, so the church must not be there!
But the thing is, that argument contradicts what we read in scripture about the rapture/resurrection event Paul described. The pre-trib rapture is not in the Bible. And creating a whole new rapture out of thin air is not the only way to deal with the wrath issue.
It helps to realize that wrath is anger and God is not angry with those who are right with Him through Jesus.
If you want to prove your case, actually show where the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture.
Yes, it should not overtake us as a thief. Read Matthew 24 about this.
Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Why would he tell them to be ready if they were going to be raptured 7 years before? There is another reference to coming as a thief in Revelation also.
The point is to be ready, not that the church won't be here.
That rapture you describe occurs at the parousia. Look it up in the passage. What I am seeing here is that you do not search out topics-- like looking up references to coming as a thief-- throughout scripture. Instead, you seem to be trying to spin together the first pre-trib argument you can come up with, that pops into your heard.
Why would you assume that the way Jesus rescues us from the wrath to come is to rapture us up in a rapture that the Bible never teaches about? The rapture the Bible teaches about is the one at the parousia, not seven years before. You should interpret this verse consistent with other scripture, not with made-up additional comings of Christ that the scriptures do not teach. God protected His people in Egypt, and we also know there is an eternal judgment God saves the saints from.
If you don't know if the tribulational saints are appointed to wrath but think they will be exposed to it, then why use this as a pretrib argument? If saints can not be appointed to wrath but still be exposed to it, why pre-trib argument don't you lose your strongest pre-trib argument?
So you do think this is for believers? I thought your interpretation did away with that verse from applying to us.
People have suffered from these things for thousands of years, also.
If saints suffer during these times, that does not mean that God is wroth against the saints, does it?
Can you show me in the Bible where there is a rapture before all these things occur?
Revelation uses 'church' to refer to an individual congregation in a city, and 'saints' to refer to believers throughout different locations. Paul, over time in his epistles, starts to use the word 'church' (ekklesia) in a broader sense. John uses it more literally. But Paul tells us that Jesus will give the church rest when he comes to be glorified in the saints and to execute jugment on unbelievers.
Let's keep your comments in perspective. The Bible teaches that Jesus will return. At his coming, his 'parousia.' Paul shows us in I Thessalonians 4 and I Corinthians 15 that the resurrection happens at Jesus parousia/coming. I Thes. 4 shows us that rapture happens at His parousia.
There is no scripture that says that there will be a pre-tribulational rapture. Pre-tribbers assume this theory and then latch on to little things like you are doing. The bowls of wrath are poured out on the earth in the book of Revelation. The saints are not appointed unto wrath but to obtain salvation. So they argue-- see there is wrath being poured out, so the church must not be there!
But the thing is, that argument contradicts what we read in scripture about the rapture/resurrection event Paul described. The pre-trib rapture is not in the Bible. And creating a whole new rapture out of thin air is not the only way to deal with the wrath issue.
It helps to realize that wrath is anger and God is not angry with those who are right with Him through Jesus.
If you want to prove your case, actually show where the Bible teaches a pre-trib rapture.
Yes, it should not overtake us as a thief. Read Matthew 24 about this.
Matthew 24
43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Why would he tell them to be ready if they were going to be raptured 7 years before? There is another reference to coming as a thief in Revelation also.
The point is to be ready, not that the church won't be here.
That rapture you describe occurs at the parousia. Look it up in the passage. What I am seeing here is that you do not search out topics-- like looking up references to coming as a thief-- throughout scripture. Instead, you seem to be trying to spin together the first pre-trib argument you can come up with, that pops into your heard.
Why would you assume that the way Jesus rescues us from the wrath to come is to rapture us up in a rapture that the Bible never teaches about? The rapture the Bible teaches about is the one at the parousia, not seven years before. You should interpret this verse consistent with other scripture, not with made-up additional comings of Christ that the scriptures do not teach. God protected His people in Egypt, and we also know there is an eternal judgment God saves the saints from.
