When did (will) Jesus open the first seal in Rev. 6 and what does it represent?

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posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
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#81
So ask a question.

Around 32 AD Jesus rose from the dead and became worthy to take the book and open the seals! Then he TOOK the book from the Father, and began opening seals....you don't consider these things significant?
"became" worthy??

So what are you calling Him 'before'?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
10,549
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#82
Anyone can pull the first seal out of its context and make believe it is future.

In truth it was opened as soon as Jesus ascended and got the book...just as John wrote it.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ is God and God has never been "unworthy"
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
3,076
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#83
"became" worthy??

So what are you calling Him 'before'?
it is because he had to be a man made worthy it is about Christ being born a man and becoming a perfect man to rough suffering temptation and having no sin

is how he became worthy to be our high priest it is required that a priest be a man in order to intercede for man so christ had to live as a man and be tempted as a man in order to qualify to be high priest and intercede for us



“So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered...
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:5-11‬ ‭

There’s a time when Christ laid down his heavenly glory before the world was and came to be humbled as one of us in order to become what we needed that perfect priest that can intercede form our sins because he has none of his own to pay for he paid for ours so his intercession is worthy he went through it and was victorious and sinless now he can help us

“For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.

For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Though Christ began in glory he laid it down and came into the mid hole with us rather than shouting from his throne for us to somehow get out , he dove in with us and gave us a way out as simple as putting our hope and faith in him

“And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do. And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.”
‭‭John‬ ‭17:3-5, 24‬ ‭

an important aspect is that Jesus gave up his heavenly glory in order to save us and was exalted because of that but as he was in. Earth he had become one of us and overcame things we can’t

this made him worthy of being high priests he was never unworthy but the requirement is to be born a son of man to be a priest between God and man Christ is both so the perfect mediator
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,565
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#84
I do not believe that anyone with such a low view of Christ understands what they read.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
3,076
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#85
The Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.

Christ is God and God has never been "unworthy"
brother do you believe the world began two thousand years ago ? Christ was purposes by God to be slain from the foundation but was actually slain about 2000 years ago right ? So there’s what God said from before the beginning and its fulfillment about 2000 years ago when the time had come for the gospel

He wasn’t a worthy man beforehand he had to be born the son of man and be raised to Gods right hand that’s what the lambs image is showing us . A man born of David’s line of Judah’s line had overcome , so now there was a man who was worthy having overcome sin and death and become our mediator

“As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think you are misinterpreting something no one said Christ isn’t worthy at any time , the Bible says no one was found worthy and then the lamb appeared having overcome and was deemed worthy because he had been born a man loved and does and raised up and was taken to Gods throne to be high priest and intercessor on our behalf

Christ wasn’t without temptation he was a Man he simply overcame temptation and didn’t submit to it he was tempted in every way we are while in the flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is all about the lamb overcoming

“And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭

from an earthly perspective that sounds a bit like Jesus being seated at the right hand of God and sending the Holy Spirit into all the earth after he went into heaven.

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peters saying Jesus was raised up and exalted to sit on the throne and received the promise of the Holy Spirit and has now sent it into the earth . Revelation is saying “ don’t weep Jesus has overcome he’s on the throne and has sent forth the Holy Spirit into the earth “

I’m not sure I meant to suggest Jesus is unworthy , more so that I’m all creation he’s the only one whom is worthy
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,128
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#86
scripture says he was searching for someone on earth and found no
One though is the thing why wouldn’t I just accept that he was searching for a man on earth worthy and found none ,?
The scripture actually says:

"But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth was able to open the scroll or look inside it."

In heaven = men and angels

On earth = any of the mortal inhabitants on the earth

Under the earth = those spirits in Hades
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#87
How did I pull anything out of context. The seals are in chronological order. They have not yet taken place. Nothing I have said has been theory. The seals are the beginning of God's wrath, which the church is not appointed to suffer, which is what you are not understanding. And that because you don't understand that the announcement of wrath includes the previous seals and the fact that the Lamb/Jesus is the One opening them.

This is completely false and has nothing to do with the church. These are seals of wrath! The rider on the white horse is symbolically representing the antichrist, not the church. This is all assumption on your part.

