Which gospel?

[TheDivineWatermark]

While I agree with this definition of the perfect, it is only true in the Indicative. There is no time in the Subjunctive, imperative, etc.

"Aspect" is more important in Koine Greek, than time. In other words, how you are viewing it. The Aorist tense is more like sitting on the sidewalk watching the parade go by. Whereas the perfect is more like view the parade from start to finish from above.

Okay, perhaps you can help me out then.

My post focused on:

1) v.10 saying "having been sanctified [PERFECT participle]"; and

2) v.14 saying "He has perfected [PERFECT *indicative* active; and then the rest of the sentence saying-->] for/unto/eis all time/the ever..."


So, in view of this, I am not sure what your disagreement is, or *where exactly* your correction ought to apply. Please clarify.

Are you merely endeavoring to correct the "definition" of the "Perfect Tense" thing I put, or are you trying to point out how this does not apply to these two verses in some way (the way I've stated), or something else entirely? I'm finding it difficult to tell, with the information you have provided. Are you saying that the one that is a "perfect participle" does not mean [insert the definition I provided; and the rest of the sentence saying "by means of the offering of the body of Christ once-for-all/once]?? and that the one with the "perfect indicative" doesn't mean [insert the definition I provided; and/or that the words following don't mean what they appear to mean?] (sorry, I'm getting kinda tired on this end).

Would appreciate any clarification (to my understanding) you care to provide. Thanks!

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT: I was getting ready to correct that post above ^ , but was "timed-out"... Hope you can make sense of that mess (I really am way overly tired, at this moment ), my apologies

... I do realize I have some of it backwards, there. lol

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, got knocked offline for a bit... lemme try again...

You are saying that v.14 is okay with that definition, because it IS "perfect INDICATIVE"...

but that v.10 isn't (isn't okay with that definition), because it is "perfect PARTICIPLE" instead (and not "perfect INDICATIVE").

So that, v.10 shouldn't read(?) [according to what I'm understanding from you (??)] "having been sanctified [perf. participle] by means of the offering of the body of Christ once-for-all/once"... ? or perhaps that it CAN read that way okay, and just that *that particular DEFINITION [I supplied]* doesn't quite jive, BECAUSE it is not "perfect INDICATIVE" here (but is instead "perfect PARTICIPLE")?? Am I somewhere close to grasping your meaning?? lol

again, my apologies... and thank you for any clarification here.

 

[Noose]

Believing in Christ is not thinking about Jesus but working.

John 10:
22At that time the Feast of Dedicationb took place in Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was walking in the temple courtsc in Solomon’s Colonnade. 24So the Jews gathered around Him and demanded, “How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly.”

25“I already told you,” Jesus replied, “but you did not believe. The works I do in My Father’s name testify on My behalf. 26But because you are not My sheep, you refuse to believe. 27My sheep listen to My voice; I know them, and they follow Me. 28I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand. 29My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all. No one can snatch them out of My Father’s hand. 30I and the Father are one.”

John 14:12Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever believes in Me will also do the works that I am doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

What, may I ask, is this ^ in reference to? My saying that "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" is not [what we call] "UP IN Heaven"?? do you mean that part of my comment?


[ https://biblehub.com/text/matthew/7-21.htm - every mention of "the kingdom OF THE heavenS" is phrased just this way... not sure that is what your response is in reference to, tho]

It’s in reference to me not

The phrase 'read in context' is nowadays used when one wants to change the meaning to fit a particular doctrine.

Vs 36 is clear even on its own, you must persevere in doing the will of God and then after doing, you'll get God's promises.
No other verses, in context or out of context will change the meaning of vs 36 to teach that one gets God's promises first by thinking hard about Jesus and then does the will of God.

Noose, I have noticed that trick they use of "in context". Had it not been inscripturated, they would use that charge against 95% of the 400 times the Old Testament is quoted in the New. Seriously. Look at how it gets quoted in brief snippets and sometimes your mind initially thinks, "Is that really what the original author meant?" These neo-Pharisees would have ripped the New Testament writers to shreds for the way they used it. But it is the Word of God. Amen.

 

[Noose]

It’s in reference to me not
Noose, I have noticed that trick they use of "in context". Had it not been inscripturated, they would use that charge against 95% of the 400 times the Old Testament is quoted in the New. Seriously. Look at how it gets quoted in brief snippets and sometimes your mind initially thinks, "Is that really what the original author meant?" These neo-Pharisees would have ripped the New Testament writers to shreds for the way they used it. But it is the Word of God. Amen.

I have had this talk so many times and i know that their doctrine takes precedent. They'd rather think something around the bible so that their doctrine remains intact.