If you don't know if the tribulational saints are appointed to wrath but think they will be exposed to it, then why use this as a pretrib argument? If saints can not be appointed to wrath but still be exposed to it, why pre-trib argument don't you lose your strongest pre-trib argument?
So you do think this is for believers? I thought your interpretation did away with that verse from applying to us.
People have suffered from these things for thousands of years, also.
If saints suffer during these times, that does not mean that God is wroth against the saints, does it?
Can you show me in the Bible where there is a rapture before all these things occur?
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Tribulation jews are told to endure to the end. Taking the mark would condemn them forever.
Revelation 13
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 13
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
Revelation 14
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Good day Melach,
This is a good question and one that I have pondered myself.
From the time that Jesus ascended into heaven, His return has always been imminent. Unlike the second coming, there are no signs leading up to give believers any idea of when He will return for us. All that we do have that gives us any kind of a clue that this event is getting close, is because we can see the stage being set for the events which are to take place during the time of God's wrath and the coming antichrist. Since we know that the church will not to suffer God's wrath, then we can know that the time is near, because we must be removed prior to that time of wrath.
However, the second coming, i.e. when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, is marked by all of signs, listed both in Matt.24 and in Revelation chapters 6 thru 18, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I was on the earth during that time, I would be able to follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a map, so that once I saw the events of the 7th bowl taking place, then I would know that Jesus is about to return to the earth, fulfilling Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and Rev.19:11-21. Let's look at the scriptures that refer to Jesus coming like a thief:
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"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Matt.24:42-44)
===============================================================
First it is important to understand that the end of the age is not referring to only the day that Jesus returns, but includes the gathering of the church, the wrath of God which follows, the beasts kingdom and the literal return of the Lord to the earth. Case in point, Matt.24 describes all of the characteristics and events leading up to and includes the actual day that the Lord returns, which combined, is consider as part of the process of the end of the age.
=============================================================
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. (I Thess.5:1-3)
=============================================================
Prior to the scripture above, Paul gave an detailed account of resurrection of the dead in Christ and the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then immediately following that he says, "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." The times and dates would then have to refer back to the timing of when the resurrection and the catching away was going to take place, which Paul says "the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." The resurrection and the day of the Lord are closely linked in that, following the gathering of the church, the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, follows. Once the Lord's bride is off the earth, then He can begin to deal with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree and a Christ rejecting world.
The day of Lord is the time of God's wrath which follows the resurrection and catching away and in fact appears to initiate it, i.e. the church is gathered, then God's wrath ensues.
============================================================
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare." (2 Pet.3:10)
===========================================================
In the scripture above, Peter refers to the day of the Lord coming like a thief and includes the destruction of these present heavens and earth. So, from this we can understand that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is not restricted to the time of God's wrath, but covers a period of time. Above, Peter referred to the day of the Lord as the time of this heaven and earths destruction. However, since we know from other scriptures that there must be a millennial kingdom which follows after the Lord returns to the earth, then this current heaven and earth cannot be destroyed by fire until the thousand year reign of Chirst is completed. In support of this, in Rev.20:11, which is after the millennium, it states that as the great white throne judgment is about to take place, this current heaven and earth pass away. Also in Rev.21:1 after the great white throne judgment, John sees the new heaven and new earth, stating that the first heaven and first earth had passed away. Therefore, Peter would have to be speaking in general terms opposed to chronologically. For there is no other mention of this heaven and earth being burned up at the time Jesus returns to the earth to end age.
=========================================================
"Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. (Rev.3:3)
========================================================
The scripture above is a warning from the Lord to the church of Sardis and any believer who is guilty of the same. Though this was written to the church of Sardis and since they have long died and the Lord has yet to return like a thief, then the warnings are to believers throughout the entire church period who are guilty of Sardis' sins and specifically to those who would be existing when the Lord appears to gather His church.