These events have not yet take place, but will once the church has been gathered from the earth. As I said previously, there has been no time where complete peace has been taken from the earth so that a fourth of the population is killed. It has nothing to do with "their theater of operation." Just as the scripture says, death and hades will be given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill by sword, by famine, by plague, and by the beasts of the earth. It doesn't say maybe kill a fourth of the earth, but a fourth (25%) is how many are going to die and that in a short period of time.



More assumptions! Aren't you the one who keeps talking about sticking to what is written? Yet, you assumed everything above.

I say again, the seals are future events of wrath. They take place after the church period and during the "what must take place later" portion of what John was told to write. Currently, we are still in "what is now" portion" which is the church period and which will end once the Lord comes for His church. Everything from Rev.4:1 onward belongs to the "what will take place later" portion of what John was told to write.
How did I pull anything out of context. The seals are in chronological order. They have not yet taken place. Nothing I have said has been theory.
If this wasn't so sad, it would be funny. The truth is, when someone says the seals have not yet taken place, they have already been pulled the seals out of context. What you are saying is, you simple don't know the context of the first seals. You simply don't believe John is talking about the real Jesus raising from the dead, then the real Jesus ascending into heaven and then the real Jesus sending the Holy Spirit down. You don't understand what John is showing us - that when the real Jesus rose from the dead, then ascended, then sent the Holy Spirit down, it was RIGHT THEN, 32 AD, that He took the book and opened the first seal. That is what is written, but you just don't believe it.

But go ahead anyway: PULL that first seal out of its ascension context and imagine it is for something still in our future. You will still be mistaken the next time you post.

Another truth: OF COURSE this is your theory! You just admitted to it! I know, you imagine it is truth. I know it is a false theory. It does not fit the text.

Do this: find ONE WORD in the first seal description that even hints at wrath.

the church is not appointed to suffer, which is what you are not understanding
I understand the truth: Paul said it: God is not setting any appointments for us with His wrath. In context, Paul is saying WE get caught up, but THEY get the sudden destruction start of God's wrath which is the Day of the Lord. The rapture is JUST BEFORE wrath, but this wrath starts at the 6th seal. It is silly to imagine God has wrath towards his martyrs at the 5th seal. This I am sure of: if the DAY started with the first seal, John would have told us. What he did tell us is it starts at the 6th seal.

What you fail to understand is if you in error say that the first seal is the Antichrist Beast - or even the man of sin - Then you are also saying that God will limit him to 1/4th the earth. We KNOW this cannot be truth, for in another verse God said: "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. " This is the truth.

God has limited Satan to 1/4 of the earth to try and stop the gospel, but that is during the church age.

This is completely false and has nothing to do with the church. These are seals of wrath! The rider on the white horse is symbolically representing the antichrist, not the church. This is all assumption on your part.
This is just another part of your disagreement with John. Why don't you BELIEVE John?

Rev 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


These verses portray Jesus' ascension and His sending down the Holy Spirit. If your theory was true, then this will happen again some time in the future! That is just silly. It happened around 32 AD - but you don't seem to believe John. My friend, that is on you. The truth is, Jesus got the book and opened the first seal shortly after He ascended - exactly as John has shown it.

YOU say they are seals of wrath: can you FIND the word wrath anywhere in the first 5 seals? You KNOW you can't, yet somehow you imagine what is not written. Again, that is on you. (I will admit that Satan has always had wrath towards the church, for He hated Jesus and so hates the church - but you are speaking of God's wrath.)

so that a fourth of the population is killed. It has nothing to do with "their theater of operation."
It seems you just don't read these scriptures very well. Let's look together:

AMP
So I looked, and behold, an ashen (pale greenish gray) horse [like a corpse, representing death and pestilence]; and its rider’s name was Death; and Hades (the realm of the dead) was following with him. They were given authority and power over a fourth part of the earth, to kill with the sword and with famine and with plague (pestilence, disease) and by the wild beasts of the earth.

BRG And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth
CSB They were given authority over a fourth of the earth

Barnes Notes: "Over the fourth part of the earth - That is, of the Roman world. It is not absolutely necessary to understand this as extending over precisely a fourth part of the world. "

Gill's Commentary: "over the fourth part of the earth; not of the church, which is never called the earth in this book, but is distinguished from it, Revelation 12:16; nor the land of Judea, but the Roman empire; some understand it of Europe, the fourth part of the world: "

Adam Clarke Commentary: "Over the fourth part of the earth - One fourth of mankind was to feel the desolating effects of this seal. "

Darby's Commentary: "I have to notice that in the full plagues of Revelation 6:8 (NAS) Revelation 6:8 the whole Roman earth is not included. It is a fourth, not a third. "

Knolly's Commentary: " in the fourth part of the habitable earth; that is Europe. "

Smith's Commentary: "
Thus in a fourth part of the earth men will die by the sword, by famine, by pestilence, and by ravenous beasts of the earth.

