Where is the balance?

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pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#1
As I have been studying the OT, and joining it with what I have studied in the Nt I am trying to understand the balence of God Our Fathers wrath and his mercy.
I see in the OT how God destroyed and called His people to destroy all that is evil many times. But I also see many times where He allowed many to continue despite their many severe sins against him.
Then there were some destroyed for small sins.
Then we look to the NT and mercy, Jesus, who suffered the cross for us.
But we also see revelations.
I am wondering about how it is decided, how it is understood when to condem and when mercy applies, how to understand how God Our Father wants us to act in this.
I have found some scripture in this, and have gleened some understanding. But I want to read your understanding on this and how we are to act, witness in our lives to glorify God Our Father.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#2
As I have been studying the OT, and joining it with what I have studied in the Nt I am trying to understand the balence of God Our Fathers wrath and his mercy.
I see in the OT how God destroyed and called His people to destroy all that is evil many times. But I also see many times where He allowed many to continue despite their many severe sins against him.
Then there were some destroyed for small sins.
Then we look to the NT and mercy, Jesus, who suffered the cross for us.
But we also see revelations.
I am wondering about how it is decided, how it is understood when to condem and when mercy applies, how to understand how God Our Father wants us to act in this.
I have found some scripture in this, and have gleened some understanding. But I want to read your understanding on this and how we are to act, witness in our lives to glorify God Our Father.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles

Hi Pickles,

Right from the start we see judgment and mercy.. The Fall then mercy as they could live within the mercy here we see the first hint of the coming gospel.

Ever growing wickedness, God is going to blot out mankind, However He has already promised that there will be a gospel (I think its name from memory is protoeuangelion 'pre - gospel'), so God is also a Faithful God (Steadfast) He uses Noah to carry on, the flood comes and goes and grace abounds even though 'man is continually evil in his heart' (Gen 6 & 8). It is here we find a covenant with Noah.. the sign of which is the Rainbow... but if you read it again, who in this covenant takes the obligations?

This brings us to Nimrod and the tower of Babel, here we see Judgment.. but knowhere is there any grace.. the people are dispersed and confused in language.

Abraham enters the stage, God shows His merciful grace through this man. Through the covenant with Abraham (Gen 12:1-3; 15) in Chapter 17 we see the sign of the Covenant. Chapters 12,15 &17 are significant, again who takes on the obligations of this promissory covenant? Chapter 17 also shows that this is an EVERLASTING covenant. If you want to the best way to see this is to read:

Gen12:1-3, Gen15, Gen17:1-14, John 8:31-59 (the whole of ch8 preferably), Gal 3 &4. This will only take 20 mins max, and it is well worth reading them one after the other, it helps make sense of the everlasting promise to Abraham and the covenant of promise compared to the covenant of Law (Sinai).

Part of the promise was a son this came through Isaac, remember this was long before Abraham, read Gen 3:15 (proto euangelion). so God's Plan of the gospel is full steam ahead. you can see this pattern onwards. God's choice of seed (Gen 3:15 and promise to Abraham) will prevail no matter how satan tries otherwise. All throughout the OT we see God saying... because I have remembered you Father Abraham etc .. so it is very important to see this, and you will many times throughout the OT.

As God promised previoulsy to Abraham he would be the Father of a Nation, so Israel is born. (the enslavement was foretold already to Abraham by God from memory Gen 17 if not 15). From now on grace pertains to Israel. they rebel and moan, God sends judgment, but it follows with grace..because He remembers His promise/covenant with Abraham.

Its mid afternoon here just going out I'll type a quick overview of the rest if you want later... its amazing to see How God's grace and mercy works for His people.