=============================================================
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”
==============================================================
The scripture above which you quoted in your post, is inserted by the Lord after the 6th bowl is poured out. I always wondered about why the Lord uses the same phrase "I am coming like a thief" as He used for His appearing to gather the church, especially when there are so many signs that must take place leading up to His return to the earth to end the age, opposed to there be no signs leading up to His appearing to gather the church. My concern was whether that information was inserted as a warning to those who are reading His word to be watching and ready, or is it directed at those on the earth during the time when the 6th bowl is poured out?
In any case and to give you give some kind of answer, even though the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is marked by many signs, giving those on the earth during that time a better understanding of its nearness, it is still true that no one can know the day or the hour. We just know that it will be sometime after the 7th bowl is poured out. It could be immediately after, or a day, or a week, or a month. No one even then would know when He will return. Personally, I wish that this phrase was only used to describe the Lord's coming for His church for confusion's sake.
Though the phrase "like a thief is not used" the parable of the ten virgins is also in reference to the Lord's return for His church, where the Lord says "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
I hope that in some way this was beneficial.
This is a good question and one that I have pondered myself.
From the time that Jesus ascended into heaven, His return has always been imminent. Unlike the second coming, there are no signs leading up to give believers any idea of when He will return for us. All that we do have that gives us any kind of a clue that this event is getting close, is because we can see the stage being set for the events which are to take place during the time of God's wrath and the coming antichrist. Since we know that the church will not to suffer God's wrath, then we can know that the time is near, because we must be removed prior to that time of wrath.
However, the second coming, i.e. when Jesus returns to the earth to end the age, is marked by all of signs, listed both in Matt.24 and in Revelation chapters 6 thru 18, via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. If I was on the earth during that time, I would be able to follow the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments like a map, so that once I saw the events of the 7th bowl taking place, then I would know that Jesus is about to return to the earth, fulfilling Matt.24:29-31, Rev.1:7 and Rev.19:11-21. Let's look at the scriptures that refer to Jesus coming like a thief:
================================================================
"Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him." (Matt.24:42-44)
===============================================================
First it is important to understand that the end of the age is not referring to only the day that Jesus returns, but includes the gathering of the church, the wrath of God which follows, the beasts kingdom and the literal return of the Lord to the earth. Case in point, Matt.24 describes all of the characteristics and events leading up to and includes the actual day that the Lord returns, which combined, is consider as part of the process of the end of the age.
=============================================================
"Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. (I Thess.5:1-3)
=============================================================
Prior to the scripture above, Paul gave an detailed account of resurrection of the dead in Christ and the living being changed and caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Then immediately following that he says, "Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." The times and dates would then have to refer back to the timing of when the resurrection and the catching away was going to take place, which Paul says "the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night." The resurrection and the day of the Lord are closely linked in that, following the gathering of the church, the day of the Lord, the time of God's wrath, follows. Once the Lord's bride is off the earth, then He can begin to deal with Israel in fulfillment of that last seven years of the decree and a Christ rejecting world.
The day of Lord is the time of God's wrath which follows the resurrection and catching away and in fact appears to initiate it, i.e. the church is gathered, then God's wrath ensues.
============================================================
"But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything done in it will be laid bare." (2 Pet.3:10)
===========================================================
In the scripture above, Peter refers to the day of the Lord coming like a thief and includes the destruction of these present heavens and earth. So, from this we can understand that the phrase "the day of the Lord" is not restricted to the time of God's wrath, but covers a period of time. Above, Peter referred to the day of the Lord as the time of this heaven and earths destruction. However, since we know from other scriptures that there must be a millennial kingdom which follows after the Lord returns to the earth, then this current heaven and earth cannot be destroyed by fire until the thousand year reign of Chirst is completed. In support of this, in Rev.20:11, which is after the millennium, it states that as the great white throne judgment is about to take place, this current heaven and earth pass away. Also in Rev.21:1 after the great white throne judgment, John sees the new heaven and new earth, stating that the first heaven and first earth had passed away. Therefore, Peter would have to be speaking in general terms opposed to chronologically. For there is no other mention of this heaven and earth being burned up at the time Jesus returns to the earth to end age.
