Which gospel?

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Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#1
I was raised in church and a Christian family. I "accepted Jesus in to my heart" at the tender age of 5 and was baptized in water at the age of 8. I was a "good" boy all around - assured of having my sins forgiven and that I was going to Heaven because of what Jesus had done for me and because, of course, I believed in Him. Why else do you think we would go to church?
Well, puberty rolled around and I found my thrill. I was lost in lust though my church attendance never dwindled. Addicted to pornography, masturbation and fornication everyone still saw a nice young believer in Christ. When suddenly, God sovereignly put a passionate desire in me for His Word on 3/4/96 during my sophomore year in college and I began to see glorious and at times terrifying things that I never heard in all my years in church. One of the first things I saw was that I wasn't free to go on in my sins, not by trying not to but by faith. This ultimately brought me to the precipice of suicide by the fall of '99 cause I just could not stop. Well, thank God that I was a part of a fellowship that understood that Jesus said we would cast out demons and that's what they did with me. Now, no longer under compulsion, I was free to appropriate by faith what Jesus had done for me and on 2/20/2000 I was baptized in water and received the circumcision of my heart, as we see in Colossians 2. I might add, God showed up at that service and 300 people simultaneously began crying when I came up out of the water because of His presence. It was powerful. So then, the Lord Jesus began to reveal His Kingdom to me. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and began waiting upon Him all the day. Jesus actually became Lord over my life and I was free to offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice. His Sabbath-Rest has been glorious for me and my family and He truly is the Prince of Peace. "The sons of God are those who are being led by the Spirit of God," Romans 8:14, and as is previously stated in that chapter, He has taken me from a life lived based on my soul (what I want, think and feel) to a life directed by His Spirit and not according to the sinful nature. We have to deny our souls, take up our cross and follow Him. David said in Psalm 16, "I have set the Lord before me continually". In religion, I had the language of following Jesus but not the reality. I was what the Bible refers to as a mocker. The Greek word for an actor is (basically) hypocrite.
Part of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ is that the church no longer accepts me if I state any of this. It's ok if I keep my mouth shut but if I begin to state things like the Greek word translated as "forgiveness" in our New Testaments is the Greek word "aphesis" which means freedom, leadership begins to frown, especially when Jesus said that everyone who sins is a slave of sin and that a slave has not permanent place in the household but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free you are free indeed.
I did not believe the Gospel of the Kingdom, the one Jesus preached, when I was growing up. But I did believe "a" gospel. And if you want to get to the root of it, you have to go all the way back to Genesis 3. Satan has never had to change his tactics because they have always worked: "Did God really say that?" "You shall not surely die." "You shall be like Him" and you are also going to disobey Him the whole way. Religion had told me that I was always going to be a rebel against God and remain in sin but also that when I see Him I would be like Him for I would see Him as He is. Furthermore, religion had taught me nothing about the Kingdom of God. I thought that just meant heaven. I didn't know it meant the Way Jesus walked, from above the sun. 1 John 2 reveals to us that we must walk as Jesus walked and He confessed that He did nothing on His own initiative but only what the Father told Him. So the first "gospel" I believed in didn't require my death and resurrection in to a new life. See Romans 6 about the death. We must be born of water and the Spirit. It was formerly hidden from my eyes that the 4 gospels explicitly state that Jesus came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit - that's how John introduces Him and if you are a student of Scripture you know you need to take special attention when God starts repeating things as He does with "If you eye causes you to sin, gouge it out for it is better for you to enter life having one eye than having 2 eyes and be cast in to Hell" which He repeats in Matthew. See, that formerly didn't make any sense to me when I believed the contemporary American version of the gospel.
So when I hear people say "the gospel" in this 21st century, I tend to cringe because I know it is not likely that it is the Gospel of the Kingdom but rather the one I believed growing up. I was left in my sins, left in Egypt. Pharoah still had me in bondage. I had no idea what the pillar of cloud and of fire signified in my life and thought the Promised Land was heaven. (Not sure how the Philistines and all the 'ites would be there, but we didn't think about that.) Anyway, we desperately need a revolution. There is a different gospel, just as Paul stated in 2 Cor. 11, and frightfully, it is accompanied by a different Jesus and spirit. My Jesus when I was growing up never would have done that to Ananias and Sapphira and there was certainly no danger of Him ever vomiting me out of His mouth. I had the gentle Jesus, meek and mild.
Because the Gospel of the Kingdom is different from the modern gospel in this country, my family and I are not welcome in church and that's not right. A modern gospel has caused the salt to lose its savor and the meat is rotting. We do not need to point our fingers at the world. We need to point them at ourselves and repent and lose our religious prejudices and humbly accept what is written. It took me a while to lose my religion. It had a power and I could not see. The Bible was closed to me and hard and my life was messy. Jesus was not head over all things to me. I was. And I make a terrible god. "No one who is born of God sins but He who was born of God keeps him and the Evil One does not touch him." The Bible isn't complicated. Religion is and the world is reeling.
 

bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,545
252
83
#2
I was raised in church and a Christian family. I "accepted Jesus in to my heart" at the tender age of 5 and was baptized in water at the age of 8. I was a "good" boy all around - assured of having my sins forgiven and that I was going to Heaven because of what Jesus had done for me and because, of course, I believed in Him. Why else do you think we would go to church?
Well, puberty rolled around and I found my thrill. I was lost in lust though my church attendance never dwindled. Addicted to pornography, masturbation and fornication everyone still saw a nice young believer in Christ. When suddenly, God sovereignly put a passionate desire in me for His Word on 3/4/96 during my sophomore year in college and I began to see glorious and at times terrifying things that I never heard in all my years in church. One of the first things I saw was that I wasn't free to go on in my sins, not by trying not to but by faith. This ultimately brought me to the precipice of suicide by the fall of '99 cause I just could not stop. Well, thank God that I was a part of a fellowship that understood that Jesus said we would cast out demons and that's what they did with me. Now, no longer under compulsion, I was free to appropriate by faith what Jesus had done for me and on 2/20/2000 I was baptized in water and received the circumcision of my heart, as we see in Colossians 2. I might add, God showed up at that service and 300 people simultaneously began crying when I came up out of the water because of His presence. It was powerful. So then, the Lord Jesus began to reveal His Kingdom to me. I was baptized with the Holy Spirit and began waiting upon Him all the day. Jesus actually became Lord over my life and I was free to offer myself to Him as a living sacrifice. His Sabbath-Rest has been glorious for me and my family and He truly is the Prince of Peace. "The sons of God are those who are being led by the Spirit of God," Romans 8:14, and as is previously stated in that chapter, He has taken me from a life lived based on my soul (what I want, think and feel) to a life directed by His Spirit and not according to the sinful nature. We have to deny our souls, take up our cross and follow Him. David said in Psalm 16, "I have set the Lord before me continually". In religion, I had the language of following Jesus but not the reality. I was what the Bible refers to as a mocker. The Greek word for an actor is (basically) hypocrite.
Part of becoming a disciple of Jesus Christ is that the church no longer accepts me if I state any of this. It's ok if I keep my mouth shut but if I begin to state things like the Greek word translated as "forgiveness" in our New Testaments is the Greek word "aphesis" which means freedom, leadership begins to frown, especially when Jesus said that everyone who sins is a slave of sin and that a slave has not permanent place in the household but a son belongs to it forever. So if the Son sets you free you are free indeed.
I did not believe the Gospel of the Kingdom, the one Jesus preached, when I was growing up. But I did believe "a" gospel. And if you want to get to the root of it, you have to go all the way back to Genesis 3. Satan has never had to change his tactics because they have always worked: "Did God really say that?" "You shall not surely die." "You shall be like Him" and you are also going to disobey Him the whole way. Religion had told me that I was always going to be a rebel against God and remain in sin but also that when I see Him I would be like Him for I would see Him as He is. Furthermore, religion had taught me nothing about the Kingdom of God. I thought that just meant heaven. I didn't know it meant the Way Jesus walked, from above the sun. 1 John 2 reveals to us that we must walk as Jesus walked and He confessed that He did nothing on His own initiative but only what the Father told Him. So the first "gospel" I believed in didn't require my death and resurrection in to a new life. See Romans 6 about the death. We must be born of water and the Spirit. It was formerly hidden from my eyes that the 4 gospels explicitly state that Jesus came to baptize us with the Holy Spirit - that's how John introduces Him and if you are a student of Scripture you know you need to take special attention when God starts repeating things as He does with "If you eye causes you to sin, gouge it out for it is better for you to enter life having one eye than having 2 eyes and be cast in to Hell" which He repeats in Matthew. See, that formerly didn't make any sense to me when I believed the contemporary American version of the gospel.
So when I hear people say "the gospel" in this 21st century, I tend to cringe because I know it is not likely that it is the Gospel of the Kingdom but rather the one I believed growing up. I was left in my sins, left in Egypt. Pharoah still had me in bondage. I had no idea what the pillar of cloud and of fire signified in my life and thought the Promised Land was heaven. (Not sure how the Philistines and all the 'ites would be there, but we didn't think about that.) Anyway, we desperately need a revolution. There is a different gospel, just as Paul stated in 2 Cor. 11, and frightfully, it is accompanied by a different Jesus and spirit. My Jesus when I was growing up never would have done that to Ananias and Sapphira and there was certainly no danger of Him ever vomiting me out of His mouth. I had the gentle Jesus, meek and mild.
Because the Gospel of the Kingdom is different from the modern gospel in this country, my family and I are not welcome in church and that's not right. A modern gospel has caused the salt to lose its savor and the meat is rotting. We do not need to point our fingers at the world. We need to point them at ourselves and repent and lose our religious prejudices and humbly accept what is written. It took me a while to lose my religion. It had a power and I could not see. The Bible was closed to me and hard and my life was messy. Jesus was not head over all things to me. I was. And I make a terrible god. "No one who is born of God sins but He who was born of God keeps him and the Evil One does not touch him." The Bible isn't complicated. Religion is and the world is reeling.
Facinating testomony and welcome to Christian Chat. I have a couple of questions (maybe three) if you don't mind. When you really young what church did you attend? Secondily, what church was it that was doing the casting out demons thing? What preachers and teachers were you listening to on tv or by tape and what books were you reading? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
113
#3
William R Newell (1868-1956) -

