WHO ARE THE ELECT?

[feedm3]

Abraham was not saved by obeying a patriarchal law. From moses to Christ. no one was saved by obeying the law of moses. and from Christ till today, no one is saved by obeying the new testamnt law. thus your whole argument is fruitless.

Rom_6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom_10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Gal_3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal_5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Yea we will not be saved if we believe we must obey,
your argument is just plain foolishness.
Thats why you keep posting acting as if you have not already been proven wrong, condtridiced yourself, and have shown the inconsisenty in your argument.


You mean like this?

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,

Notice here. Paul is talking about ALL TIME SINCE CREATION. BEFORE THE LAW WAS GIVEN! This includes the time of Abraham. Abraham chose not to be foolish, and took what God showed, and believed, and because of it, he was saved. NO ONE HAS EXCUSE. do you understand what that means? No one since creation. LONG before the law was given!

Yes even those with out law have knowledge of a creator by the the things that are made, so how much more shall we not have an excuse who have the written word.

James?? you mean zero works = zero salvation?

Any works that we willfully disobey, disobedience is sin, your are sinning in what you are teaching.

That is what the bible teaches. To say you must obay God is to put yourself under law. Plain and simple.

Are you under the law of Christ or not? simple question.

lol. again you twist things. Your arguing against the licentious. the same people James fought against. And if that were our topic. I would agree with you 100 %, because I would fight a licentious gospel as hard as I fight a legalistic gospel. The thing is, there are very few licentious people I know who teach this.

A person who is truly saved (has faith) would not even think of not obeying. why? Because they know they are guilty, and they know God wants them to change. and they will change out of gratitude for what God did for them.

Ok, well if you beleive that true faith is seen by works, and no works is dead faith, and that God saves one based on his knowledge of thier working future, you believe in a works salvation.

Hebrews was written to jewish (hebrew) Christians. and refuting what other jews were doing. Trying to add law to grace. You can't see this. that is your problem.

Here is a perfect example of your flip flopping. How can the be Jewish "Christians" if they are not a member of Christ's church?
You said Hebrews was not written to the church, but now you say it was written to Christians.
Please explain to me how that can be?
I am not going to overlook your wishy washy statements anymore, please tells me how someone can write a group of Christians, but not be writing the church.

The things of God are foolishness. You think it is easy. It is not as easy as you want it to be. It is NOT saying what you are saying, period!

What do you mean "the things of god are foolishness"?

It is easy to understand, it's when the messengers of Satan come and "vain words and fair speeches decieve the hearts of the simple".
You interpretation are a perfect example of this in action.

yeah he is, if your trying animal sacrifice top seek forgiveness and sin willingly. Your wasting your time. Why do you thinki the author went over and over about animal sacrifice?

Yet "forsaking the assembly" was the sin he was mentioning, read the previous verse.

In fact none of them were trying to sacrifice animals, they were Christians.
In fact he showing them in Ch. 10 how the law was a "shadow" of the thing to come in the NT.
This does not mean any of them were trying to use animal sacrifice.
COntext COntext Context

For the sake of others?

You said that since it said to the church it was written to them. It also said it was written to Christ and to the sprinkling of blood. I used yourt example and reasoning. and it is not ok?? That is called hypocracy.

ps.. why do you never respond to the james vs paul arguments? is it because you know you have no argument against what I said?

Man what are you saying, was Hebrews written to the church or not?
Im sick of the flip flop, above you say written to Christians, before you not written to the church but those under the law??????

I have responded to James and Paul, multiple times, I even in an earlier post broke down the entire ch.2 of Eph, you just dont care, you are mad because I have cornered you, you have no way out and you believe in a works salvation. This angers you so you keep posting hoping no one will notice you have been shut down in you arguments.

 

[Forest]

James is not talking to people who are not doers. Read chapter 1.
He is warning them of those who are not doers, and showing them they are deceived in thinking they have salvation.
He is proving that all Christians MUST perform works (obedience) or they have dead faith, in which they will not be saved.
If you consider baptism a work, then you are saved while still in your sins according to Acts 22:16.
That is plain.


That is pure assumption as he does not accuse them of doing such things but warning them not to.
This was written to Christians, if what you say is true, then it was written to non-Christians. That being the first letter we have addressed to non-Christians.

Paul did not speak of anyone if your referring to Eph 2: He warned them as well not to think they deserved God's grace.
Again did not tell them that they did not have to obey God.
In fact the Eph tells us the opposite.
Some work? I said we must obey God in all areas to the best of our ability.
James did not need to say how many works we can forsake before its counted as zero faith.


No, they are not saved because of one of two reasons.


lol, so those who think "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" is literal and a command we must all do,
And think that because the early church took the Lord's supper upon the first day of the week, we should also do it in that manner,
And think because Heb 10:25 says not "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" that we should go to church as obedience to God,
and think that because Heb 5:9 says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all the obey" that we should really obey,
They are doomed and Christ never knew us, foolish people who though they MUST obey God?

But if I know I do not really have to be baptized, take communion, assemble with brethren, or obey despite the scriptures, I will be saved because my trust is in God and not man.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
You continue to amaze me.
You have NO FEAR .

Anyway, it's wed, almost time for me to assemble with my brethren, I will be gone for a while, or maybe I should not, because if I feel I am doing this in obedience to God, I am sinning by going to worship God.
Wow.
You need to read Jam 3:1 - its below in my sig.

When on the road to Damaskas Paul was already born again of the Spirit. The first part of chapter 22 in verse 3 Paul says that he was zealous toward God (Greek trans-most eagerly desirous toward God). The natural man will not be desirous of a spiritual God 1 Cor 2:14.

 

[Forest]

Rom_6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom_10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Gal_3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal_5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Yea we will not be saved if we believe we must obey,
your argument is just plain foolishness.
Thats why you keep posting acting as if you have not already been proven wrong, condtridiced yourself, and have shown the inconsisenty in your argument.


You mean like this?


Yes even those with out law have knowledge of a creator by the the things that are made, so how much more shall we not have an excuse who have the written word.



Any works that we willfully disobey, disobedience is sin, your are sinning in what you are teaching.




Are you under the law of Christ or not? simple question.


Ok, well if you beleive that true faith is seen by works, and no works is dead faith, and that God saves one based on his knowledge of thier working future, you believe in a works salvation.


Here is a perfect example of your flip flopping. How can the be Jewish "Christians" if they are not a member of Christ's church?
You said Hebrews was not written to the church, but now you say it was written to Christians.
Please explain to me how that can be?
I am not going to overlook your wishy washy statements anymore, please tells me how someone can write a group of Christians, but not be writing the church.