=========================================================
"Remember, then, what you have received and heard. Keep it and repent. If you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know the hour when I will come upon you. (Rev.3:3)
========================================================
The scripture above is a warning from the Lord to the church of Sardis and any believer who is guilty of the same. Though this was written to the church of Sardis and since they have long died and the Lord has yet to return like a thief, then the warnings are to believers throughout the entire church period who are guilty of Sardis' sins and specifically to those who would be existing when the Lord appears to gather His church.
=============================================================
"Behold, I am coming like a thief. Blessed is the one who remains awake and clothed, so that he will not go naked and let his shame be exposed.”
==============================================================
The scripture above which you quoted in your post, is inserted by the Lord after the 6th bowl is poured out. I always wondered about why the Lord uses the same phrase "I am coming like a thief" as He used for His appearing to gather the church, especially when there are so many signs that must take place leading up to His return to the earth to end the age, opposed to there be no signs leading up to His appearing to gather the church. My concern was whether that information was inserted as a warning to those who are reading His word to be watching and ready, or is it directed at those on the earth during the time when the 6th bowl is poured out?
In any case and to give you give some kind of answer, even though the Lord's return to the earth to end the age is marked by many signs, giving those on the earth during that time a better understanding of its nearness, it is still true that no one can know the day or the hour. We just know that it will be sometime after the 7th bowl is poured out. It could be immediately after, or a day, or a week, or a month. No one even then would know when He will return. Personally, I wish that this phrase was only used to describe the Lord's coming for His church for confusion's sake.
Though the phrase "like a thief is not used" the parable of the ten virgins is also in reference to the Lord's return for His church, where the Lord says "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour."
I hope that in some way this was beneficial.
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This has been a Scripture that made me at one point lean toward amillennialism out of tradition. But I quickly noticed this would be impossible because not only would we have to spiritualize the millennium completely but the worst part would be that when we read Revelation 20 with amillennial lenses we would end up with God destroying all the saved when the earth is burned up in verse 11 and only after that would there be that general resurrection. They got the idea from John 5:28-29 and forgot to compare Scripture with Scripture.
That is what this is all about, comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know all things written must be fulfilled. That is why I am a dispensationalist. We have all the verses in order, down pat, no Scriptures left unfulfilled or ignored.
That is what this is all about, comparing Scripture with Scripture, we know all things written must be fulfilled. That is why I am a dispensationalist. We have all the verses in order, down pat, no Scriptures left unfulfilled or ignored.
Well, I'm glad that you didn't wander over to the amillennial side, TooFast! Especially when it would require you to ignore the mentioning of "a thousand years" six times in Revelation 20, as well as the OT scriptures which describe that time period, such as the lion eating straw like the Ox. We can't discard other scriptures in order to settle on a favored belief, which unfortunately is what many do. I couldn't be comfortable with that, although people accuse me of it anyway.
This scripture is obviously confusing at first glance because it would give the impression that immediately after the Lord returns like a thief, the current heaven and earth are destroyed. However, what Peter is saying is not incorrect. What I mean is, yes, the Lord is in deed is going to come like a thief and yes, this current heaven and earth are going to be burned up, but not in that immediate order. For we can deduce this from the other scriptures as you mentioned.
Praise God that you are zealous for the truth and accuracy of His word. I wish everyone was.
This scripture is obviously confusing at first glance because it would give the impression that immediately after the Lord returns like a thief, the current heaven and earth are destroyed. However, what Peter is saying is not incorrect. What I mean is, yes, the Lord is in deed is going to come like a thief and yes, this current heaven and earth are going to be burned up, but not in that immediate order. For we can deduce this from the other scriptures as you mentioned.
Praise God that you are zealous for the truth and accuracy of His word. I wish everyone was.
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