The bible says "... the one who perseveres to the end shall be saved". To them, the context is, "..the one who is saved, shall persevere to the end"

One person has insinuated that the eternal life being spoken of in Romans 2:7 is not the same eternal life being spoken of in other books. This kind of excuse is up there with the likes of, 'the dog ate my homework', isn't it?

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

I have had this talk so many times and i know that their doctrine takes precedent. They'd rather think something around the bible so that their doctrine remains intact.

The bible says "... the one who perseveres to the end shall be saved". To them, the context is, "..the one who is saved, shall persevere to the end"

Can they see what they are doing or has the god of this age blinded them so they are actually unaware?

 

[Noose]

Can they see what they are doing or has the god of this age blinded them so they are actually unaware?

They can not see. Used to be one of them. The environment plays a big role.

Myself, being forced out of the Church (got work in a 100% Islamic country- for the last 6.5 years now) helped me see the filth in my former church.

Isa 30:20Although the Lord gives you the bread of adversity and the water of affliction, your teachers will be hidden no more; with your own eyes you will see them. 21Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you, saying, “This is the way; walk in it.” 22Then you will desecrate your idols overlaid with silver and your images covered with gold; you will throw them away like a menstrual cloth and say to them, “Away with you!”

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I know you don't have to obey Him or take any of His warnings to us seriously, but I do. I remember His Word regarding those who will not accept our testimony about Him. I need to do what He said. There's no problem. Arguing and being insulting - not likely His will. As it's only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven that will enter Heaven, that needs to be my concern. Sincerely, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Dude you cannot even answer or respond to Colossians 2. So you have lost any right to slander me like your buddies due

i never said a word about not having to obey, so get off your high horse and Talk to me about col 2.or prove your just another religious zealot who wants to push people to follow a god who does not exist but in your own mind.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Just watched about 10 minutes of one of his born again children of God can lose their salvation and have their Heavenly Father toss them into Hell videos.

He used the 10 virgins parable to prove you could lose your salvation, and actually said that all 10 virgins had the Holy Spirit in them, but 5 just didn’t have enough!!!

I mean it would be beyond laughable if it wasn’t so sad.

They ran out of Holy Spirit like a guy forgetting to fill his Hummer before a long trip!

Wow, I mean wow.. and people buy that stuff?

 

[garee]

It would have been fascinating to hear trying to correct Jesus during His Earthly ministry had you been a Jewish Scribe 2000 years ago.

We have that inspired information as to how sola scriptura (all things written in the law and the prophets) made the law of the fathers without effect ending their murderous spree (kill the misperceived competition walking by sight ) . . . the religion of Cain. Out of sight out of mind. No faith needed. Instant gratification like in the garden ..

It is Exactly what they were trying to make the word of God without effect according to their own works of oral tradition. It back fired . it made their doctrine of men without effect. seeing no man can serve tow masters . The flesh seen and the Holy Spirit not seen.

The gospel is the power of God given to us from faith the unseen Christ's to faith Christ's the unseen.

Christ's faith that works in us is the gift. Previously having none not little.. . zero . No righteousness of our won.

For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.Romans1:16 -17

The word it in as it is written reveals the unseen faith of God that does work in us to both will and do his good pleasure..

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Can they see what they are doing or has the god of this age blinded them so they are actually unaware?

You need to look in the mirror my friend

the person who has been blinded may just be you

i mean you can not even respond to col2. That in itself should give you pause.

 

[RebuildJesussChurch]

Dude you cannot even answer or respond to Colossians 2. So you have lost any right to slander me like your buddies due

i never said a word about not having to obey, so get off your high horse and Talk to me about col 2.or prove your just another religious zealot who wants to push people to follow a god who does not exist but in your own mind.

Good News! Jesus Christ can cleanse men’s hearts from all the things coming from within them making them unclean like bitterness, rage and anger. Men do not have to remain slaves to sin! They can then take His yoke upon them and follow Him in true faith which cleaves unto Him. Such men have been commanded not to quarrel, which is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Praise the Lord.

 

[NayborBear]

Is that sinless perfectionism I smell?

Sounds just like what a scribe er pharasee would have said to Jesus.

Which is sad. Are we not all "striving" to be just as much "formed into the image of Christ?" whilst we're here on this earth, as we can be? Or not.

Jez wonderin'.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Good News! Jesus Christ can cleanse men’s hearts from all the things coming from within them making them unclean like bitterness, rage and anger. Men do not have to remain slaves to sin! They can then take His yoke upon them and follow Him in true faith which cleaves unto Him. Such men have been commanded not to quarrel, which is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. Praise the Lord.