What do you mean "the things of god are foolishness"?

It is easy to understand, it's when the messengers of Satan come and "vain words and fair speeches decieve the hearts of the simple".
You interpretation are a perfect example of this in action.



Yet "forsaking the assembly" was the sin he was mentioning, read the previous verse.

In fact none of them were trying to sacrifice animals, they were Christians.
In fact he showing them in Ch. 10 how the law was a "shadow" of the thing to come in the NT.
This does not mean any of them were trying to use animal sacrifice.
COntext COntext Context





Man what are you saying, was Hebrews written to the church or not?
Im sick of the flip flop, above you say written to Christians, before you not written to the church but those under the law??????

I have responded to James and Paul, multiple times, I even in an earlier post broke down the entire ch.2 of Eph, you just dont care, you are mad because I have cornered you, you have no way out and you believe in a works salvation. This angers you so you keep posting hoping no one will notice you have been shut down in you arguments.

2 Tim 2:13, If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful, he cannot deny himself. Eph 3:13, But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Rom_6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom_10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
Gal_3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Gal_5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

lets just look at one of those passages. Gal.

context. Galation church had turned to a different Gospel. which was not from God (gal 1)

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

then we come to ch 3. And again, I find it funny you pic one verse out of a passage and refuse to look at context. But that is typical of people who want to twist scripture to support their own faulty belief.

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

why you can't see this is beyond me.

1. did they receive spirit by works of law or faith and baptism and obeying Gods commands? Oh wait it says just faith!
2. again we come to abraham, He had faith, no works involved. no patriarchal law. no law whatsoever, and no works whatsoever.
3. God taught abraham the gospel in which gentiles would be saved? What gospel? where is baptism and the law given to abraham?
4. obey:

Πειθώ, -οῦς, ἡ,
1. Peitho, prop. name of a goddess, lit. Persuasion; Lat. Suada or Suadela.
2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Co. 2:4 ἐν πειθοῖ—acc. to certain inferior authorities. [On the word, see Müller’s note on Joseph. c. Ap. 2, 21, 3. (Hes., Hdt., al.)]*
πείθω [(fr. r. meaning ‘to bind’; allied w. πίστις, fides, foedus, etc.; Curtius § 327; Vaniček p. 592)]; impf. ἔπειθον; fut. πείσω; 1 aor. ἔπεισα; 2 pf. πέποιθα; plupf. ἐπεποίθειν (Lk. 11:22); Pass. [or Mid., pres. πείθομαι; impf. ἐπειθόμην]; pf. πέπεισμαι; 1 aor. ἐπείσθην; 1 fut. πεισθήσομαι (Lk. 16:31); fr. Hom. down;
1. Active;
a. to persuade, i. e. to induce one by words to believe: absol. πείσας μετέστησεν ἱκανὸν ὄχλον, Acts 19:26; τί, to cause belief in a thing (which one sets forth), Acts 19:8 R G T [cf. B. 150 (131) n.] (Soph. O. C. 1442); περί w. gen. of the thing, ibid. L Tr WH; τινά, one, Acts 18:4; τινά τι, one of a thing, Acts 28:23 Rec. (Hdt. 1, 163; Plat. apol. p. 37 a., and elsewhere; [cf. B. u. s.]); τινὰ περί τινος, concerning a thing, ibid. G L T Tr WH.
b. as in class. Grk. fr. Hom. down, w. an acc. of a pers., to make friends of, win one’s favor, gain one’s good-will, Acts 12:20; or to seek to win one, strive to please one, 2 Co. 5:11; Gal. 1:10; to conciliate by persuasion, Mt. 28:14 [here T WH om. Tr br. αὐτόν]; Acts 14:19; i. q. to tranquillize [A. V. assure], τὰς καρδίας ἡμῶν, 1 Jn. 3:19.
c. to persuade unto i. e. move or induce one by persuasion to do something: τινά foll. by an inf. [B. § 139, 46], Acts 13:43; 26:28, (Xen. an. 1, 3, 19; Polyb. 4, 64, 2; Diod. 11, 15; 12, 39; Joseph. antt. 8, 10, 3); τινά foll. by ἵνα [cf. W. 338 (317); B. § 139, 46], Mt. 27:20 [Plut. apoph. Alex. 21].
2. Passive and Middle [cf. W. 253 (238)];
a. to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: absol., Lk. 16:31; Acts 17:4; to have faith, Heb. 11:13 Rec; τινί, in a thing, Acts 28:24; to believe, sc. ὅτι, Heb. 13:18 L T Tr WH. πέπεισμαί τι [on the neut. acc. cf. B. § 131, 10] περί τινος (gen. of pers.), to be persuaded (of) a thing concerning a person, Heb. 6:9 [A. V. we are persuaded better things of you, etc.]; πεπεισμένος εἰμί, to have persuaded one’s self, and πείθομαι, to believe, [cf. Eng. to be persuaded], foll. by acc. w. inf., Lk. 20:6; Acts 26:26; πέπει

σμαι ὅτι, Ro. 8:38; 2 Tim. 1:5, 12; with ἐν κυρίῳ added (see ἐν, I. 6 b.), Ro. 14:14; περί τινος ὅτι, Ro. 15:14.
b. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with: τινί, one, Acts 5:36 sq. 39 (40); 23:21; 27:11; Ro. 2:8; Gal. 3:1 Rec; 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3.
3. 2 pf. πέποιθα (Sept. mostly for בָּטַח, also for חָסָה, נִשְׁעַן Niphal of the unused שָׁעַ&#1503, intrans. to trust, have confidence, be confident: foll. by acc. w


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (497). New York: Harper & Brothers.

So to obey is to be persuaded of a truth. Paul is talking about the gospel. what is the gospel> Believe in th ename of Christ, and you will be saved. That all who believe will be saved. Call out on the name of the lord and you will be saved. For by grace we are saved through faith. and not of yourself, it is the GIFT of God.

So to obey is to be persuaded of the truth. If we add works. we have no obeyed the gospel.

Keep twisting things, all your doing is trying to convince yourself.

I will answer more later when i have time

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes even those with out law have knowledge of a creator by the the things that are made, so how much more shall we not have an excuse who have the written word.

what does that have to do with what I said? Do you mind sticking on topic! the point is. they had the law written in their hearts. Cain and Abel had the same gospel we have. they were not saved or not saved any different than we are.

Any works that we willfully disobey, disobedience is sin, your are sinning in what you are teaching.

