When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

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lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#1
To discover the timing of the first seal, we must study the context of the first seal, which would be chapters 4 & 5, John's "throne room" vision. Can we discover timing? Yes. Can you discover the intent of the Author, God, in this passage? I think we can. Most people give no thought to the context and pull the first seal out of its context.

Once upon a time, I was studying and meditating on chapters 4 & 5. Finally I got stuck in John weeping much, and I could not get away from that. It wasn't me, it was the Holy Spirit. I began to bug God about that, asking Him why we needed to know why John wept, and why it was “much.” Finally God spoke and said, “it shows timing. Again I spent days reading and meditating and praying in tongues, and I could not find timing anywhere, so continued to bug Him about it. Finally, perhaps two more weeks, and He said, “it also shows the movement of time.” Again I studied, read, meditated, prayed in the spirit, and again I could not find any “movement” of time! (Note: I did not eat too much pizza. It was daytime and I was not sleeping or dreaming. I heard what sounded like an audible voice - such as others would hear if they were in the room. I realized later, God was only speaking to my spirit man and others would not hear it.)

I kept bugging God about this, telling Him I could not find timing or the movement of time anywhere. Finally, God had great mercy on my slowness, and spoke to me:

“Son, I will ask you three questions about this passage of scripture. Until you can answer these questions correctly, you will never understand this part of John's vision.

1. “Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. In fact, Stephen saw me there. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

As before, when He spoke, I was “in the spirit” and could not answer by thinking of an answer and speaking. However, my spirit man answered, “I cannot answer that question.”

Again He spoke.

2. “John watched a search to find one worthy to open the seals—a search that ended in failure—and that is the reason John wept much: no man was found worthy. However, if you read ahead, you find that I was found worthy to break the seals. Why then was I not found in that first search?”

Again my spirit man answered, “Lord, I cannot answer that.” Then He asked me the third question:

3. “If you notice in chapter 4, the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room. I told the disciples that as soon as I ascended, I would send Him down. Why was the Holy Spirit still in the throne room in chapter 4?”

Again my spirit man said that he could not answer this question. The Lord did not say more at that time. I studied diligently on that vision of the throne room, trying to answer His questions. I could not see any timing. I could not see the movement of time. I could not figure out why Jesus was not at the right hand of the Father. I could not figure out why “no man was found.” I could not figure out why the Holy Spirit was still there. I spent weeks looking and asking God for help. I was frustrated that I could not answer His questions!

Finally after three or four more weeks of study, I heard His voice again. He said, “go and study chapter 12.”

My first reaction was NO! I don't want to turn to another chapter! I want the answers to your questions here in chapters 4 & 5! But I was obedient and turned my bible. When I turned to chapter 12, He spoke and gave me a synopsis of that chapter.

“This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born. The first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John. Count how many times the dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

I counted 32 times. I told Him I counted 32 times. I could see that chapter 12 was certainly about the dragon! Then He said, “now you can go back and study chapters 4 & 5 again” I would guess this interlude on chapter 12 was less than one hour. At first I could not understand why He sent me there. But now I know: it was to get “history lesson” into my brain! You see, the first five verses of chapter 12 was Jesus showing John what the dragon did to attempt to destroy Him when He was born. These events were before John was born, so was certainly a “history lesson” for him!

I turned back to begin meditating again on chapters 4 & 5, but suddenly it was different than before! It one instant of time, I could answer all three of His questions! To this day I am not sure that was a “download” if knowledge or if just having “history lesson” in my mind made the difference. I immediately knew that this was a vision of the past, or another “history lesson” for John: he was seeing into the throne room of the past, before Jesus rose from the dead. Jesus was not seen at the right hand of the Father, because He was still on earth. “no man was found” worthy to break the seals, because Jesus had not yet risen from the dead to become the redeemer worthy to break the seals. And the Holy Spirit was still in the throne room, because Jesus had not yet ascended to send Him down.