It has been generally recognised that these first four judgments correspond to those which the Lord speaks of as "the beginning of sorrows." When telling His disciples of the future judgments coming upon the prophetic earth, He speaks first of "wars and rumours of wars," then of internecine warfare- "nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom;" thirdly, the Lord foretells famines, and finally pestilence..."

I did not mean to hit post. Notice how John writes it if he is speaking of people dying:

Re. 9:15 " to slay the third part of men. "

This proves without a shadow of doubt that John is talking about God LIMITING the land area Satan is allowed to work in to stop the church: only 1/4th of the earth
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#88
Searching for someone who is worthy to open the scroll would be futile before you stared. Because first of all, no man lived a life without sin and therefore would not be able to shed his blood to pay the penalty for sins. But lamad made the search into literal one, as thought everyone was looking high and low to find someone. The search is rhetorical and meant to highlight the Lamb.

When the Lord first called me, which was at 14 years old, He immediately drew me to the book of Revelation and end-time events, which I have continued to study since that time. Therefore, I am zealous for the truth and accuracy of this book and end-time events. So when I see people come in here with their fantasies, I contend for the truth. All Lamad has done so far, is butcher the book of Revelation. I have nothing against him personally, but only what he is teaching.
Of course I could say the same thing. The proper way to proceed is show us the correct reading of a scripture: the author's intent in a scripture. We may then disagree on the meaning of a certain scripture.
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#89
scripture says he was searching for someone on earth and found no
One though is the thing why wouldn’t I just accept that he was searching for a man on earth worthy and found none ,?


The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.

They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.”
‭‭Psalm‬ ‭14:2-4‬ ‭

That he was seeking for an intercessor and because he found none he became one himself for our salvstion ?
“And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor:

therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him. For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak.

So shall they fear the name of the Lord from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun. When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him. And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord. ( “the time has come repent ye and believe the gospel “)

As for me, this is my covenant with them, saith the Lord; My spirit that is upon thee, and my words which I have put in thy mouth, shall not depart out of thy mouth, nor out of the mouth of thy seed, nor out of the mouth of thy seed's seed, saith the Lord, from henceforth and for ever.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭59:16-17, 19-


You know what I mean ? Why wouldn’t I just believe that since it’s relatively simply stated and then understand that’s all testifying of the gospel of Jesus Christ ? As revelation is offering us further understanding of also ?

johns weeping because no one is found
But he’s told not to weep because now the lamb appears and has overcome so johns weeping isn’t necassary because Christ was born lived and died and now was seated on the throne having authored salvation for Mankind both of the tribes of Israel and all nations through the gospel.

I believe God looks into the earth and searches mankind constantly ot actually says that as well which explains why the creatures with all those eyes that see everything yet are close around the throne are sent into the earth to observe everything in the north south east and west in zechariah

God observes us from heaven he searches for and always has since the fall Intercessors and as time went on none were left and no more were going to be born so God gave the promise of Christ and the gospel his plan from the start it had to be fulfilled which is what the unfolding story in scripture is
Those large print scriptures are fine in their place, but they don't fit this case. Written on the outside of the book - without a doubt - is WHO would be worthy. Reading again we see that it had to be "the Redeemer." It had to someone who "prevailed" over death to become the Redeemer.

God had a purpose in showing the throne room with the main character - the Lord Jesus Christ - MISSING - not seen. The purpose continued with the Holy Spirit there when in 95 AD we would expect Him to be already sent down. The purpose continued with this search that ended in failure. OF COURSE God could have skipped that search and just showed John the next search that FOUND Jesus. Personally I think this is showing us that a search for one worthy had been ONGOING - perhaps since Adam's fall. It is only a guess. What then was God's purpose in all this? To show us the context (think timing) of the first seal. We truly can believe that every word in this book is exactly as God wanted it.
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#90
Quote=lamad] Since the gospel started in Jerusalem, we could guess that the 1/4 of the earth would be centered on Jerusalem.
More assumptions! Aren't you the one who keeps talking about sticking to what is written? Yet, you assumed everything above.
[/QUOTE]
It is absolute fact that for the most part, World Wars 1 & 2 STARTED in Europe. Keep in mind, I did not write this: GOD had John write it: " They were given authority and power over a fourth part of the earth " Power to do what? To kill with the sword (The red horse and rider) to kill with hunger (the black horse and rider) and with death (the pale horse and rider) and with wild animals. There is NOT ONE WORD telling us how many were or will be killed.