1. What does this have to do with what I said about James? (zero works = zero salvation) did he not say this, or did he say not enough works.. which is it??
2. sin? What tells us what sin is? is it not the law? So are you putting us all under law? why do you keep ignoring the facts. You did not answer james at all. and everyone who reads this thread sees it!

Are you under the law of Christ or not? simple question.

I am, because I was born again, But I did not get that way by following any law. Why are you trying to put yourself back under law. What did Jesus say the law consisted of? two commands, Love the Lord your God with all your heart. If you do this, you will WANT to do all he says, Which would include all the NT commands. so all commands of God are included in the law of moses, which God said could never save anyone. Yet you want to place yourself back under law. Why are you worshiping a spirit of fear. and not a father?

Ok, well if you beleive that true faith is seen by works, and no works is dead faith, and that God saves one based on his knowledge of thier working future, you believe in a works salvation.

Dude. I don't know what you problem is, But you continuing to twist everything I say is getting old. Are you that pridefull that you can't see anything I say?

1. I never said God saved on knowledge of future work. I said he HAS KNOWLEDGE of future work., I also said God saves on faith. God knows what true faith is. True faith WILL produce work. Not because God knows it, Or that God demands it. But because true faith will work out of a gratitude of thanks. A person who has truely repented understand he is in sin, And needs to change. A person who has not repented will not understand these things. that is why they will live licentious lifestyles and no work will be seen.

2. Can you show me how few works James states would be required to be considered a dead faith? Is it 1, 2, 5, 10, 100. What is the guideline james used? It is not about what I say, it is about what James said.

Here is a perfect example of your flip flopping. How can the be Jewish "Christians" if they are not a member of Christ's church?
You said Hebrews was not written to the church, but now you say it was written to Christians.
Please explain to me how that can be?
I am not going to overlook your wishy washy statements anymore, please tells me how someone can write a group of Christians, but not be writing the church.

And here you go again twisting my words. I said Hebrews was written to jews. I never claimed they were not christian. Hebrews did not have to be written to gentile churches. although there are things in it we can use. It was not directed to us. it was directed to jews who were trying to revert back to ceremonial law.

why do you keep twisting things? Are you afraid you have nothing against me, so you have to revert to ad hominem attacks and things which do not pertain to our discussion? You are really getting old!

What do you mean "the things of god are foolishness"?

It is easy to understand, it's when the messengers of Satan come and "vain words and fair speeches decieve the hearts of the simple".
You interpretation are a perfect example of this in action.

Yet I can prove my interpretation in context. All you do is take small tidbits of words, take them out of context. and demand that you are right and everyone else in wrong.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

He is warning them of those who are not doers, and showing them they are deceived in thinking they have salvation.

Thank you, you finally get it! They are deceived in thinking they are saved, because they believe. But as james said, Even demons believe and yet tremble. he is showing the difference between mere believe and true faith.

He is proving that all Christians MUST perform works (obedience) or they have dead faith, in which they will not be saved.

Then you completely destroy it. So again I ask you. HOW FEW WORKS DID JAMES SAY WOULD CONSTITUTE A DEAD FAITH?

If I have 10 works, do I have a death faith?
if I just get baptized and do a few other things do I have a dead faith?
If I follow all the requirements of the roman catholic church (which has far more redeeming works than any other church in history? do I have a dead faith
If I do more work than you, but less than my friend. which one of us has a dead faith? and are thus not saved?
if I commit more sin than you, but less than my friend, which one of us has a dead faith?

lets hear it!

If you consider baptism a work, then you are saved while still in your sins according to Acts 22:16.
That is plain.

there are two baptisms. One is the work of God (the HS) one is the work of men (water) which one saves? the work of men or of God. be carefull when you answer this!

and NO they are not the same.

That is pure assumption as he does not accuse them of doing such things but warning them not to.
This was written to Christians, if what you say is true, then it was written to non-Christians. That being the first letter we have addressed to non-Christians.

James 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

So let me guess, you think James was addressing this to people who were proving their faith by their works? Let me help you some, if your going to make comments. at least study what you are saying. it would also help you to understand what those you are discussing scripture with actually think. It will help you not to make so many mistakes!

James makes it VERY CLEAR what he is saying!

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

I asked a few times. and will ask again.James said, "does not have works", How few works would this consititute?

Are you going to answer. or go off into more tangents, never answering the question?

Paul did not speak of anyone if your referring to Eph 2: He warned them as well not to think they deserved God's grace.

almost everyone of Pauls letter dealt in some way with jews trying to add works to grace to earn salvation. You deny this?

and as for eph 2, you mean people like you, who are trying to earn Gods grace by working for it?

Again did not tell them that they did not have to obey God. In fact the Eph tells us the opposite.

It does? For by grace we are saved by obeying Gods commands, and being baptized. And of all the works, so that we may be puffed up in pride as we have done what God asked us to do.

Sorry I do not see that in my bible. maybe it is in yours?

Some work? I said we must obey God in all areas to the best of our ability.

I agree we should do this very thing. The problem is if we are depending on these actions to save us, we will "fall short of the glory of God" why? because we can never live up to Gods standard. EVER, thus we would always fall short on our own merit. This is your problem, Your pride will not allow you to see you will never live up to the standard God imposed to be saved on your own merit and works.Thus, like the pharisees, you can't see how truly sinfull you are. which is why you have not repented, and still think you ar somehow worthy of earning Gods grace. When you come to this point, Then and only then, can you understand Gods grace.

James did not need to say how many works we can forsake before its counted as zero faith.

yet he did, over and over. why are you refusing to answer what he said? Why would James not need to answer? is he supposed to leave us wondering who is saved and who is not by the amount of work they have done?

lol, so those who think "arise and be baptized and wash away your sins" is literal and a command we must all do,
And think that because the early church took the Lord's supper upon the first day of the week, we should also do it in that manner,
And think because Heb 10:25 says not "forsaking the assembling of ourselves together" that we should go to church as obedience to God,
and think that because Heb 5:9 says Jesus is the author of eternal salvation unto all the obey" that we should really obey,
They are doomed and Christ never knew us, foolish people who though they MUST obey God?

But if I know I do not really have to be baptized, take communion, assemble with brethren, or obey despite the scriptures, I will be saved because my trust is in God and not man.

That is the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my life.
You continue to amaze me.
You have NO FEAR

Here is the difference between you and me my friend. You think you have to do them in order to be saved, or God will reject you and condemn you for eternity.

I do them Because I am gratefull to Gods grace, his love, and the forgiveness he has granted me based on the work of his son.

You my friend live in fear. You do those things out of fear. I do them out of gratitude. why? because I am led by the spirit.