Then, in chapter 5, we see the movement of time; another search was started as soon as the first one ended in failure. But in this second search, someone was found! Time was moving, and by this time, Jesus had risen from the dead, and was immediately found worthy. So John got to see, in this vision, the very moment Jesus ascended into the throne room, after telling Mary not to hold onto Him for He had not yet ascended. Then we see, the moment Jesus arrived in the throne room, the Holy Spirit was sent down. This then, Jesus ascension, sets the CONTEXT and timing of the first seal. One cannot find 2000 years between these verses!

For years pretribber have tried to force a rapture upon Rev. 4:1. It is my guess, if we took 100 5th graders that had never been to a church and had them read this verse and tell us what they thought it means, NONE would come up with a rapture. They would all say that this was John being caught up to heaven, for the purpose of being taught things to come. It is truly sloppy exegesis to make this the rapture, and has opened to door wide for massive criticism, and rightly so. This was NEVER intended by the Author, to be the rapture.

Next, it has long been the thought of pretrib that the 70th week starts with the first seal. Again, it is very sloppy exegesis, and again, NOT the intent of the Author, the Holy Spirit. The truth is, the vision of the throne room is the CONTEXT for the seals, and must be understood before the timing of the seals will ever be known. But many ignore this vision of the throne room and claim the first seal to be the antichrist, when there is NOT ONE WORD about him to portray evil. John used the color white 17 times in Revelation, and the other 16 all to portray righteousness or Godliness - yet some can believe that in this ONE instance, white must mean something else.

If we study the vision of the throne room, chapters 4 through 5, and not just skim over it, some things become clear. First, WHY was Jesus not immediately seen at the right hand of the Father? We have a dozen verses telling us that is where He should be. Yet, He was not there. Next, John watched a search for one worthy to break the seals, and saw that search END IN FAILURE - which is why John wept much. This vision was seen around 95 AD. But WHAT was the time portrayed in the vision? Was it past, present, or future? (A vision can be any of these or all mixed together.)

We must determine, WHY this first search ended in failure? Next, we see in Chapter 4 that the Holy Spirit is there in the throne room, when Jesus said that as soon as He ascended He would send Him down. So we have another conundrum. I must emphasize again, unless we understand these things, we can NEVER understand the timing of the seals, for this is the context of the first seal. If we get into Chapter 5, we can begin to find the answers. Another search was begun as soon as the one John watched ended with failure. But in this NEXT search, suddenly someone was found! So what changed? TIME was the only thing that changed, and things happen when time passes. John wept MUCH. This does not mean a little. TIME passed. It is written that Jesus "prevailed" to become worthy. What then did Jesus "prevail" over? Next, John saw a NEW entity in the throne room - one who was NOT there a moment before! And then an interesting thing: the Holy Spirit is SUDDENLY sent down to earth! We KNOW when He was sent down: as soon as Jesus ascended.

Continued...
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#2
The ONLY conclusion one can come to with these clues is the passing of time made a difference! First Jesus was NOT in the throne room, and then He suddenly appeared. First NO MAN was found, and then Jesus was found. First the Holy Spirit was IN the room, and then He was sent down. What is the answer? When John first looked into the throne room, it was the throne room of the PAST, looking back in time to a time just before Jesus rose from the dead. He was NOT at the right hand of the Father, because He left that exalted state to become a man - and He had not yet returned to the Father. From eternities past to eternities future, there has been only one tiny portion of time where the second member of the Godhood was NOT at the right hand of the Father – and that was the short 32 years He was on the earth.

NO MAN WAS FOUND because at this moment in time, Jesus had NOT YET risen from the dead, to be found as the REDEEMER of man. The Holy Spirit was there simply because Jesus had NOT YET ascended to send Him down. But John wept...not a little but MUCH...and during that time of John weeping, Jesus ROSE FROM THE DEAD! He had prevailed over death! He was immediately found worthy to break the seals. Then, after Jesus told Mary not to hold onto Him, He ascended to the Father, and the Holy Spirit was INSTANTLY send down to the church.