Phil
 
K

karuna

Guest
#3
I am wondering about how it is decided, how it is understood when to condem and when mercy applies, how to understand how God Our Father wants us to act in this. I have found some scripture in this, and have gleened some understanding.
I don't think Jesus wanted us to find a balance between condemnation and mercy:

Matthew5 said:
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.
Matthew6 said:
For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.
Matthew18 said:
Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus answered, "I tell you, not seven times, but seventy-seven times.
Mark11 said:
But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also.
Luke6 said:
If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full. But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. Be merciful, just as your Father is merciful.
Luke6 said:
Do not judge, and you will not be judged. Do not condemn, and you will not be condemned. Forgive, and you will be forgiven.
Our place is is to wait for God, I believe:

Romans12 said:
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#4
I think we can condemn, killing I think we can condemn child molesters and the list goes on. However I think we should have mercy on all.

What I was showing above is that God's Judgment and grace where all to do with His plan and purpose for His creation from 'Genesis to Revelation'. and that's what we see in Scripture. Condemnation and Judgment awaits everyone who does not believe. infact already condemned.

The same God in the OT is the same God in the NT, the difference, and I believe this is where we go totally of in the wrong direction, is that God's mercy and grace was on His Children whom He chose (Israel), Now it is still on His children, however, Isreal has been widened in scope to allow the inclusion of the gentiles, ingrafting the wild branches into the vine, God's promises necessitated this, through the Christ, who could fulfill where Israel failed, to bring life to all peoples and not just the Jews. Jesus Christ is the blessing to all Nations that Israel where not.

This is where the big difference is between the OT and the NT, God has not changed one bit, He is still steadfast to all that He has said and done and accomplished. the big difference is the time inbetween God's grace (Christ) and the terrible Judgment to come, He has postponed this Judgment, but the fool says it will not happen. and we see once this last judgment is complete, we will be in His grace for eternity.

I think we do our selves an injustice by thinking God is now a God of Love and He wasn't before or that He somehow has changed. God is a God of Love, but His righteous Justice will be dealt with, and His wrath will pour out, and I think it will be worse than what we read in the OT.

How that applies to us is that we love Him back, we obey Him, and walk in His grace and warn others of wrath to come if they do not accept the risen Lord, Jesus Christ.


As far as us condemning and showing mercy I have shown what I think in my first sentence.

Phil
 
Feb 27, 2007
3,179
17
0
#5
I was the victim of a child molestor. I thank the Lord that he showed me my offender as He see's him. A pitiful little child being abused himself. I now Im able to look at him not with condemnation but with the love of the Lord, the pity for a child so hurt and genuine forgiveness for the man he became because of this. The Lord who would show me this is one who loves his children, child molestors included.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#6
What do we do with Jesus' words, then, telling us not to condemn or judge? Was he joking? I don't get the punchline.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#7
Ok what do we do with criminals?
 
K

karuna

Guest
#8
Leave them to the secular government and follow the directions of our Lord?
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#9
I know what you are saying, but we vote the Governments in who pass the laws. I understand what imoss is saying, and it is a glorious and wonderful thing that she has forgiven her abuser, and it is a great example to all of us on here to forgive people who have wronged us. However, revenge belongs to the Lord as we know, what was Jesus talking about when saying not to judge anyone or condemn anyone they way the Pharisees did?

Not being a victim I condemn the acts of all those who child molest, who murder. I also would pray for them and show them the mercy Christ would, and share the gospel with them. but I still condemn their actions. but how far do we go? secular governments are in place under God's control, we vote them in. do you not want justice? would you want justice if someone shot you for no reason or maybe even for a reason? with justice there has to be judging.

Phil
 
K

karuna

Guest
#10
I know what you are saying, but we vote the Governments in who pass the laws.
We are free to put people in power, but we should acknowledge that by doing so we're putting them at a spiritual risk. If they accept the appointment and use it to judge others, then they will be judged accordingly. It's a terrible burden for the person we put into office:

Luke 12:48 said:
from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
Personally, I think it's best for Christians to avoid jobs and situations that might force them to exercise authority over others. Of course, we may have to occasionally render to Caesar (as in jury duty), but we don't have to be in a position to judge. That is a choice we make and we know the consequences.