14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

Those who are under law are under bondage to obey the law. Whatever law that may be, failure to live up to that standard will require rejection and condemnation. So they have to fear, lest they fail to hit the mark.

Those adopted by God have no fear. They understand God loved them, Forgave them, and although we will fail from time to time, as all Children do. God will never leave us, or forsake us.

As scripture says, When we are faithless, he is faithful. Why? He can not deny himself. If he Denys his own promise, he Denys himself.

Paul tells us we have the "hope of eternal life" Hebrews tells us FAITH is the substance of things HOPED FOR, the evidence of things NOT SEEN.

A work can be seen. Thus faith can not be in works.
Eternal life and the promise given to God, can not be seen. it is the HOPE of all who HAVE FAITH.

What did Paul tell us about our hope of eternal life?

"which God, WHO CAN NOT LIE, Promised before time began.

if my hope is based on living up to a standard by obeying a set of rules and regulations. I have no hope. because I can never know if I will ever live up to that standard. Thus I can never have a hope of eternal life. Because I can never know I have it.

 

[feedm3]

Thank you, you finally get it! They are deceived in thinking they are saved, because they believe. But as james said, Even demons believe and yet tremble. he is showing the difference between mere believe and true faith.

You want to have your cake and eat it too.
You are trying to hold to you belief of faith only, and reconcile James and Paul. In trying to do so you have shown you do not believe in faith only. If you would have did like Luther, you should have just rejected James or said you dont understand it(which we know you would never say).

Here we have two men, both believing that Christ came and died for their sins:
You say if one has faith, and believes he is NOT saved by his faith + works, then he is saved
The other man, has faith(belief that Christ came...) and works, but believes he MUST do the works God commanded or he will not be saved - He is not saved according to you.

So you dont believe in "faith only" but faith+works+knowing you are not saved by works = salvation.

You said I am not saved because I believe I MUSt Obey God to get to heaven.

Who makes the choice to believe if MUST work for salvation, or If works to not bring salvation?
We do.
So you are saving yourself in believing that works do not bring salvation, this is NOT the faith only doctrine, you have made a new one.

And in yours, works show if you have true faith, you cannot be saved with dead faith, but you must do the works to show true faith(???), and what you believe concerning the works makes all the difference in Salvation.

wow.

Then you completely destroy it. So again I ask you. HOW FEW WORKS DID JAMES SAY WOULD CONSTITUTE A DEAD FAITH?

If I have 10 works, do I have a death faith?
if I just get baptized and do a few other things do I have a dead faith?
If I follow all the requirements of the roman catholic church (which has far more redeeming works than any other church in history? do I have a dead faith
If I do more work than you, but less than my friend. which one of us has a dead faith? and are thus not saved?
if I commit more sin than you, but less than my friend, which one of us has a dead faith?

lets hear it!

Notice how I answer you: Try answering the questin I asked concerning Hebrews, or dont ask me anything.
I just want to know how the letter of Hebrews can be written to Christians and yet not the church?

James gave us an example of not feeding or clothing a brother or sister who was in need..only saying "be warmed and filled" yet doing nothing.
Now why would that be a sin - because it violates what Christ taught, and what the Apostles taught concerning how we should to good to the brethren (not excluding non Christians.)
Is what James said about works only limited to that scenario?
Does that mean I can do what I want as long as I feed and cloth the brother who comes to my door?

NO the sin is in not fulfill what God has told you to do.
If you want to count, if I have done 10 things God has told me do, Im I saved, while completely forsaking 10 other things God has told you to do, then no you are not saved, you are purposely disobeying.

"Arise and be baptized washing away your sins, calling upon the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.
what if I do everything else in the Bible, but not this?
No I show I do not believe God.
I remain in my sin.

If after I wash away my sins, which adds me to the church, and buries me with Christ, I decide that I dont want to go to worship, I dont want to do any benevolence, don't want to give as I prosper will I be saved?
If I confess my sins and repent of them yes, that is the great thing about Christ shedding his blood of us.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light, his blood cleaneth us" it continues to cleans us.
But if I never repent, and keep this disobedient attitude, then I wll have to answer for it on judgement day -

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

we will "receive" i.e. be recompensed (reward or punishment) according to the good "things" or the bad "things" we have "done" "in" our bodies.

Things done in body = works, evil or good.

You say it depends on how we view these works, if we believe we must do them to be accepted in heaven then we will be lost.

all you have done is added a work of man to the list. He must have the right believe of why he is doing works according to you.


I dont read that anywhere.

there are two baptisms. One is the work of God (the HS) one is the work of men (water) which one saves? the work of men or of God. be carefull when you answer this!

and NO they are not the same.

1. You have already shown in other post you do not understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is.
2. So if a man carrys out a command of God, that makes it a work of man?
3. How does man wash away your sins? - acts 22:16
HOw does man add you to the church? Acts 2:47
how does man put you in christ? Gal 3:27.
Who commanded baptism - God or man?
See your argument is already faulty. You think baptism is a work of man. that is sad.

Now concerning HS baptism - Even those who were baptized with the HS were also commanded to be baptized in water.
The HS baptism is only found 2x int he NT.
The promise of the spirit is not the HS baptism.
Read Acts ch. 2 and 10 to see the baptism of the HS.

Today we are not promised the Baptism of the HS, therefore as paul said there is one baptism, it is "the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" - the "one baptism" - Eph 4:-5.

I will answer the rest after you clear up your contradiction in Hebrews.


I believe and I am baptized, but not saved due to my thinking I must be baptized to go to heaven?
You are saved because you believed, and have works, but know the works are non-essential to salvation?
So salvation depends on how you interpret scripture, making it yet another work according to you.
Since it is not God who makes that choice for us, you are putting your faith in what you believe concerning works.

After all, one who is working the good works of God is showing he believes, but one who working the good works of God and thinking he must do it in obedience to inherit heaven he is placing faith in himself and is doomed. Yet you are doing the exact same thing in saying your not doomed becasue of Your interpretation of works, so you are adding another work.

There is you doctrine exposed, because you tried to have your cake and eat it too with James and Paul.

IF wrong then PROVE IT, because I can each of your quotes that draw these conclusions, if you want I will post them all together so you can understand what you are teaching.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

You want to have your cake and eat it too.
You are trying to hold to you belief of faith only, and reconcile James and Paul. In trying to do so you have shown you do not believe in faith only. If you would have did like Luther, you should have just rejected James or said you dont understand it(which we know you would never say).

blah blah blah. Luther got rid of james because he did not understand it. if he did, he would have kept it because it agreed with him. However I refuse to twist james and make him fit my belief. I am still waiting for you to even answer the questions about james, all you do is make ad hominem, you have not done anything but prove you want to argue. and it is getting gold. not just for me, but I am sure the whole forum!