This was God's way of showing John and then the readers when it was that Jesus took the book from the Father and began opening the seals. It was as soon as Jesus ascended. God had waited around 4000 years to find someone worthy to take the book and open the seals. Since it is what is in the book that gets Satan kicked off his throne as god of this world, I think God would not waste a second in breaking each seal as soon as possible to get that book opened so that the trumpets could be sounded and finally get to that 7th trumpet so Jesus could get His planet back.

So after all that, WHAT TIME WAS IT? It was around 32 AD when Jesus ascended to the throne. What was the first thing Jesus did? He took the scroll from the Father's hand and began IMMEDIATELY to break seals. Therefore, there can only be one conclusion: the first seal was broken about 32 AD. The first seal was a WHITE horse and rider. White was to represent righteousness. What was the ONE THING on earth in 32 AD that was righteous? Of course, the infant church was righteous. This first seal was and is to represent the church sent out to make disciples of all nations. He rides alone. He conquers and overcomes. Today there is no country anywhere where the Gospel has not been at some time or other. And today, thanks to the internet, the gospel is EVERYWHERE the internet is.

Next we have the Red horse and rider, the black horse and rider and the pale horse and rider. These three ride together. (“And power was given unto THEM...” - these three: note “to kill with the sword” [red horse]; to kill “with hunger” [black horse]; and to kill “with death” [pale horse.]) They are to represent the feeble attempts of the devil to STOP the advance of the church. God LIMITED their theater of operation to 1/4 of the earth. I am convinced, Satan was SURE he could keep the church bottled up in that 1/4 and prove God to be a liar. (This one fourth would certainly be centered over Jerusalem, so would take in all of Europe and Africa.) Well, it is obvious he failed! The Gospel of our Lord is everywhere available – in every nation under the sun, yet there are many that still need to be reached.

This 1/4 of the earth would probably include Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Where have all the famines in our lifetime been? Most have been in Africa. That was the black horse and rider at work. Where did the black plague hit—twice—killing nearly one-third of the population each time? In Europe. That was the pale horse and rider at work: “Death.” Where did the two world wars begin? Again in Europe. That was the red horse and rider at work. Without much doubt, the third world war will begin in this same quarter of the earth.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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#3
Have you read through the thread "Revelation Study" for an answer to this question?
 

lamad

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#4
Have you read through the thread "Revelation Study" for an answer to this question?
Since I heard from the Master, it is for me only a proverbial question for others to ponder. But to answer your question, I have read some of it.
 

lamad

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#5
Have you read through the thread "Revelation Study" for an answer to this question?
I re-read chapters 4 & 5 in the Revelation study. That study seems to leave out the intended purpose of these two chapters: to establish the context of the first seal. I don't believe there is any disagreement between the two.
 

lamad

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#7
no seal has been opened yet. The day of the wrath of God has not yet begun.
Anyone can pull the first seal out of its context and make believe it is future.

In truth it was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book...just as John wrote it.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#8
Anyone can pull the first seal out of its context and make believe it is future.

In truth it was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book...just as John wrote it.
John wrote revelation long after jesus left.

Again, All of the judgments are for the great tribulation. The gret tribulation has yet to occure. Thus they could not have been opened yet.

Also remember, We have saints who have already been given their robes of righteousness in attendance. No one to this day has been resurrected and given their crowns and robes of righteousness.
 

lamad

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#9
John wrote revelation long after jesus left.

Again, All of the judgments are for the great tribulation. The gret tribulation has yet to occure. Thus they could not have been opened yet.

Also remember, We have saints who have already been given their robes of righteousness in attendance. No one to this day has been resurrected and given their crowns and robes of righteousness.
Agreed: John write LONG (around 60 years) after Jesus ascended. So what?

All judgments are for the GT. Who said? And there are other things there besides "judgments."