[quoting Newell, in his Commentary/book "Romans: Verse-by-Verse" under the chpt on Romans 6--page 246 and page 247]

The Place of Man under Grace:

1. He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!

2. He is not "on probation."

3. As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the Cross, and Christ is his life.

4. Grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn: for God knew all the human exigencies (needs) beforehand; His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them.

5. The failure of devotion does not cause the withdrawal of bestowed grace (as it would under Law) . For example: the man in I Corinthians 5:1-5, and also those in 11:30-32, who did not "judge" themselves, and so were "judged by the Lord, -- that they might not be condemned with the world!"

[…<snip>… (though this part was really good also :) )… ]

Things Which Gracious Souls Discover

1. To" hope to be better" is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.

2. To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.

3. To be discouraged is unbelief, -- as to God's purpose and plan of blessing for you.

4. To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.

5. The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion.

6. Real devotion to God arises, not from man's will to show it; but from the discovery that blessing has been received from God while we were yet unworthy and undevoted.

7. To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God's order and preach Law, not grace. The Law made man's blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so, -- in proper measure.

--William R Newell, Romans: Verse-by-Verse, pages 245 and 247 (Chapter 6, on Romans 6)

[author also of the Hymn "At Calvary" (1895)]

[end quoting]

____________

[and on another note :) ]

A Hymn by Edward G Taylor - Not Try, But Trust -

1 Not saved are we by trying,

From self can come no aid;

'Tis on the blood relying,

Once for our ransom paid;

'Tis looking unto Jesus,

The holy One and just;

'Tis His great work that saves us,

It is not Try, but Trust.

Chorus:

It is not Try, but Trust,

It is not Try, but Trust;

'Tis His great work that saves us;

It is not Try, but Trust.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,606
3,254
113
#4
So when I hear people say "the gospel" in this 21st century, I tend to cringe because I know it is not likely that it is the Gospel of the Kingdom but rather the one I believed growing up.
1. It is true that the full and true Gospel of Grace is not being generally preached and propagated. At the same time the Bible is now freely available to the whole world in every major language (which means that all have access to the true Gospel).

2. It is also true that many false gospels are being promoted today, since many false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets have appeared.

3. But it is false to imagine that the Gospel of the Kingdom is any different from the Gospel of God, which is the Gospel of Christ, which is the Gospel of Grace (and has many other terms applicable). There is only one Gospel.

4. The true Gospel has always proclaimed (and still proclaims) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Remission of sins requires repentance.