When I read "power to kill with the Sword, " I think of WAR. You are free to imagine this is future, just as I am free to believe it is ongoing with the church age. What did Jesus say?

Matthew 24
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.


What Jesus said here parallels seals 2, 3 and 4. Seal 2 is WAR, seal 3 is FAMINE, and seal 4 is death by pestilence.
What so many MISS here: in verse 6 Jesus said, "the end is not yet"

Jesus is telling us that all these things, wars, famines, pestilences, and earthquake are CHURCH AGE. You are trying to force them into our future but Jesus is telling you "the end is not yet."

Notice that verse 7 starts with the pronoun "for" tying all these things right back to "the end is not yet."

Summary: you are saying future, Jesus is saying that He is not talking about the end yet, but rather the church age.

It is good to study Revelation. God has promised a blessing. It is better to study and understand it.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
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#91
[re: Rev1:19c] I failed to find the idea of "quickness" in any of 26 English translations. What word are you thinking of? I did find the idea of quickness in the word soon in Rev. 1:1.
Consider a post I made on this, some time back:

[quoting old post]

[...] the correspondence among the following three verses (informing of the "WHEN" in relation to what other things, and the "HOW LONG"/"DURATION" of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book):

*1)--Revelation 1:1a -

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to [/must] take place in quickness [noun]."


2)--Revelation 1:19c -

"Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will [mello-'are sure/certain to'] happen after these [things]."


3)--Revelation 4:1 -

"After these things [after 'the things WHICH ARE' in chpts 2-3 (which are NOT said to be what must take place "in quickness [noun]," by contrast)] I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, [or, the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet (back in chpt 1:10-11, where Jesus had referred to Himself as "the FIRST and the LAST") was (now) saying,] "Come up here, and I will show to you what it behooves to [/must] take place after these things."


[I think the better translation of 4:1 is: "and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying,..." IOW, "the first voice that I heard like a trumpet [back in 1:10-11] was [now] speaking with me, saying, [this next/other/distinct thing]..."]


____________

Hope that makes sense, and that you can see the correlations amongst these three verses, above.

I believe the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Jesus was "TO SHEW UNTO" was indeed "SHEW[N]" (to John, to record) from 4:1 forward... and that it corresponds with both Lk18:8's "AVENGE in quickness [noun]" (like in 2Th1:7-8 "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON...") and Rom16:20's "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]," where all three of *these* references are speaking of the future "7-yr Trib" time-period / spans-of-time [distinct locations for those being addressed in each of those other two passages, but running concurrently]
 

lamad

Active member
Apr 14, 2021
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#92
John 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

I am a sheep and I hear His voice. It is scripture. The fact that you don't believe what Jesus said to me shows that your beliefs are off from the plumb line of scripture. You can scoff and John weeping much, but it is a fact of scripture.
You didn't see through anything! Everything that I teach is according to scripture. And what does the the "sheep hear My voice" have to do with Revelation?

You weren't told these things by God, because they do not match His word. The counting of how many times the dragon is mentioned as no bearing on anything. Neither does John's weeping have some secret meaning. I wish that you people would leave Revelation alone!

I can assure that no one was searching through heaven, on the earth or under the earth to find someone. Everyone in heaven would have known that no man would be worthy to open the book, because no one else had righteous blood to shed. There's only one who was slain, shedding His righteous blood for the sins of mankind, which is the reason that He is able to open the scroll, as revealed in Rev. 5:9.

Well, when are you going to start doing that? Because up until now, you have done nothing of the kind.

Now, I have nothing against you personally, but I am offended by this junk that you are proclaiming.

Sure John wept and that's all that it means. There is no secret meaning behind it. But you have made one, just as you did by counting how many times the dragon is mentioned.[/QUOTE]

Everything that I teach is according to scripture. And what does the the "sheep hear My voice" have to do with Revelation?
Everyone that writes on these forums declares what they write is according to scripture! I have already proven you mistaken in your claim. Case in point?