Here we have two men, both believing that Christ came and died for their sins:
You say if one has faith, and believes he is NOT saved by his faith + works, then he is saved
The other man, has faith(belief that Christ came...) and works, but believes he MUST do the works God commanded or he will not be saved - He is not saved according to you.

No, he is not saved according to God. Because, like the jew who rejected Christ. he thinks he is made right with God by his works. Thus he rejects the death of Christ as his only means of salvation. He is trusting self, and not God.

So you dont believe in "faith only" but faith+works+knowing you are not saved by works = salvation.

What? is this how you do things? do you always twist peoples words. what you said here does not even make sense!

You said I am not saved because I believe I MUSt Obey God to get to heaven.

I can't judge your salvation. Only God can. I can say if your depending on your works of righteousness to save you, and teaching that gospel. You are believing in a false gospel of works. God will judge your faith.

Who makes the choice to believe if MUST work for salvation, or If works to not bring salvation?
We do.

No God does. you don't even get this? Man can not save us, and we can not save ourselves. if we could Christ would not have had to come.

So you are saving yourself in believing that works do not bring salvation, this is NOT the faith only doctrine, you have made a new one.

Again, this makes no sense. can you speak English?

And in yours, works show if you have true faith, you cannot be saved with dead faith, but you must do the works to show true faith(???), and what you believe concerning the works makes all the difference in Salvation.

wow.

Why do you refuse to answer? How much work does james state these people have?

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Are you afraid to answer? Your argument is with james, not me!

Notice how I answer you: Try answering the questin I asked concerning Hebrews, or dont ask me anything.
I just want to know how the letter of Hebrews can be written to Christians and yet not the church?

continuing to twist. What was the context of Hebrews? Jews who were trying to revert to ceremonial law. This is who it was written to. Are you trying to return to ceremonial law?

James gave us an example of not feeding or clothing a brother or sister who was in need..only saying "be warmed and filled" yet doing nothing.
Now why would that be a sin - because it violates what Christ taught, and what the Apostles taught concerning how we should to good to the brethren (not excluding non Christians.)
Is what James said about works only limited to that scenario?
Does that mean I can do what I want as long as I feed and cloth the brother who comes to my door?

Yes. This is what the people james spoke of were doing. What else were they doing that showed they had a mere belief, but no faith? why did James command them to prove (show) their faith by works? he could not say this if they had been doing ANY work at all now could he? or do you want to twist that to?

NO the sin is in not fulfill what God has told you to do.
If you want to count, if I have done 10 things God has told me do, Im I saved, while completely forsaking 10 other things God has told you to do, then no you are not saved, you are purposely disobeying.

Then I am under law and not under grace.

"Arise and be baptized washing away your sins, calling upon the name of the Lord" - Acts 22:16.
what if I do everything else in the Bible, but not this?
No I show I do not believe God.
I remain in my sin.

If we break even the least of all the commands we have been found guilty of the whole law. So tell me, How many white lies, or times have you lusted or wanted in your mind? And everytime you do this, you want me to believe God takes his gift back? What Kind of god is he. according to your senario. no man could be saved.

If after I wash away my sins, which adds me to the church, and buries me with Christ, I decide that I dont want to go to worship, I dont want to do any benevolence, don't want to give as I prosper will I be saved?
If I confess my sins and repent of them yes, that is the great thing about Christ shedding his blood of us.
"if we walk in the light as he is in the light, his blood cleaneth us" it continues to cleans us.
But if I never repent, and keep this disobedient attitude, then I wll have to answer for it on judgement day -

Again, your placing yourself under law. The very thing Paul condemned you are teaching, and you can't even see it.

2Co 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

we will "receive" i.e. be recompensed (reward or punishment) according to the good "things" or the bad "things" we have "done" "in" our bodies.

Things done in body = works, evil or good.

You say it depends on how we view these works, if we believe we must do them to be accepted in heaven then we will be lost.

all you have done is added a work of man to the list. He must have the right believe of why he is doing works according to you.

You do understand there are two judgments do you not? This judgment is the BEMA judgment, It is where people are rewarded , or lose reward, based on their works. 1 Cor 12 paul tells us of these rewards. if our work endures, we will be rewarded gold silver precious stones, if it does not, our work will be burned. but what did Paul say? but he himself will be condemned to hell, because he did not work hard enough? Well if we listen to you we would think so. But no. Paul says this person that lost his reward in the fire WILL BE SAVED, EVEN THOUGH AS THOUGH THROUGH FIRE.

This is not the judgment on the unbeliever. he will get no reward but one, eternal condemnation. because they did not get baptized? did not go to church? did not take communion? No, because they did not believe (have faith) in Christ.

1. You have already shown in other post you do not understand what the baptism of the Holy Spirit is.
2. So if a man carrys out a command of God, that makes it a work of man?
3. How does man wash away your sins? - acts 22:16
HOw does man add you to the church? Acts 2:47
how does man put you in christ? Gal 3:27.
Who commanded baptism - God or man?
See your argument is already faulty. You think baptism is a work of man. that is sad.

You have no clue what baptism of the hs is. You don;t even understand what the greek word baptizo means, you assume it automatically means water, even though no greek speaking person would have even thought of water just because they saw the word.

Now concerning HS baptism - Even those who were baptized with the HS were also commanded to be baptized in water.

AMEN! Yes they were. As well as being commanded to do MANY MANY MANY other things.

But the baptism in water, or the other things did not save them. The baptism of the spirit DID! (titus 3: 5. we are washed BY THE SPIRIT. not physical water!

The HS baptism is only found 2x int he NT.
The promise of the spirit is not the HS baptism.
Read Acts ch. 2 and 10 to see the baptism of the HS.

You are wrong

1. it was mentioned and prophesied by John the baptist (he will baptize with the HS0
2. It was fortold by Jesus (you will be baptised by the HS and this included ALL PEOPLE)
3. Yes, the promise of the spirit is not the baptism. It is on account of the baptism that we recieve him. One who is not made clean BY GOD can not recieve the HS.

Today we are not promised the Baptism of the HS, therefore as paul said there is one baptism, it is "the baptism in the name of the Lord Jesus" - the "one baptism" - Eph 4:-5.

WRONG. nice way to twist Gods word. So you would trust a baptsim in water by a mere sinner who also needs christ over a baptism performed By God himself into the death and burial of Christ (rom 6) and Gods church (1 cor 12) were our sins are washed and we are made pure (titus 3: 5)

and you say it is not a work of men?

forgive me if I place my faith in the work of GOD, and NOT MEN!