God had a problem: He wanted to show John the book with 7 seals, but wanted to START while the book was still in the Hand of the Father. But it is 95 AD and Jesus took the book around 32 AD. How would God convey that this part of the vision was history to John? How would YOU do it, if you had to show a vision of the past?

Thanks for answering.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#10
Agreed: John write LONG (around 60 years) after Jesus ascended. So what?

All judgments are for the GT. Who said? And there are other things there besides "judgments."

God had a problem: He wanted to show John the book with 7 seals, but wanted to START while the book was still in the Hand of the Father. But it is 95 AD and Jesus took the book around 32 AD. How would God convey that this part of the vision was history to John? How would YOU do it, if you had to show a vision of the past?

Thanks for answering.
You left to many questions unanswered
I look at world history and 32 ad. I see nothing of significants

If the first seal was opened. It had no impact
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#12
Since I heard from the Master, it is for me only a proverbial question for others to ponder. But to answer your question, I have read some of it.
Greetings Lamad,

The key to understanding the historical chronology of the book of Revelation in relation to God's wrath and which is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about, i.e. "the things which must take place in quickness,' is found in Revelation 1:19 when John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what will take place after the church period.

Throughout chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times. Within those same chapters we do not see the word 'hagios' translated as 'saints' used interchangeably. Likewise, after the end of chapter 3, we never see the word ekklesia/church again. It just disappears from use. The word ekklesia/church never appears in the narrative of God's wrath.

In Revelation 4:1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." The "what must take place after this" is synonymous with the "what will take place later" found in Rev.1:19.

Revelation 4:1 is what I call a 'prophetic allusion' of where the church is gathered and which is why the word ekklesia/church is never seen again and that because the church is caught up in Rev.4:1. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven to end the age and riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen that she will have just received at the wedding. And the next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used again, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog. The hagios/saints is in reference to the great tribulation saints, who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.

This chapter was Me introducing John to the dragon, and in particular, what the dragon would be doing during the last half of the week; but I also chose to show John what the dragon did when I was born.


As I stated earlier, John was told to write 'what he had seen, what is now and would would take place later.' That said, we are still currently living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, i.e. the church period. Therefore, since everything from chapter 4 onward is future, then so is the information in chapter 12 yet future. You are inferring that Jesus is the male child, but He is not, as He does not fit the criteria for being the male child.

First of all, everything in chapter 12, is symbolic:

The woman clothed with the sun, etc. is Not a literal woman, she is not literally pregnant and she does not give literal birth and the male child is not a literal male child.

The red dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven Crowns is not a literal dragon and the stars that his tail draws out of the sky and flings to the earth are not literal stars.

That said, why would anyone assign the literal birth of Jesus as representing the male child?

We know from Genesis 37:9-10 that 'The Woman' symbolically represents the nation Israel. We know this from Joseph's dream when he told his brothers and father that the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down to him. Then Jacob's response gives us the answer when he said, "will your mother, and I and your brothers truly come and bow down to you?"

So God used the same symbolism in Revelation 12 as in Genesis 37 to give us the identity of the woman.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes with Joseph making it twelve.

Since the woman is described with all of these symbols, then she represents the nation Israel as a whole. So, we can see that the woman is not referring to a literal woman and she is not literally pregnant and does not give birth to a literal male child.

The dragon, which is identified as that ancient serpent, called the devil or Satan, is waiting for the woman to give birth so that he can kill the child as soon as it is born. However, the Male Child is caught up to God and His throne before the dragon can devour/kill him.

The word 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up' is the same word used to describe the gathering of the living church when the resurrection takes place, for Paul says "and then we which remain and are still alive, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.' It is the same word used when Paul said that "he was 'caught up' to the third heaven." It is also the same word used where after Philip baptized the Eunuch, the Spirit 'snatch away' Philip so that the Eunuch saw him no more. And one last example, Jesus used it when He said "no one is able 'to snatch' them out of My Father's hand."

harpazo: to seize, catch up, snatch away. properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.