Rev 5:
6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne.


You are trying to teach us that verse 7 (and 6:1) is sometime in our future. John is very clear that it is just after Jesus sent the Holy Spirit down.

You seem to think I am lying when I say Jesus Christ, the head of the church spoke to me. I can only guess because He has never spoken to you. I can assure you, I have heard His voice many times in my life, and much as He was teaching me Revelation.

I well understand, if your belief system is NOT according to the scripture but you think it is, then no matter who showed you that your beliefs were off, you would reject them. I have discovered this fits most people on these forums. In many cases I have a direct revelation from Jesus Christ and then I have your opinion and they DIFFER. I am not sorry that I choose HIS words over yours.

You weren't told these things by God, because they do not match His word.
We both know the reason you say such things is because what I present is not what you believe. The truth is, I post scripture but you don't believe it. Case in point:

2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.


I have written over and over that Jesus was NOT SEEN in this part of the vision.
I have also written the exact question Jesus asked me about these verses:

“Why did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father in chapter four? I ascended back into heaven years before John saw this vision. There are over a dozen verses showing that I went to be at the right hand of the Father. Why then did John not immediately see Me at the right hand of the Father?”

If this is all false, prove it with scripture rightly divided and understood. SHOW US that the voice that spoke to me lied - that Jesus WAS there. If what I write does not match the Word, they SHOW US WHERE I missed it. Don't use theory or imagination.

The counting of how many times the dragon is mentioned as no bearing on anything.
On the contrary, it shows just what Jesus spoke: that chapter 12 was God introducing John to the Dragon - mentioned 32 times in this chapter. I understand, for people that use imagination, such a thing as counting would be beneath them. Case in point: John used "white" 17 times in Revelation. Have you looked each one up to see if any of them could possibly mean deception or evil? If you had, you could not write what you write.

I can assure that no one was searching through heaven, on the earth or under the earth to find someone.
You are telling us all that you simply don't believe John.

5:2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof?

Some believe this verse. Others come up with some spiritual meaning. Others say it is symbology. I say, since someone was finally found, then someone was looking. ("no man was found")

I am going to go with what is written by John. I cannot believe what is written by you since they differ.

Well, when are you going to start doing that? Because up until now, you have done nothing of the kind.
Case in point: who just said "no one was searching through heaven" and who present a verse that showed your error?

I am offended by this junk that you are proclaiming.
You are offended by Scripture that you don't believe. See how strong preconceptions can be? They can totally block truth. In short, you THINK you know, but in fact you don't. You ave human reasoning and imagination.

So you don't KNOW why John wept? I guess you don't know why God put it in the book either.
 

lamad

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#93
Consider a post I made on this, some time back:

[quoting old post]

[...] the correspondence among the following three verses (informing of the "WHEN" in relation to what other things, and the "HOW LONG"/"DURATION" of the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book):

*1)--Revelation 1:1a -

"The revelation of Jesus Christ, WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [/unto Jesus] to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to [/must] take place in quickness [noun]."


2)--Revelation 1:19c -

"Therefore write down the things you have seen, and the things that are, and the things that will [mello-'are sure/certain to'] happen after these [things]."


3)--Revelation 4:1 -

"After these things [after 'the things WHICH ARE' in chpts 2-3 (which are NOT said to be what must take place "in quickness [noun]," by contrast)] I looked, and behold, a door was standing open in heaven, and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying, [or, the voice I had previously heard speak to me like a trumpet (back in chpt 1:10-11, where Jesus had referred to Himself as "the FIRST and the LAST") was (now) saying,] "Come up here, and I will show to you what it behooves to [/must] take place after these things."


[I think the better translation of 4:1 is: "and the first voice that I heard like a trumpet was speaking with me, saying,..." IOW, "the first voice that I heard like a trumpet [back in 1:10-11] was [now] speaking with me, saying, [this next/other/distinct thing]..."]


____________

Hope that makes sense, and that you can see the correlations amongst these three verses, above.