I will answer the rest after you clear up your contradiction in Hebrews.

you mean YOUR OCNTRADICTIONS!

I believe and I am baptized, but not saved due to my thinking I must be baptized to go to heaven?
You are saved because you believed, and have works, but know the works are non-essential to salvation?
So salvation depends on how you interpret scripture, making it yet another work according to you.
Since it is not God who makes that choice for us, you are putting your faith in what you believe concerning works.

After all, one who is working the good works of God is showing he believes, but one who working the good works of God and thinking he must do it in obedience to inherit heaven he is placing faith in himself and is doomed. Yet you are doing the exact same thing in saying your not doomed becasue of Your interpretation of works, so you are adding another work.

again and again you prove you twisted my words and have utterly NO CLUE what I believe.

I was saved the moment I placed my trust in Christ in all he said.

1. I am a sinner
2. I am justly condemned and deserving of the spiritual death I recieved because of my sin.
3. I have fallen short of the only mark which I could get to heaven on my own (the law)
4. Christ loved me so much, he came and took the requirement of the law I deserved, (spiritual death) and suffered it in my place)
5. Through Gods love and grace, he has offered me, a sinner, redemtption, and justification through Christ my Lord.
6. I trust God fully, that he will forgive all my sin, past present and future, He will wash me and make me clean by his spirit. He will give me the spirit in my heart as a guarantee (eph 1) and he will keep his promise. even though I will continue, no matter how hard I try, to live up to his requirement, and will continue to fail and fall in sin.
7. Now that I am saved. i want to do what God wants me to do.

the first thing he wants me to do is be baptized in water. I did that
the second thing he wants me to do is learn about him. I must do this in church, in my home, and wherever I can learn his word. I have done and am doing this
the third thing he wants me to do is change my life. I am working on that. And will until the day I die. I will NEVER BE PERFECT


that is what separates us. You do these things hoping to earn salvation. I do than out of grattitude for the salvation GOD GAVE ME. You live in fear, I live in gratitude.

There is you doctrine exposed, because you tried to have your cake and eat it too with James and Paul.

And I just proved you wrong yet again about what I believe. You believe I teach a licentious gospel. you are dead wrong. If you want to continue to show this, and continue to show how you twist me words feel free. people like you are easy to expose.

IF wrong then PROVE IT, because I can each of your quotes that draw these conclusions, if you want I will post them all together so you can understand what you are teaching.

blah blah blah. You twist my words like you twist scripture. all your doing is exposing your true self. Are you sure you want to continue?

 

[feedm3]

blah blah blah. Luther got rid of james because he did not understand it. if he did, he would have kept it because it agreed with him. However I refuse to twist james and make him fit my belief. I am still waiting for you to even answer the questions about james, all you do is make ad hominem, you have not done anything but prove you want to argue. and it is getting gold. not just for me, but I am sure the whole forum!

Luther got rid of James because he did understand it, and knew it did not fit with "faith only". If it's so old why are you still here? I did not say you have to talk to me, Im sure I not going to convince you anymore, just as you know the same of me.

No, he is not saved according to God. Because, like the jew who rejected Christ. he thinks he is made right with God by his works. Thus he rejects the death of Christ as his only means of salvation. He is trusting self, and not God.

Heb 5:9.

What? is this how you do things? do you always twist peoples words. what you said here does not even make sense!

Did you say one must believe in God and have true faith?
Did you say one who does not do any works has dead faith?
Did you say that God knows who will perforem works or not before they do them, saving them or not saving them at the point of belief?
Did you say one who does good works but knows they are not going to save hiim is saved?
Did you say that if one believes he must obey God that he is doomed? -
conclusion Salvation based on areas:
1. belief
2. God's foreknowledge of your working life in the future:
3. You doing the works to prove you true faith
4. your knowledge that the works you are doing will not save you.

Hmmm nothing twisted here, only your words.

I can't judge your salvation. Only God can. I can say if your depending on your works of righteousness to save you, and teaching that gospel. You are believing in a false gospel of works. God will judge your faith.

You already have, you said I "was never saved". Making yourself the Judge in the matter.

No God does. you don't even get this? Man can not save us, and we can not save ourselves. if we could Christ would not have had to come.

So then it doesnt matter what we believe concerning works?

Why do you refuse to answer? How much work does james state these people have?

James 2:14
What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?

Are you afraid to answer? Your argument is with james, not me!

I did, you must obey God's commands, that is true faith, if you choose not to, your faith is dead, i.e. a faith that is not doing anything.
Dead faith does not save.
I understand James fine.

continuing to twist. What was the context of Hebrews? Jews who were trying to revert to ceremonial law. This is who it was written to. Are you trying to return to ceremonial law?

Who was it wriiten is what I have been asking for 3 posts now, didnt you say, "are you ready to diccuss Hebrews" I try and then you wont.
No I am not trying to return to the Law of MOses, so that means I should conclude that Hebrews has no information that is of value to me. right.

Now how was it written to Christians and Not the church - please explain.

Yes. This is what the people james spoke of were doing. What else were they doing that showed they had a mere belief, but no faith? why did James command them to prove (show) their faith by works? he could not say this if they had been doing ANY work at all now could he? or do you want to twist that to?

First, why do you keep saying that is what the people were doing, He did not say anyone did this.
He is giving an example.
That why he say "IF" a man say......
Not when that man said.
He is trying to teach you somethning, just read and listen.

Then I am under law and not under grace.

Again are you under the Law of Christ?

If we break even the least of all the commands we have been found guilty of the whole law. So tell me, How many white lies, or times have you lusted or wanted in your mind? And everytime you do this, you want me to believe God takes his gift back? What Kind of god is he. according to your senario. no man could be saved.

What do you think we are told "if we confess our sins he is just to forgive us"
Confessing them asking forgiveness for them.
Argument not vaild.

Again, your placing yourself under law. The very thing Paul condemned you are teaching, and you can't even see it.

I have not tried to convince you to anything in the Law of Moses.
I have tried to convince you to obey the Law of Christ in which we are now under.
That is what you are refusing.
Being baptized in the name of Jesus is found in the NT, not the OT.

You do understand there are two judgments do you not? This judgment is the BEMA judgment, It is where people are rewarded , or lose reward, based on their works. 1 Cor 12 paul tells us of these rewards. if our work endures, we will be rewarded gold silver precious stones, if it does not, our work will be burned. but what did Paul say? but he himself will be condemned to hell, because he did not work hard enough? Well if we listen to you we would think so. But no. Paul says this person that lost his reward in the fire WILL BE SAVED, EVEN THOUGH AS THOUGH THROUGH FIRE.