Taking into consideration the meaning of this word and its use in the previous scriptures, as being snatch or caught up,' is this what happened to Jesus? No! Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of the Father. In stark contrast, the Male Child is 'snatched up' to God's throne before the dragon can kill him, ergo, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the Male Child, as well as the fact that the Male Child is not a literal child. So, who is the Male Child?

The 'Male Child' is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000, who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel. These will be those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The woman is the unbelieving nation of Israel, out of whom will come a 144,000 believing Israelites, ergo, gives birth to. There is another clue in Rev.14:4 that hints at the 144,000 being the Male Child which says:

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." That they have not defiled themselves with women, implies that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, the collective name, Male Child.

Revelation 12:1 thru 6 is a summary, where 12:7-17 are detailed. John is not getting a history lesson, because the events of Rev.12 are future events and not past, including the war in heaven with Satan and his angels being cast out and restricted to the earth. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the earth was given to Satan, as revealed in Luke 4:6. The war in heaven takes place in the middle of the seven years and is in fact the result of the 7th trumpet and the 3rd woe:

"Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them!

But woe to the earth and the sea; with great fury the devil has come down to you,

knowing he has only a short time.”

The reason that Satan knows that his time is short, is because he reads the word of God and therefore knows that when he and his angels are cast out of heaven, that he will only have 3 1/2 years (1260 days) left before the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, where at which time he will be cast into the Abyss during the millennial kingdom.

May the Holy Spirit confirm the truth with your spirit of what I have written here.
 

lamad

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#13
You left to many questions unanswered
I look at world history and 32 ad. I see nothing of significants

If the first seal was opened. It had no impact
So ask a question.

Around 32 AD Jesus rose from the dead and became worthy to take the book and open the seals! Then he TOOK the book from the Father, and began opening seals....you don't consider these things significant?
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#14
So ask a question.

Around 32 AD Jesus rose from the dead and became worthy to take the book and open the seals! Then he TOOK the book from the Father, and began opening seals....you don't consider these things significant?
That’s a guess

again, I asked why there are resurrected saints in the room when he opened the seal. How, when no one has been ressurected and given their robes and crowns yet?
 

lamad

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#15
Greetings Lamad,

The key to understanding the historical chronology of the book of Revelation in relation to God's wrath and which is what the majority of the book of Revelation is about, i.e. "the things which must take place in quickness,' is found in Revelation 1:19 when John is told to write:

What you have seen = Everything written from Rev.1:1 thru 1:19

What is now = Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which represents the entire church period

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what will take place after the church period.
I failed to find the idea of "quickness" in any of 26 English translations. What word are you thinking of? I did find the idea of quickness in the word soon in Rev. 1:1. I think the meaning we could get today is, God is saying He is not going to wait another 4000 year to wrap this age up. (He's only going to wait 2000 years!) ;-)

What John has seen could include things outside of this vision - from his past.
Represented by the letters to the seven churches and which represents the entire church period
This is fine, but "the entire church period" in this book is not limited to the messages to the 7 churches.

What will take place later = Everything that takes place after the "what is now," i.e. what will take place after the church period. Sorry, but this is eisegesis, putting your preconceptions upon a verse. Case in point? John is still in the chuch period or time goes from seal 1 to seal 5 and ends with seal 6 which starts the Day of the Lord. Granted, the 70th week FOLLOWS the time of the church.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#16
That’s a guess

again, I asked why there are resurrected saints in the room when he opened the seal. How, when no one has been ressurected and given their robes and crowns yet?
No, sorry, not a guess. It comes right from the written text.

Let's see: who was in the room:
God the FAther who had the book, before Jesus took it.
The four beasts.
The 24 elders.

sorry, not resurrected saints - UNLESS the 24 elders are those whom Jesus raised when HE was raised.
Perhaps I don't understand your point. Why would their be resurrected saints when Jesus opens the first seal? He opened in as soon as He ascended and took the book.
 

lamad

Active member
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#17
Greetings Lamad,

Throughout chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia' translated as 'church' is used 19 times. Within those same chapters we do not see the word 'hagios' translated as 'saints' used interchangeably. Likewise, after the end of chapter 3, we never see the word ekklesia/church again. It just disappears from use. The word ekklesia/church never appears in the narrative of God's wrath.