I believe the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" time-period that Jesus was "TO SHEW UNTO" was indeed "SHEW[N]" (to John, to record) from 4:1 forward... and that it corresponds with both Lk18:8's "AVENGE in quickness [noun]" (like in 2Th1:7-8 "INFLICTING VENGEANCE ON...") and Rom16:20's "shall CRUSH Satan UNDER YOUR FEET in quickness [noun]," where all three of *these* references are speaking of the future "7-yr Trib" time-period / spans-of-time [distinct locations for those being addressed in each of those other two passages, but running concurrently]
I would have to disagree about from 4:1 on. The church age has not been "quickness." The 70th week? Yes, God will accomplish MUCH in these 7 years.

Question: how much "weight" do you put on Jesus's words, "the end is not yet" in Matthew 24?
(Example: no weight at all - you ignore them or a lot of weight, you believe and understand them)

P.S. Glad you joined in again! ;-)
 

posthuman

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#94
what makes someone worthy to open this scroll in Revelation 6?
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#95
I would have to disagree about from 4:1 on. The church age has not been "quickness." The 70th week? Yes, God will accomplish MUCH in these 7 years.
Right.

I wasn't making the point that "the church age" takes place "in quickness," but that the future "7-yr trib" DOES, and that is what 1:1b/1:19c/4:1 is speaking about.



"TO SHEW UNTO" (1:1) is what is being "I WILL SHEW" in 4:1 (onward), i.e. the "future" trib years [7], which are "the things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]" (not "the things which are" in chpts 2-3)
 

posthuman

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#96
brother do you believe the world began two thousand years ago ? Christ was purposes by God to be slain from the foundation but was actually slain about 2000 years ago right ? So there’s what God said from before the beginning and its fulfillment about 2000 years ago when the time had come for the gospel

He wasn’t a worthy man beforehand he had to be born the son of man and be raised to Gods right hand that’s what the lambs image is showing us . A man born of David’s line of Judah’s line had overcome , so now there was a man who was worthy having overcome sin and death and become our mediator

“As he saith also in another place, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:6-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I think you are misinterpreting something no one said Christ isn’t worthy at any time , the Bible says no one was found worthy and then the lamb appeared having overcome and was deemed worthy because he had been born a man loved and does and raised up and was taken to Gods throne to be high priest and intercessor on our behalf

Christ wasn’t without temptation he was a Man he simply overcame temptation and didn’t submit to it he was tempted in every way we are while in the flesh

“Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.

For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭4:14-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This is all about the lamb overcoming

“And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭5:3-6‬ ‭

from an earthly perspective that sounds a bit like Jesus being seated at the right hand of God and sending the Holy Spirit into all the earth after he went into heaven.

“This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peters saying Jesus was raised up and exalted to sit on the throne and received the promise of the Holy Spirit and has now sent it into the earth . Revelation is saying “ don’t weep Jesus has overcome he’s on the throne and has sent forth the Holy Spirit into the earth “

I’m not sure I meant to suggest Jesus is unworthy , more so that I’m all creation he’s the only one whom is worthy
this isn't about God-manifest-in-the-flesh, the Creator and Sustainer of time itself, being unworthy for some period of time.

this is about God hiding Himself until He reveals Himself at the perfect time of His own choosing.


when did the angels learn that He is triune?
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#97
what makes someone worthy to open this scroll in Revelation 6?
Reading ahead to what is said about Jesus:
" Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood "

NOT said but to be understood: He had to prevail over death - rise from the dead.
 

lamad

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Apr 14, 2021
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#98
this isn't about God-manifest-in-the-flesh, the Creator and Sustainer of time itself, being unworthy for some period of time.

this is about God hiding Himself until He reveals Himself at the perfect time of His own choosing.


when did the angels learn that He is triune?
I disagree: there was a definite time that Jesus was NOT FOUND WORTHY to open the seals.
 

lamad

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#99
Right.

I wasn't making the point that "the church age" takes place "in quickness," but that the future "7-yr trib" DOES, and that is what 1:1b/1:19c/4:1 is speaking about.



"TO SHEW UNTO" (1:1) is what is being "I WILL SHEW" in 4:1 (onward), i.e. the "future" trib years [7], which are "the things which must come to pass in quickness [noun]" (not "the things which are" in chpts 2-3)
: -)))) Then we AGREE!
 

posthuman

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What you fail to understand is if you in error say that the first seal is the Antichrist Beast - or even the man of sin - Then you are also saying that God will limit him to 1/4th the earth. We KNOW this cannot be truth, for in another verse God said: "power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. " This is the truth.
I am told that the four horsemen are four aspects/stages of the man of sin/son of perdition/antichrist.