5. The true Gospel (as presented from the Word of God) has supernatural power to bring sinners to the Savior, under the supernatural convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.

6. The "full Gospel" does not teach that every child of God will be speaking in tongues. But it does teach that everyone who repents and believes will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And those who walk in the Spirit will also be filled with the Spirit.
 

dodgingstones

Active member
Nov 20, 2019
157
85
28
#5
Watermark: Do you/did Newell believe in feet will, or Calvin's predestination theology?
 
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#7
William R Newell (1868-1956) -

[quoting Newell, in his Commentary/book "Romans: Verse-by-Verse" under the chpt on Romans 6--page 246 and page 247]

The Place of Man under Grace:

1. He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!

2. He is not "on probation."

3. As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the Cross, and Christ is his life.

4. Grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn: for God knew all the human exigencies (needs) beforehand; His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them.

5. The failure of devotion does not cause the withdrawal of bestowed grace (as it would under Law) . For example: the man in I Corinthians 5:1-5, and also those in 11:30-32, who did not "judge" themselves, and so were "judged by the Lord, -- that they might not be condemned with the world!"

[…<snip>… (though this part was really good also :) )… ]

Things Which Gracious Souls Discover

1. To" hope to be better" is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.

2. To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.

3. To be discouraged is unbelief, -- as to God's purpose and plan of blessing for you.

4. To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.

5. The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion.

6. Real devotion to God arises, not from man's will to show it; but from the discovery that blessing has been received from God while we were yet unworthy and undevoted.

7. To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God's order and preach Law, not grace. The Law made man's blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so, -- in proper measure.

--William R Newell, Romans: Verse-by-Verse, pages 245 and 247 (Chapter 6, on Romans 6)

[author also of the Hymn "At Calvary" (1895)]

[end quoting]

____________

[and on another note :) ]

A Hymn by Edward G Taylor - Not Try, But Trust -

1 Not saved are we by trying,

From self can come no aid;

'Tis on the blood relying,

Once for our ransom paid;

'Tis looking unto Jesus,

The holy One and just;

'Tis His great work that saves us,

It is not Try, but Trust.

Chorus:

It is not Try, but Trust,

It is not Try, but Trust;

'Tis His great work that saves us;

It is not Try, but Trust.
The Bible sure does shed a lot of light on the commentaries doesn't it? Like Jesus, let's just stick with, "It is written."
William R Newell (1868-1956) -

[quoting Newell, in his Commentary/book "Romans: Verse-by-Verse" under the chpt on Romans 6--page 246 and page 247]

The Place of Man under Grace:

1. He has been accepted in Christ, who is his standing!

2. He is not "on probation."

3. As to his life past, it does not exist before God: he died at the Cross, and Christ is his life.

4. Grace, once bestowed, is not withdrawn: for God knew all the human exigencies (needs) beforehand; His action was independent of them, not dependent upon them.

5. The failure of devotion does not cause the withdrawal of bestowed grace (as it would under Law) . For example: the man in I Corinthians 5:1-5, and also those in 11:30-32, who did not "judge" themselves, and so were "judged by the Lord, -- that they might not be condemned with the world!"

[…<snip>… (though this part was really good also :) )… ]

Things Which Gracious Souls Discover

1. To" hope to be better" is to fail to see yourself in Christ only.

2. To be disappointed with yourself, is to have believed in yourself.

3. To be discouraged is unbelief, -- as to God's purpose and plan of blessing for you.

4. To be proud, is to be blind! For we have no standing before God, in ourselves.

5. The lack of Divine blessing, therefore, comes from unbelief, and not from failure of devotion.

6. Real devotion to God arises, not from man's will to show it; but from the discovery that blessing has been received from God while we were yet unworthy and undevoted.

7. To preach devotion first, and blessing second, is to reverse God's order and preach Law, not grace. The Law made man's blessing depend on devotion; Grace confers undeserved, unconditional blessing: our devotion may follow, but does not always do so, -- in proper measure.

--William R Newell, Romans: Verse-by-Verse, pages 245 and 247 (Chapter 6, on Romans 6)

[author also of the Hymn "At Calvary" (1895)]

[end quoting]

____________

[and on another note :) ]

A Hymn by Edward G Taylor - Not Try, But Trust -

1 Not saved are we by trying,

From self can come no aid;

'Tis on the blood relying,

Once for our ransom paid;

'Tis looking unto Jesus,

The holy One and just;

'Tis His great work that saves us,

It is not Try, but Trust.