In Revelation 4:1, John hears a voice that sounds like a trumpet saying "come up here and I will show you what must take place after this." The "what must take place after this" is synonymous with the "what will take place later" found in Rev.1:19.

Revelation 4:1 is what I call a 'prophetic allusion' of where the church is gathered and which is why the word ekklesia/church is never seen again and that because the church is caught up in Rev.4:1. The next time the church is alluded to is in Rev.19:6-8 as the bride in heaven attending the wedding of the Lamb. Then in verse 14, the church is seen following the Lord out of heaven to end the age and riding on white horses and wearing her fine linen that she will have just received at the wedding. And the next time the actual word ekklesia/church is used again, is in Rev.22:16 in the epilog. The hagios/saints is in reference to the great tribulation saints, who become believers after the church has been gathered and during the time of God's wrath.
Throughout chapters 1 thru 3, the word 'ekklesia'
Just because John quit writing about the church does not mean necessarily that the rapture just took place! John wrote what He SAW. Perhaps God only changes subjects: from the messages to the church - to JOHN so He would write and we would have this final book in the bible.

I know, many people think Rev. 4:1 is the rapture. In reality it is JOHN caught up so we would have Revelation. Will the purpose of the church be to receive visions of the future? I think not. A rapture in 4:1 is very poor exegesis and simply does not fit Paul;s epistles. Note carefully, JOHN was a part of the church and He was caught up in 95 AD. So the timing of 4:1 is 95 AD according to tradition. "Saints" make up the church. I won't argue if John calls them "saints." Rather than this method to attempt to ask "when," for the rapture, WHY NOT ask Paul? After all, He received the revelation on the rapture. He, Paul, tells us that the rapture will come just before wrath.
because the church is caught up in Rev.4:1
Sorry. There are still church age martyrs being killed at the 5th seal! Your timing then for the rapture is way off. Paul said it would happen just before wrath and the day of the Lord, and said day is at the 6th seal. This fits perfectly for the martyrs had been asking when their murders would be judged. They were told that judgment must wait for the final church age martyr. Then John starts judgment with the 6th seal.

The rapture then must come between the 5th and 6th seal. It fits with Paul. It is no mistaken then that John saw the raptured church in heaven in the next chapter (7).
 

lamad

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#18
Greetings Lamad,

...

As I stated earlier, John was told to write 'what he had seen, what is now and would would take place later.' That said, we are still currently living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write, i.e. the church period. Therefore, since everything from chapter 4 onward is future, then so is the information in chapter 12 yet future. You are inferring that Jesus is the male child, but He is not, as He does not fit the criteria for being the male child.
Hmmm.

we are still currently living in the "what is now" part of what John was told to write


Most of the church age was future to John in 95 AD. What was "now" to John was Rome, and the church in its infant stage. In Revelation the church age ends when the Day of the Lord begins. That is still future.

since everything from chapter 4 onward is future,
Sorry, but this is myth. It makes good eisegesis. The truth is, the church age lasts to the final church age martyr of the 5th seal. When the Day of the Lord begins, the church age ends.

then so is the information in chapter 12 yet future


If I was only inferring then I will say it out LOUD: JESUS is the one who will rule with a rod of Iron. Jesus is the man child. Of course you are free to believe what you will. However, i can tell you what Jesus, the head of the church and the real Author of Revelation said about this:

Chapter 12 was Me introducing John to the Dragon, and in particular what the Dragon would be doing in the last half of the week. Count how many times the Dragon is mentioned, including pronouns.”