However, revenge belongs to the Lord as we know, what was Jesus talking about when saying not to judge anyone or condemn anyone they way the Pharisees did?
In the Luke passage he wasn't talking to the Pharisees:

Luke 6:17 said:
A large crowd of his disciples was there and a great number of people from all over Judea, from Jerusalem, and from the coast of Tyre and Sidon.
When he said "don't judge" and "don't condemn," they would have understood it in a straightforward manner. The words were common and plain.

do you not want justice?
The question is, though, whose? What men call justice rarely is:

Psalm 58 said:
Do you rulers indeed speak justly?
Do you judge uprightly among men?
No, in your heart you devise injustice,
and your hands mete out violence on the earth.
It is, I believe, our fault that we're forced to put men into the position of judgment. When the people pressed Samuel to ask God for a king, Samuel warned them that the king would exploit them, but the people still wanted a king. In our rush for earthly justice, we make the same request. If we want earthly justice now, it comes with a heavy cost.

would you want justice if someone shot you for no reason or maybe even for a reason?
I would be in a dark place if I allowed myself to be governed by what I wanted. Fortunately, Jesus has expressed God's will concerning justice. It is our job to align ourself with it.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
5,900
126
0
#11
Mmmmmm, I think you are wrong, but that's how debate goes. I think I will still condemn the acts of child molester, murderers etc, and still pray for them and show them mercy where needed. the greatest mercy is to show them the love of Christ. But condemnation of the act I will still do.

I certainly do not agree with you that we put those in government/judges in great Spiritual peril... If they have not accepted Christ already they are in great peril, if they have accepted Christ we pray that they do their Job focused on Christ, whether it be a Prime Minister, President, A judge, Jury, Police. they will do their duty in Justice.

Iif you believe this is wrong then your idea of society would be lawless anarchy, where no one condemns no one judges of course there would be no need for law or criminal courts or a measure of Truth for in that instance all truth would be equally truth (of course that is a post modern mindset already). we could not judge anyone, for that is wrong, so they in can do whatever they please. this ideal is wrong.


Final justice is God's.

Phil
 
May 21, 2009
3,955
16
0
#12
Its all up to God. The best thing you can do is say I don't understand many things of God and leave it there. You can't understand all the things of God. Why should you. We as people want a logical answer for everything. God will just do as He pleases. We want to rationalize everything so we can put oh God did this because; into this box that fits how our minds think. God is God and His ways are not our ways. So its perfectly human for you to be thinking as you are. And we as humans will not understand many things of God. That is normal.
 
K

karuna

Guest
#13
they will do their duty in Justice.
We hope they will do their duty. Many faithful men fall when tempted with powers they didn't have before.

If you believe this is wrong then your idea of society would be lawless anarchy.
Christians should not plan on ruling the world, since our Father's kingdom is not primarily an earthly system of government. Jesus made this clear. However, this doesn't mean anarchy. The world will always be looking for a system to replace God. With or without us, there will always be laws.

I think we can advise those who make the laws, like the prophets did, but I still think we're treading dangerous waters.

there would be no need for <...> a measure of Truth for in that instance all truth would be equally truth
You can find no other use for a measure of truth than to judge? Even if I never judged another person, I would still need to know how to live my life and how to advise those who ask me where my hope is.

Even if I don't judge my neighbor, I still will be judged.

we could not judge anyone, for that is wrong, so they in can do whatever they please. this ideal is wrong.
Whether or not I judge someone, they can and will be judged. I'm just not the one to do it. Let someone else set himself up as an earthly judge. I am content to wait for my Father's judgment.
 

VW

Banned
Dec 22, 2009
4,579
9
0
#14
As I have been studying the OT, and joining it with what I have studied in the Nt I am trying to understand the balence of God Our Fathers wrath and his mercy.
I see in the OT how God destroyed and called His people to destroy all that is evil many times. But I also see many times where He allowed many to continue despite their many severe sins against him.
Then there were some destroyed for small sins.
Then we look to the NT and mercy, Jesus, who suffered the cross for us.
But we also see revelations.
I am wondering about how it is decided, how it is understood when to condem and when mercy applies, how to understand how God Our Father wants us to act in this.
I have found some scripture in this, and have gleened some understanding. But I want to read your understanding on this and how we are to act, witness in our lives to glorify God Our Father.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
When we seek His face, and find the vision of His face, these questions fly away. God is perfect. I can't explain it any better than that. We look for balance, and justice, and fairness, but these things do not exist in this world, only in a place in our minds. And when we see His justice, our ideas of justice are seen for what they are, stupid and empty and worthless. (Just about like our righteousness.)