Chorus:

It is not Try, but Trust,

It is not Try, but Trust;

'Tis His great work that saves us;

It is not Try, but Trust.
The Bible sheds a lot of light on the commentaries. Good grief.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
113
#8
The Bible sure does shed a lot of light on the commentaries doesn't it? Like Jesus, let's just stick with, "It is written."


The Bible sheds a lot of light on the commentaries. Good grief.
:) I've posted tons on that, around here

(I'm not really proficient on working the "SEARCH" feature, so my apologies... or I would refer you to those posts... especially the ones covering the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issues... I may try to find some recent ones, and post one or two of those, and then you can "see if these things be so" ;) )
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
113
#9
Watermark: Do you/did Newell believe in feet will, or Calvin's predestination theology?
Thanks.

Found these few quotes (if they are helpful to your question):

"By distinction [to others named earlier in article], Miles Stanford stood in opposition to Reformed theology’s overarching covenant (anti-dispensational) framework and believed that several of the 5 points of Calvinism fell short of what Scripture revealed on these subjects. However, at no time did he consider any of the 5 points of Arminianism to represent or contain truth. Similar to John N. Darby, William R. Newell, and L. S. Chafer before him, Stanford saw all articles of Remonstrance leavened by humanistic rationalism."

[and]

"Wm. Newell is best remembered for his outstanding exposition of Paul's letter to Rome--Romans, Verse by Verse. This commentary should be on the shelf of every Christian who desires to understand the New Testament and particularly the writings of the Apostle Paul.

"Newell was not a philosopher and thus was unable to articulate biblical compatibilism. However, as a keen dispensational Bible expositor, he clearly understood and preached the sovereignty of God and human volition, while standing against the falsehood of free will. Most wonderfully, brother Newell understood the place of God's MERCY in our salvation. The following are a few brief excerpts from his commentary on Romans." [not shown here]


[and, elsewhere from MJS's ^ website (mentioned above)]

"Paul Wilson, ARMINIANISM versus CALVINISM [TDW: I've posted excerpts from this article before, here on CC]. This short booklet (first appeared in Christian Truth magazine; later reprinted by Bible Truth Publishers) is an introduction to J. N. Darby's biblical views. He was neither Arminian nor Calvinist."



"Within the context of a normal literal hermeneutic, we believe a compatibilist understanding of the will combined with a Pauline dispensational approach to Scripture best harmonizes the entire Bible."


"One form of determinism which appears consistent with Scripture and is best able to reconcile the truths of human freedom, responsibility, and the sovereignty of God is called compatibilism.

"COMPATIBILISM is the belief (presuppositional tenet), held by many Bible-believing Christians, which asserts that mankind possess enough freedom of will (volition) to make him an active participant in the drama of redemption, but not so much that we need to redefine or place limitations on God’s sovereignty. This position distinguishes two kinds of causes which influence and determine actions—constraining and nonconstraining. Constraining causes force an individual to act against his will. Example 1: I order you to behave in a certain way and threaten you with physical harm if you don't comply. By comparison, nonconstraining causes are sufficient to bring about a determined action, but they do not force persons to act against their will, desires or wishes. Example 2: I encourage you to behave in the same way as in Example 1, but now present an irresistible argument that effectively connects in a positive way with the source of your motivation. Your will and desire are brought into conformance with my will. Thus, under compatibilism the will is considered "free" since the forces are nonconstraining, but the will is still causally determined. These concepts should immediately make sense to anyone who has raised children or have managed employees in the workplace. What of Scriptural examples? There are numerous verses from Genesis to Revelation that reflect compatibilism."


[end quoting, for INFORMATION purposes, as to your specific question regarding "Wm R Newell"]


____________

As for me (as I've stated in past posts), I am neither Arminianist nor Calvinist.

Hope that helps. :)
 
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#10
1. It is true that the full and true Gospel of Grace is not being generally preached and propagated. At the same time the Bible is now freely available to the whole world in every major language (which means that all have access to the true Gospel).

2. It is also true that many false gospels are being promoted today, since many false teachers, false apostles, and false prophets have appeared.