There will NOT be 2 judgments, are you now writing your own Bible?
The whole above statement is just sad.

This is not the judgment on the unbeliever. he will get no reward but one, eternal condemnation. because they did not get baptized? did not go to church? did not take communion? No, because they did not believe (have faith) in Christ.

Now you are making yourself the judge again. Ok.

You have no clue what baptism of the hs is. You don;t even understand what the greek word baptizo means, you assume it automatically means water, even though no greek speaking person would have even thought of water just because they saw the word.

Right man - Baptism "to dip" to "plundge" or "immerse" We could say correctly I have baptized this apple in carmel. Does that mean that the context of the Bible does not tell us what is being used to immerse?
"People would have not thought of water, when baptize was spoken in the nT?
You are crazy - baptism was nothing new in the meaning to the word, they had different baptisms under the old law.
Jn 3:23 - why was John baptizing in Aneon?
"because there was much water there"
The Eunach - "here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized?"
You are trying to set yourself up for a spirit baptism every time we read of baptism unless it says water was there.
I know I remember your failed attempt in I Pet 3:21.
That just made me laugh.


AMEN! Yes they were. As well as being commanded to do MANY MANY MANY other things.

But the baptism in water, or the other things did not save them. The baptism of the spirit DID! (titus 3: 5. we are washed BY THE SPIRIT. not physical water!

Nope by the Spirit command to be baptized, we are washed by the Spiriit in water.

You are wrong

1. it was mentioned and prophesied by John the baptist (he will baptize with the HS0
2. It was fortold by Jesus (you will be baptised by the HS and this included ALL PEOPLE)
3. Yes, the promise of the spirit is not the baptism. It is on account of the baptism that we recieve him. One who is not made clean BY GOD can not recieve the HS.

I did not say the Baptism of the HOly Spirit was only "mentioned" two times, but that it is only to happen 2 time:
The Apostles in Acts 2:
Cornelius in Acts 10:

WRONG. nice way to twist Gods word. So you would trust a baptism in water by a mere sinner who also needs christ over a baptism performed By God himself into the death and burial of Christ (rom 6) and Gods church (1 cor 12) were our sins are washed and we are made pure (titus 3: 5)

Nope, because once we are "IN" Christ, God hears our prayers, and we can simply ask for forgiveness.
Baptism is only commanded to be done one time, to bury us with Christ.

and you say it is not a work of men?

It's not, what man created the commad?

forgive me if I place my faith in the work of GOD, and NOT MEN!

Then start obeying God if you put your faith in HIm.

If we came up with our own ways to be saved, and good works, then we would be putting faith in ourselves.
If we obey what God has commanded, we are putting faith in HIm.


still you can say you believe what you want but, that is not what you are teaching.

But you are right about one thing, I do fear God:
Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro_1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro_9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro_15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

 

[feedm3]

Here you Go:
You can try to refute this if you want:



THE LAYING ON OF HANDS:​

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:6 And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.
Act 8:7 For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed.
Things to Note:
• Philip was NOT an apostle; only a deacon – see Acts 6:5
• Philip was able to perform miracles – Acts 8:6,7


Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.
Things to Note:
• The people; including Simon the Sorcerer believed Philip and was baptized.
• Upon this baptism there is no mention of the Holy Spirit,


Act 8:14 Now when THE APOSTLES which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Act 8:15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
Act 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
Act 8:17 Then LAID THEY THEIR HANDS ON THEM, AND THEY RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST.
Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on OF THE APOSTLES' HANDS THE HOLY GHOST WAS GIVEN, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Things to Note:
• vs 14 – Peter and John were both Apostles, sent for a purpose.
• Vs 15 – 16 – The people of Samara were already baptized but did not receive the Holy Spirit.
◦ They were only baptized in the name of Christ.
• Vs 17 – The Holy Spirit was given ONLY by the laying on of THE APOSTELS hands.
◦ Philip was able to perform miracles yet he could not lay his hands on the people to give the Holy Spirit, He needed the Apostles for that purpose.
• Vs 18 – Even Simon recognized this.

Questions based upon these passages:
[FONT=&quot]1. [/FONT]Are there any Apostles alive today to pass on the Holy Spirit? Answer: No
[FONT=&quot]2. [/FONT]What happen when the last Apostle died? - Answer: Miracles began to cease – I Cor 13.

THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY SPIRIT​

Mar_1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Act 1:2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had GIVEN COMMANDMENTS UNTO THE APOSTLES WHOM HE HAD CHOSEN:
Act 1:3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:
Act 1:4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Things to Note:
• The Baptism of the Holy Spirit was commanded to THE APOSTLES – Acts 1:2, 4.
• Jesus chose the Apostles himself.

Act 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
Act 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Act 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
Things to Note:
• “They” in text is still only referring to the Apostles – continued from Acts 1:2.
▪ Some may attempt to argue that it fell on the 120 disciples, but this is proven wrong simply by tracing back the pronoun “they”, it leads right to the Apostles.
• The Apostles received the Holy Spirit WITHOUT the laying on of hands.
◦ Because Jesus had personally chosen them and promised the baptism of the Spirit on them.
• This baptism of the Holy Spirit only occurs two times in the Bible.
◦ Here in Acts 2 on the Apostles (the Jews) and in Acts 10; Cornelius (the Gentiles).


Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
Things to Note:
• Cornelius was a devout man.
• His prayers came up as “a memorial” before God.
◦ The Greek word for “memorial” is [FONT=&quot]μνημόσυνον[/FONT]
▪ [FONT=&quot]This word means “a reminder”[/FONT]
▪ Cornelius' prayer reminded God that he would bring salvation to the Gentiles as well.
• See – Jn 10:16; 11:52, Gen 49:10.
• This does not mean Cornelius was saved at this point.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, WHICH HAVE RECEIVED THE HOLY GHOST AS WELL AS WE?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Things to Note:
The Holy Spirit fell upon the gentiles just as it did the Apostles – WITHOUT THE LAYING ON OF HANDS
This astonished the Jews – 45.
It showed Peter and the rest of the Jews that God has chosen the Gentiles worthy of salvation.
It was not a decision made by the Apostles, but the pouring out of the Spirit showed it was from God Himself.
Yet Cornelius and the rest still had to obey like us all – Mrk 16:16.
They were COMMANDED to be baptized – Vs 48.