So I counted, carefully: 32 times. I replied, “I see that this chapter is about the dragon. I counted 32 times.” I was not “in the spirit” at this time, because I marked all the mentions of the Dragon and then counted them up. He waited for me.

He spoke again.

“I also chose to show John how the dragon attempted to kill me as a young child. Those first five verses were a ‘history lesson’ for John.”

If you doubt me, go ahead and YOU count the mentions of the dragon - including pronouns. Without a doubt this chapter was God introducing John to the dragon, and especially what the Dragon would be doing during the last half of the week. However, Jesus CHOSE to show John what the dragon did when He was a young boy: Satan used King Herod in an attempt to KILL Jesus.

Jesus started this part of the vision with John seeing the constellation Virgo. The first mention of "woman: is Virgo. God placed Virgo in the sky to represent the virgin giving birth. So at first, The "woman" is the Virgo the virgin that people see in the sky every month. The second mention of "the woman is for Mary crying out in child birth, and it is Jesus being born. Remember, Jesus said this is a "history lesson." The third mention of "the woman" is a subset of Israel: those in Judea fleeing because they have seen the abomination.

In verse 13 the woman is Israel. In verse 14, 15, and 16 the woman is those of Israel who fled.
Note that even the virgin comes from Israel.

If John had used parenthesis marks, I am quite sure verses "12:1 through 12:5 would be marked as a parenthesis.

Again, readers, you are free to believe what you will. I am just telling you what the Author said to me.

He does not fit the criteria for being the male child.
Of course He does, because He IS.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#19
First of all, everything in chapter 12, is symbolic:

The woman clothed with the sun, etc. is Not a literal woman, she is not literally pregnant and she does not give literal birth and the male child is not a literal male child.

The red dragon with seven heads, ten horns and seven Crowns is not a literal dragon and the stars that his tail draws out of the sky and flings to the earth are not literal stars.

That said, why would anyone assign the literal birth of Jesus as representing the male child?

We know from Genesis 37:9-10 that 'The Woman' symbolically represents the nation Israel. We know this from Joseph's dream when he told his brothers and father that the sun, moon and eleven stars came and bowed down to him. Then Jacob's response gives us the answer when he said, "will your mother, and I and your brothers truly come and bow down to you?"

So God used the same symbolism in Revelation 12 as in Genesis 37 to give us the identity of the woman.

Sun = Jacob

Moon = wife/wives

Eleven stars = Eleven of the twelve tribes with Joseph making it twelve.

Since the woman is described with all of these symbols, then she represents the nation Israel as a whole. So, we can see that the woman is not referring to a literal woman and she is not literally pregnant and does not give birth to a literal male child.

The dragon, which is identified as that ancient serpent, called the devil or Satan, is waiting for the woman to give birth so that he can kill the child as soon as it is born. However, the Male Child is caught up to God and His throne before the dragon can devour/kill him.

The word 'harpazo' translated as 'caught up' is the same word used to describe the gathering of the living church when the resurrection takes place, for Paul says "and then we which remain and are still alive, will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.' It is the same word used when Paul said that "he was 'caught up' to the third heaven." It is also the same word used where after Philip baptized the Eunuch, the Spirit 'snatch away' Philip so that the Eunuch saw him no more. And one last example, Jesus used it when He said "no one is able 'to snatch' them out of My Father's hand."

harpazo: to seize, catch up, snatch away. properly, seize by force; snatch up, suddenly and decisively.

Taking into consideration the meaning of this word and its use in the previous scriptures, as being snatch or caught up,' is this what happened to Jesus? No! Jesus was crucified, buried and resurrected and later ascended to the right hand of the Father. In stark contrast, the Male Child is 'snatched up' to God's throne before the dragon can kill him, ergo, Jesus does not fit the criteria as being the Male Child, as well as the fact that the Male Child is not a literal child.
First of all, everything in chapter 12, is symbolic:
Who said? You? John never said it! Is virgo real or symbolic? Ask yourself, can someone see symbolic stars? No, the description of the constellation is REAL and LITERAL, not symbolic.