You ask a good question though, because as His children, we are not to condemn, ever. If God wishes to condemn someone, and if He wants them to know through us, then He will make that known to us. It is one of the important reasons that we have been given the mind of Christ through the Spirit living in us. I always remember what Jesus said about His words, (which is how He delivered His judgments,) that every word He spoke were the words that He heard His Father speaking. We can have no better example.

In His love,
vic
 
C

Consumed

Guest
#15
Bible does say that the government does not carry the sword in vain, consequences always come from sin, judges have a hard job, yet they balance their sentences on all the facts presented to them at the time, we might not like some judgement, yet i believe that they are judged even more so on judgement day. Jesus is against injustice, false witnesses, judgement for gain and profit or even political expediency yet Jesus will have the final say.

every time i hear of an atrocious crime my heart goes out to the offender as much as the victim, no one wins really except the devil killing stealing and destroying lives, damage is felt by both respective families not just the perp and victim
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#16
Hi Pickles,

Right from the start we see judgment and mercy.. The Fall then mercy as they could live within the mercy here we see the first hint of the coming gospel.

Ever growing wickedness, God is going to blot out mankind, However He has already promised that there will be a gospel (I think its name from memory is protoeuangelion 'pre - gospel'), so God is also a Faithful God (Steadfast) He uses Noah to carry on, the flood comes and goes and grace abounds even though 'man is continually evil in his heart' (Gen 6 & 8). It is here we find a covenant with Noah.. the sign of which is the Rainbow... but if you read it again, who in this covenant takes the obligations?

This brings us to Nimrod and the tower of Babel, here we see Judgment.. but knowhere is there any grace.. the people are dispersed and confused in language.

Abraham enters the stage, God shows His merciful grace through this man. Through the covenant with Abraham (Gen 12:1-3; 15) in Chapter 17 we see the sign of the Covenant. Chapters 12,15 &17 are significant, again who takes on the obligations of this promissory covenant? Chapter 17 also shows that this is an EVERLASTING covenant. If you want to the best way to see this is to read:

Gen12:1-3, Gen15, Gen17:1-14, John 8:31-59 (the whole of ch8 preferably), Gal 3 &4. This will only take 20 mins max, and it is well worth reading them one after the other, it helps make sense of the everlasting promise to Abraham and the covenant of promise compared to the covenant of Law (Sinai).

Part of the promise was a son this came through Isaac, remember this was long before Abraham, read Gen 3:15 (proto euangelion). so God's Plan of the gospel is full steam ahead. you can see this pattern onwards. God's choice of seed (Gen 3:15 and promise to Abraham) will prevail no matter how satan tries otherwise. All throughout the OT we see God saying... because I have remembered you Father Abraham etc .. so it is very important to see this, and you will many times throughout the OT.

As God promised previoulsy to Abraham he would be the Father of a Nation, so Israel is born. (the enslavement was foretold already to Abraham by God from memory Gen 17 if not 15). From now on grace pertains to Israel. they rebel and moan, God sends judgment, but it follows with grace..because He remembers His promise/covenant with Abraham.

Its mid afternoon here just going out I'll type a quick overview of the rest if you want later... its amazing to see How God's grace and mercy works for His people.