3. But it is false to imagine that the Gospel of the Kingdom is any different from the Gospel of God, which is the Gospel of Christ, which is the Gospel of Grace (and has many other terms applicable). There is only one Gospel.

4. The true Gospel has always proclaimed (and still proclaims) repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Remission of sins requires repentance.

5. The true Gospel (as presented from the Word of God) has supernatural power to bring sinners to the Savior, under the supernatural convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.

6. The "full Gospel" does not teach that every child of God will be speaking in tongues. But it does teach that everyone who repents and believes will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. And those who walk in the Spirit will also be filled with the Spirit.
You seem to misunderstand my meaning when I say "Which gospel?" Of course I know that there is truly only one. But it is not so in the minds and hearts of men within religion - or from the pulpits. It seems your #3 belies that you do not understand the Gospel as a change of government, even though you have some fine sounding doctrines. We pass from under Satan to under God through repentance, baptism in water, through the cross and our faith in His substitutionary sacrifice, through His resurrection, through His being enthroned at the Father's right hand and through the pouring out of the Holy Spirit, though the glory has departed to a great degree from the church as it did from Israel. The Gospel is our death to sin through faith and baptism - He has promised to circumcise our hearts. We come in to a new Way of life where Jesus is enthroned in our lives as Lord and we learn to walk as He did: no longer from under the sun but from above it, through the Person of the Holy Spirit. And since we are disciple of Jesus Christ, we have not only denied our souls and given up our lives, we also abide in His Word in that Psalm 1 kind of way and in that zealous Psalm 119 way. Believing the Bible, I'm sure you agree.
 
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#11
:) I've posted tons on that, around here

(I'm not really proficient on working the "SEARCH" feature, so my apologies... or I would refer you to those posts... especially the ones covering the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issues... I may try to find some recent ones, and post one or two of those, and then you can "see if these things be so" ;) )
Thank you.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
113
#12
Here's one recent post I made on the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue (perhaps it may help you understand my perspective :) ):


[quoting that post (in the context of a DIFFERENT convo, mind you)]

I might also have the reader consider the following about the concept of "firstfruit," and what all Scripture has to say about it (to the end that we see how it relates to this very topic, as well):


-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_c...ians/15-20.htm - re: Christ; with no "G3588 [the]" word with "firstfruit" (speaking of Jesus, "But now is Christ risen out from the dead, firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.")

-- https://biblehub.com/text/james/1-18.htm - re: the "us/we" of this verse, where it says, "that we should be A KIND of firstfruit of His creatures" [note that Eph1:10 does not speak of "in this present age [singular]" as the rest of the epistle IS covering]

-- [also, some versions have 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as saying (and I tend to believe this is correct)] "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose [G138 - heilato/haireó ([BibleHub-]"probably akin to airo" G142 ["I raise, lift up, take away, remove"])] you firstfruit unto salvation, through sanctification [i.e.'set apart'] by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To [into/unto/eis] this he called you through [/by means of] our gospel [...]"

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-4.htm - re: the 144,000 (with "G3588 [the - to]" alongside the word "firstfruit")... whom I do not believe have existed on the earth as of yet; I see THIS group (with ITS wording as found in Rev14:4) to be parallel to the wording as found in the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" passages in Leviticus 23, this SECOND one being found in v.17 where it speaks of "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (associated with the "WHEAT harvest" [note: there is more than ONE "harvest," both in nature and in Scripture])


So, with there being MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture (like in nature), and with the 144,000 (Rev7:3-8 and Rev14:4) being associated with the "WHEAT harvest" in the SECOND of TWO distinct references to "firstfruit" in Lev23 (the SECOND one being with regard to "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [note what 1Cor5:7 says of "the Church which is His body [/ONE body]" BY CONTRAST! "ye are UNleavened" !]), and who (re: 144,000) have not yet been in existence on the earth (but WILL be, DURING the trib years), then it is something to take notice of and to consider deeply the following truth:


Exodus 23:19 -

"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

Exodus 34:26 -

"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."


[ ^ sound familiar at all??]