Was Jesus born of a woman? Was he ever a little child? Then that is literal too. Don't ever make something that makes sense in its literal sense into something symbolic! Everyone would have something different. If something makes sense taken literally, then take it that way. Did you not know? The picture of Virgo with the moon under her feet, clothed with the sun and with a crown of stars is exactly how Virgo would have appeared on Sept. 1 (if I remember right) in 2 BC - according to Stellarium software. I searched from 10 BC to 10 AD and 2 BC fit perfectly. Just saying....

NOw, was Mary a virgin? Check!
Was Jesus ever a small male child? Check!

Did Satan get kicked out of heaven? Check!
Did He take 1/3 of the angels with him? I have always heard this. I tend to believe it.
Sorry, but I am taking this as literal. (the stars are angels)
why would anyone assign the literal birth of Jesus as representing the male child

Because at one time He WAS a male child that Satan tried to murder?

I agree, the woman represents Israel but also the VIRGIN from Israel, and also the subset of Israel that will flee into the wilderness.

As for harpazō It can mean snatched as in quickly and/or by force, but it was used for Philip being caught away and for Paul being taken to heaven - probably when He was stoned. I see no reason why Jesus ascension cannot fit harpazo.

Sorry, but it seems we read these scriptures differently and end up with different conclusions. Since Jesus, the head of the church, taught me His intent in this chapter, I am going to go with Him.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#20
So, who is the Male Child?

The 'Male Child' is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000, who will come out of the twelve tribes of Israel. These will be those who will recognize Jesus as their Messiah. The woman is the unbelieving nation of Israel, out of whom will come a 144,000 believing Israelites, ergo, gives birth to. There is another clue in Rev.14:4 that hints at the 144,000 being the Male Child which says:

"These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they remained virgins." That they have not defiled themselves with women, implies that the 144,000 are all males, ergo, the collective name, Male Child.

Revelation 12:1 thru 6 is a summary, where 12:7-17 are detailed. John is not getting a history lesson, because the events of Rev.12 are future events and not past, including the war in heaven with Satan and his angels being cast out and restricted to the earth. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, the authority of the earth was given to Satan, as revealed in Luke 4:6. The war in heaven takes place in the middle of the seven years and is in fact the result of the 7th trumpet and the 3rd woe:
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: [the constellation virgo]
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. [she was having birth pains.]
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [Draco is another constellation for a dragon. To represent the devil ]
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [the dragon, the devil, was trying to Kill Jesus as soon as He was born. It is a fact of history.]
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. It is a fact Jesus was born, grew up, is destined to rule all nations with a rod of iron, but at the right time was caught up to heaven.

Since all of this happened, why would anyone try to imagine a different meaning? Jesus own words to me: I CHOSE to show what the dragon did when I was a young child..."

I will go with Jesus on this one too. If you choose to imagine some hidden meaning, that is on you.
The 'Male Child' is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000,


The only scriptural connection is they are born out of Israel. There is not one word in scripture connecting these two. Next, at this time in John's narrative, at the midpoint of the week, the 144,000 are about to be caught up to heaven. They didn't "rule with a rod of Iron." John never tells us anything that they "do."

The woman is the unbelieving nation of Israel


Why would the woman obey Jesus and flee into the wilderness if she was 'unbelieving?"

Revelation 12:1 thru 6 is a summary,

No, it is a history lesson: about how Satan used King Herod to attempt to kill Jesus.


because the events of Rev.12 are future events and not past


I'll go with Jesus on this one too. I believe what He said to me. You are partly right: from verse 6 on, it is all future and specifically for the last half of the week.
The war in heaven takes place in the middle of the seven years and is in fact the result of the 7th trumpet and the 3rd woe:


Hallelujah! Something we can agree on! Indeed, at the 7th trumpet I believe Adam's 6000 year lease is up, it ENDS, and suddenly Satan has no more legal hold to anything, so is cast down.