Yep he can

and he does

and he did me

when will you allow him to do that to you?

i am not quarelling

you mentioned col 2 I your post about baptism

i called you to discuss it

you refuse

your the one quarelling, because you refuse to discuss

 

[NayborBear]

The wisdom of the wise will perish, the intelligence of the intelligent will disappear. I Cor. 1:20 and following...and where is the theologian of this day as well? I wish the lives of those who post could be displayed as well, know what I mean? We would see who has been set free from sin and who is led by the Spirit; who has crucified the sinful nature and whose mind in controlled by the Spirit. Much debating would cease since the Kingdom of God does not consist in words but in power.

Didn't you know man, that the only POWER that is "recognized" by so many people isn't found in writings of print inside some forum?

Or that "theologians" "appeal" to those possessing similar levels of vanity (sheepskins), in order to "appear" wise?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Okay, got knocked offline for a bit... lemme try again...
You are saying that v.14 is okay with that definition, because it IS "perfect INDICATIVE"...

P.S. I do recall making the same point with regard to the verb "G1764 enestēken/enistémi - 'is present' [perfect indicative]," in 2 Thessalonians 2:2, so I "get" that (re: "time" and the definition [I had supplied] of "Perfect Tense" with the "Indicative"... I'm remembering that, and now will "think" about the instance of the "Perfect Participle" and consider Wm Kelly's point regarding that verse. Thx, Angela! ).

 

[NayborBear]

Thanks for your opinion and that of Gaebelin but eternal life in Romans is not different from eternal life in John and neither is it different from the promise in Hebrews which one only obtains after doing the will of God.

Doesn't it seem "so eerily" strange, that every thread pertaining to "things condusive towards spiritual maturity", becomes "invaded by the kiddies", into this game of "Whacka-mo", "saved by grace...not by works?"

That any "hint" of spiritual maturity, instantly becomes their "next" target, of "obtaining, or maintaing" one's salvation?

I believe it's because they are more scared of being wrong, then in their "taking responsibility." Which would require "efforts/works", in "moving beyond" the "principle doctrines of Christ" towards "perfection." aka "maturity."

The reason I believe, is because they can't "see" or "hear", or refuse to see, or hear God speaking: "Waiting for "input from the user!" Continue? Cancel?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The bible says "... the one who perseveres to the end shall be saved". To them, the context is, "..the one who is saved, shall persevere to the end"

No, this is not what *I* have said is the context (recall, I am NEITHER "Calvinist" [who WOULD say such a thing] NOR "Arminianist"! You may not recall my saying that, repeatedly )

The context is the "future, specific, limited time period leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom [which *specific* future, limited "time period" FOLLOWS "our Rapture" and pertains to Israel, to whom the earthly kingdom *was promised*--those "WISE [of Israel]" who *WILL HAVE* come to faith IN/DURING the/those trib years, FOLLOWING our Rapture, and the "guests [plural]" (i.e. Gentiles) who "accept the INVITATION" to it! (i.e. also "come to faith"]);

--the passage has a specific application (we are not to just randomly "apply" things willy-nilly, but instead, we are called to "correctly apportion the word of truth"--I find that sorely lacking in those who, for example, MISS-APPLY the "10 Virgins [PLURAL]" parable by saying THEY are whom Jesus is coming to MARRY [whacked doctrine, "10 or even 5 Virgins [PLURAL]!" to MARRY?? Hello!] No.

This, instead, pertains to "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" (their entrance into the EARTHLY MK age, upon His "RETURN"--see again what I pointed out, in Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44, "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding" [i.e. as an "ALREADY-WED Bridegroom" (per Rev19:7) THEN the meal [aka the EARTHLY MK age, they will ENTER in *MORTAL* bodies[capable of reproducing/bearing children], meaning, those who are STILL-LIVING at the END of the trib, like Daniel 12:13 refers to [not 12:12; and not Rev20:4b regarding those who will have physically DIED and thus be "resurrected" to bodies which will NOT be capable of reproducing/bearing children, but will "be like the angels"]

One person has insinuated that the eternal life being spoken of in Romans 2:7 is not the same eternal life being spoken of in other books. This kind of excuse is up there with the likes of, 'the dog ate my homework', isn't it?

No, this is not the point I was making there.

Try again.

 

[NayborBear]

I know you don't have to obey Him or take any of His warnings to us seriously, but I do. I remember His Word regarding those who will not accept our testimony about Him. I need to do what He said. There's no problem. Arguing and being insulting - not likely His will. As it's only those who do the will of the Father in Heaven that will enter Heaven, that needs to be my concern. Sincerely, in the name of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

It seems some people have "deleted" the word NOT in verse 21!

..... but he that DOETH THE WILL of my Father which is in heaven.

WoW!.....I may be wrong here, but doesn't "DOING" indicate (egadz!) WORKS?

Funny! I don't see any mention of salvation here!