[end quoting that post; will try to find other posts on this SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue, that may be a little more pointed]


[recall Jesus' words in John 16:12, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN..."]
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
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#13
[quoting another post (in the context of an entirely DIFFERENT convo), also on the Subject of the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issues]

^ this SEQUENCE I am pointing out ^ [not shown here] , is also reflected in the Matthew 22:7-8 verses, with verse 7 speaking of the 70ad events (see Lk21:23,20, and Lk19:41-44, etc) "But when king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, AND BURNED UP THEIR CITY," then with verse 8 going on to speak of the "THEN SAITH HE to his servants" (that necessarily takes place AFTER the 70ad events [just named in v.7!]; and which I believe correlates with [the LATER 95ad] Revelation 1:1's wording "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [see 7:3] things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]…" [not things which will unfold over the course of some 2000 years, and not "immediateLY/quickLY/soon [adverbs]"], and which 'future things' [comp.1:1 to 4:1/1:19c] lead up to His Second coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom, i.e. chpts 6-19, the "IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" future, specific/limited time period leading up to the earthly MK age which will commence upon His "RETURN" to the earth, Rev19).

Matthew 22:7 and verse 8 is providing a SEQUENCE that DEMONSTRATES that whatever the "THEN SAITH HE" was, it HAD TO HAVE been "SAID" AFTER the events of v.7/70ad-events (95ad qualifies, here, and the "servants," at the very least, are shown to be the ones named in 7:3 [i.e. the 144,000] and its surrounding context [which are "far-future" and have not yet been in existence in time/history, but WILL be […<snip>…(this part was about how THAT "fits" IN RELATION TO "our Rapture" TIMEWISE...)]]).

[end quoting that post]
 
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#14
Here's one recent post I made on the SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue (perhaps it may help you understand my perspective :) ):


[quoting that post (in the context of a DIFFERENT convo, mind you)]

I might also have the reader consider the following about the concept of "firstfruit," and what all Scripture has to say about it (to the end that we see how it relates to this very topic, as well):


-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_c...ians/15-20.htm - re: Christ; with no "G3588 [the]" word with "firstfruit" (speaking of Jesus, "But now is Christ risen out from the dead, firstfruit of those having fallen asleep.")

-- https://biblehub.com/text/james/1-18.htm - re: the "us/we" of this verse, where it says, "that we should be A KIND of firstfruit of His creatures" [note that Eph1:10 does not speak of "in this present age [singular]" as the rest of the epistle IS covering]

-- [also, some versions have 2 Thessalonians 2:13 as saying (and I tend to believe this is correct)] "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose [G138 - heilato/haireó ([BibleHub-]"probably akin to airo" G142 ["I raise, lift up, take away, remove"])] you firstfruit unto salvation, through sanctification [i.e.'set apart'] by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To [into/unto/eis] this he called you through [/by means of] our gospel [...]"

-- https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/14-4.htm - re: the 144,000 (with "G3588 [the - to]" alongside the word "firstfruit")... whom I do not believe have existed on the earth as of yet; I see THIS group (with ITS wording as found in Rev14:4) to be parallel to the wording as found in the SECOND of TWO "firstfruit" passages in Leviticus 23, this SECOND one being found in v.17 where it speaks of "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (associated with the "WHEAT harvest" [note: there is more than ONE "harvest," both in nature and in Scripture])


So, with there being MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture (like in nature), and with the 144,000 (Rev7:3-8 and Rev14:4) being associated with the "WHEAT harvest" in the SECOND of TWO distinct references to "firstfruit" in Lev23 (the SECOND one being with regard to "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" [note what 1Cor5:7 says of "the Church which is His body [/ONE body]" BY CONTRAST! "ye are UNleavened" !]), and who (re: 144,000) have not yet been in existence on the earth (but WILL be, DURING the trib years), then it is something to take notice of and to consider deeply the following truth:


Exodus 23:19 -

"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring into the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."

Exodus 34:26 -

"The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk."


[ ^ sound familiar at all??]

[end quoting that post; will try to find other posts on this SEQUENCE/CHRONOLOGY issue, that may be a little more pointed]


[recall Jesus' words in John 16:12, "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN..."]
I think you are missing the simplicity of my post and what I am saying.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
3,284
670
113
#16
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#17
No. I can tell you that I see quite clearly that what you are not grasping is "chronology"
(as do most who are saying what you are trying to say). :)
Lol. Well then it is amazing that Jesus Christ had done these things in my life just as it is written, as He has spoken His Word to me, a fool. Amazing. Praise the Lord!
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
9,606
3,254
113
#18
But it is not so in the minds and hearts of men within religion - or from the pulpits.
That is neither here nor there. The mistaken ideas of men do not count. And you and I will be judged for our beliefs based upon the Word of God, not the doctrines of men.