Phil
Thankyou phil, I have seen the promise to Abraham again and again. So far I see that we cannot fully understand Gods Judgement, Ive read scripture where it refurs to us not assuming to know the mind of God and that God does as he pleases. It is making sence for some reason.:) I believe there is alot more to understanding in the Holy Spirit than we realise in flesh.
Mostly I have come to see that God Our Father knew the evil at hand and chose to remove it right away.
I guess where Im having trouble is trasitioning this to our lives. I hate evil , no argument on this.
I see how evil destroys and corrrupts. But The mercy in me is sometimes overwhelming.
I believe what Im trying to figure out here is how to apply both mercy and the hate of evil .
Disernment of mercy and evil without judgement.
The only conclusion I can come to so far is to always love in Jesus, overcome evil with good.
Then trust that God will take care of the rest.
But I wonder if Im missing an important understanding here.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#17
I was the victim of a child molestor. I thank the Lord that he showed me my offender as He see's him. A pitiful little child being abused himself. I now Im able to look at him not with condemnation but with the love of the Lord, the pity for a child so hurt and genuine forgiveness for the man he became because of this. The Lord who would show me this is one who loves his children, child molestors included.
Thankyou imoss for sharing this. I had this happen as well, and was able to forgive.
But reciently I learned that this happened to one of my children several years ago.
I struggled with wanting to find and destroy this person, I still do sometimes.
I also struggled with how could this had happened when we were so careful and watchful, I blaimed myself at first, but Jesus helped all of us heal and forgive.
I just wonder if there is a time where we are to stand against evil?
I read others here speaking to the wrongs and speaking strongly about God's judgement for them.
I question if there is a time to do this or not.
There was a time in my life that I took this attitude, then God Our Father showed me that it was his favor that kept me from falling in to sin. He removed his protection and I found myself commiting the very sins that I had so harshly judged others in.
He restored me quickly, and I realised that my resistance was do to His help and less of my own abuilities.
But I do wonder if we can judge in favor of mercy? Another words judge rightly? Or give to much mercy.
Thankyou imoss, :D God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#18
What do we do with Jesus' words, then, telling us not to condemn or judge? Was he joking? I don't get the punchline.
:) This is just what Im trying to understand, it is difficult, but Judgement is mine says the Lord.
I believe we are to confront evil, call it out and in Jesus condem it.
But your right, when do we speak to the wrongs?
The very reason for this post.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#19
We are free to put people in power, but we should acknowledge that by doing so we're putting them at a spiritual risk. If they accept the appointment and use it to judge others, then they will be judged accordingly. It's a terrible burden for the person we put into office:



Personally, I think it's best for Christians to avoid jobs and situations that might force them to exercise authority over others. Of course, we may have to occasionally render to Caesar (as in jury duty), but we don't have to be in a position to judge. That is a choice we make and we know the consequences.



In the Luke passage he wasn't talking to the Pharisees:



When he said "don't judge" and "don't condemn," they would have understood it in a straightforward manner. The words were common and plain.



The question is, though, whose? What men call justice rarely is:



It is, I believe, our fault that we're forced to put men into the position of judgment. When the people pressed Samuel to ask God for a king, Samuel warned them that the king would exploit them, but the people still wanted a king. In our rush for earthly justice, we make the same request. If we want earthly justice now, it comes with a heavy cost.



I would be in a dark place if I allowed myself to be governed by what I wanted. Fortunately, Jesus has expressed God's will concerning justice. It is our job to align ourself with it.
There is scripture about the goverment and how we are to serve the laws of the world.
It would make a great topic for discussion. :)
What Im seeking here is the balence in Jesus.
Or better said how he asks us to live.
Thankyou though, as that is also an important issue and I believe will be a true concern for all christians here in the near future if not already.
God bless, pickles
 

pickles

Senior Member
Apr 20, 2009
14,440
148
0
#20
Its all up to God. The best thing you can do is say I don't understand many things of God and leave it there. You can't understand all the things of God. Why should you. We as people want a logical answer for everything. God will just do as He pleases. We want to rationalize everything so we can put oh God did this because; into this box that fits how our minds think. God is God and His ways are not our ways. So its perfectly human for you to be thinking as you are. And we as humans will not understand many things of God. That is normal.
Loveschild, I agree compleatly. Its just I wonder if ,just as we can judge others in sin and be wrong, if it is just as wrong to be too compassionate, if one can judge also in favor?
Im hopeful there will be scripture on this that I can apply to this.
You are right though, when one has no answer one must trust all to God Our Father.
Thankyou and God bless, pickles