Also, we are speaking strictly about Gospel Truth as found in the Bible, so your thumbs down to my post has no basis. I simply did not give all the supporting Scriptures, which I am sure you can discover for yourself. But anyone who knows the true Gospel would have given me a couple of thumbs up.

Since we are speaking strictly about THE GOSPEL, we are not dealing with all the other Christian doctrines relating to the Christian walk (which you have spelled out). All of that follows the Gospel.
 
Nov 24, 2019
87
103
33
Virginia
www.youtube.com
#19
That is neither here nor there. The mistaken ideas of men do not count. And you and I will be judged for our beliefs based upon the Word of God, not the doctrines of men.

Also, we are speaking strictly about Gospel Truth as found in the Bible, so your thumbs down to my post has no basis. I simply did not give all the supporting Scriptures, which I am sure you can discover for yourself. But anyone who knows the true Gospel would have given me a couple of thumbs up.

Since we are speaking strictly about THE GOSPEL, we are not dealing with all the other Christian doctrines relating to the Christian walk (which you have spelled out). All of that follows the Gospel.
Facinating testomony and welcome to Christian Chat. I have a couple of questions (maybe three) if you don't mind. When you really young what church did you attend? Secondily, what church was it that was doing the casting out demons thing? What preachers and teachers were you listening to on tv or by tape and what books were you reading? :eek:

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
Hi Bluto. Thank you for your questions. I am loath to mention denominations since they are included in the Galatians 5 acts of the sinful nature, but I came up in a Methodist church. At 8 years of age we switched to Church of God. Eagle's Nest Christian Fellowship in Milton, DE was where I was attending when the elders ministered deliverance to me. At no other time during my years there did I ever witness demons being cast out of anyone. But those men had enough wisdom to know what they had on their hands in my case and what the Word of God said should be done about it in the name of Jesus Christ. It changed my life and enabled me to go forward in my relationship with Jesus Christ. Lastly, Derek Prince is who I was listening to on tape from '99 through today, though more so then. I was also reading Smith Wigglesworth and still do occasionally to this day. I trust no religious prejudice will taint your view of the channels I've mentioned by which God's grace has come in to my life. Let's just focus on the Scriptures and the power of God, like the Lord said and not go in to error. Amen?
 

OneOfHis

Well-known member
Mar 24, 2019
420
819
93
#20
The gospel?

2098. euaggelion
Strong's Concordance
euaggelion: good news​
Original Word: εὐαγγέλιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: euaggelion
Phonetic Spelling: (yoo-ang-ghel'-ee-on)
Definition: good news
Usage: the good news of the coming of the Messiah


The gospel is the good news of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ coming in the flesh to function as the spotless lamb so that the just punishment we deserve could be taken by Him and by grace through faith His righteousness imputed to us.




1. We are sinners who deserve Gods righteous judgement.

2. God will only accept absolute perfection into heaven.

3. It is by Jesus we fallen people can be adopted and seen as sons/daughters of God.



1. We hear the truth.

2. Upon belief and faith IN Christ (an indwelling response to the truth, not a choice you make) you are born again as sons and daughters of God.

3. We are imputed with His righteousness so that we may be accepted into such a Holy kingdom and escape what we deserve without His grace.

Our mind changes through belief in the gospel, He changes our inner man.

3341. metanoia
Strong's Concordance
metanoia: change of mind, repentance​
Original Word: μετάνοια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: metanoia
Phonetic Spelling: (met-an'-oy-ah)
Definition: change of mind, repentance
Usage: repentance, a change of mind, change in the inner man.



TLDR?

1. God is not only loving, He is also just and will bring justice to evil.
2. We have done evil and deserve His justice.
3. God has sent His son and came in the flesh out of mercy and love and lived a perfect life so that whosoever will have faith in Him will be imputed with Christs righteousness and thier sins will be paid for by His grace.


(Faith is belief of, trust in, confidence in, fidelity/ loyalty to Christ)

We don't place our assurance for salvation in our wisdom, nor our walk but in Christ Himself.

Then out of love (not obligation) for who loved us first (as well as others), we function as His body to show the world His love here on earth while being chastened or encouraged by the Holy spirit and looking to Him to lead us...​