Act 11:12 And the Spirit bade me go with them, nothing doubting. Moreover these six brethren accompanied me, and we entered into the man's house:
Act 11:13 And he shewed us how he had seen an angel in his house, which stood and said unto him, Send men to Joppa, and call for Simon, whose surname is Peter;
Act 11:14 Who shall tell thee words, whereby thou and all thy house shall be saved.
Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, AS ON US AT THE BEGINNING.
Act 11:16 Then REMEMBERED I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
Act 11:17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
Things to Note:
• 14 – Peter was going to tell Cornelius how to be saved.
• 15 - “As on us at the beginning” shows the uniqueness of the Spirit falling upon them.
◦ It showed it was a decision made by God to save the Gentiles.
• 16 – The purpose was to show Peter and the Jews God deemed the Gentiles worthy of salvation.

Eph 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
Eph 4:5 One Lord, one faith,

There is only one baptism today.
Is it the baptism of the Holy Sprit or baptism in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ​​?

Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Only the Apostles could give the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Those teaching today that the Holy Spirit falls directly upon individuals are teaching error.
Just as Philip could not give the Spirit without the laying on of hands by the Apostles neither can we.

The baptism of the Holy Spirit was a sign that God had chosen the Apostles, and later the Gentiles.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Luther got rid of James because he did understand it, and knew it did not fit with "faith only". If it's so old why are you still here? I did not say you have to talk to me, Im sure I not going to convince you anymore, just as you know the same of me.



Heb 5:9.



Did you say one must believe in God and have true faith?
Did you say one who does not do any works has dead faith?
Did you say that God knows who will perforem works or not before they do them, saving them or not saving them at the point of belief?
Did you say one who does good works but knows they are not going to save hiim is saved?
Did you say that if one believes he must obey God that he is doomed? -
conclusion Salvation based on areas:
1. belief
2. God's foreknowledge of your working life in the future:
3. You doing the works to prove you true faith
4. your knowledge that the works you are doing will not save you.

Hmmm nothing twisted here, only your words.





You already have, you said I "was never saved". Making yourself the Judge in the matter.

So then it doesnt matter what we believe concerning works?



I did, you must obey God's commands, that is true faith, if you choose not to, your faith is dead, i.e. a faith that is not doing anything.
Dead faith does not save.
I understand James fine.



Who was it wriiten is what I have been asking for 3 posts now, didnt you say, "are you ready to diccuss Hebrews" I try and then you wont.
No I am not trying to return to the Law of MOses, so that means I should conclude that Hebrews has no information that is of value to me. right.

Now how was it written to Christians and Not the church - please explain.

First, why do you keep saying that is what the people were doing, He did not say anyone did this.
He is giving an example.
That why he say "IF" a man say......
Not when that man said.
He is trying to teach you somethning, just read and listen.


Again are you under the Law of Christ?




What do you think we are told "if we confess our sins he is just to forgive us"
Confessing them asking forgiveness for them.
Argument not vaild.



I have not tried to convince you to anything in the Law of Moses.
I have tried to convince you to obey the Law of Christ in which we are now under.
That is what you are refusing.
Being baptized in the name of Jesus is found in the NT, not the OT.



There will NOT be 2 judgments, are you now writing your own Bible?
The whole above statement is just sad.



Now you are making yourself the judge again. Ok.


Right man - Baptism "to dip" to "plundge" or "immerse" We could say correctly I have baptized this apple in carmel. Does that mean that the context of the Bible does not tell us what is being used to immerse?
"People would have not thought of water, when baptize was spoken in the nT?
You are crazy - baptism was nothing new in the meaning to the word, they had different baptisms under the old law.
Jn 3:23 - why was John baptizing in Aneon?
"because there was much water there"
The Eunach - "here is water, what doth hinder me from being baptized?"
You are trying to set yourself up for a spirit baptism every time we read of baptism unless it says water was there.
I know I remember your failed attempt in I Pet 3:21.
That just made me laugh.


AMEN! Yes they were. As well as being commanded to do MANY MANY MANY other things.

Nope by the Spirit command to be baptized, we are washed by the Spiriit in water.



I did not say the Baptism of the HOly Spirit was only "mentioned" two times, but that it is only to happen 2 time:
The Apostles in Acts 2:
Cornelius in Acts 10:

Nope, because once we are "IN" Christ, God hears our prayers, and we can simply ask for forgiveness.
Baptism is only commanded to be done one time, to bury us with Christ.

It's not, what man created the commad?

Then start obeying God if you put your faith in HIm.

If we came up with our own ways to be saved, and good works, then we would be putting faith in ourselves.
If we obey what God has commanded, we are putting faith in HIm.


still you can say you believe what you want but, that is not what you are teaching.

But you are right about one thing, I do fear God:
Psa_111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do his commandments: his praise endureth for ever.
Pro_1:7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Pro_9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding.
Pro_15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom; and before honour is humility.

It is obvious you do not want to discuss anything. You completely ignored two posts I made, of course this is reasonable since they prove you wrong.

I guess we can try again. But you ignore everything which apposes you and backs you into a corner. And then twist everything else everyone says.

If you want to work for your salvation, feel free. I am not stopping you. You are free to believe what you wish. Only God can judge you, I can't.

Good luck in your endeavors to earn grace, Earn salvation, and stand in front of God on judgment day and praise all the great works you accomplished in his name.

of course, I know what he will say about all your works, and about you. You will have to find out that for yourself. I am sick of playing childish games.

 

[feedm3]

It is obvious you do not want to discuss anything. You completely ignored two posts I made, of course this is reasonable since they prove you wrong.

I guess we can try again. But you ignore everything which apposes you and backs you into a corner. And then twist everything else everyone says.

If you want to work for your salvation, feel free. I am not stopping you. You are free to believe what you wish. Only God can judge you, I can't.

Good luck in your endeavors to earn grace, Earn salvation, and stand in front of God on judgment day and praise all the great works you accomplished in his name.

of course, I know what he will say about all your works, and about you. You will have to find out that for yourself. I am sick of playing childish games.

Okay man I have not ignored anything, you have.
If you sick of playing Childish games why write this childish message?
I really do wish you the best in your studies, I hope you do gain eternal salvation.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Okay man I have not ignored anything, you have.

Dude if you go back you will see there are two posts you have not responded to. You will also notice there are many questions you have refused to answer. I guess you like playing games huh?

I really do wish you the best in your studies, I hope you do gain eternal salvation.

Thanks. But I already have it.

My hope is in God not myself.

If my hope was in myself I would be worried. because I could never live up. If I never sinned the rest of my life. I would still fall far short of the requirement to save myself. Scripture states there is only one man without sin. and that man is Christ. It also says he took the requirement and punishment due me, and nailed it to the cross.

Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I don't know why you still think you have to work off these requirements and earn what Christ paid for with his flesh and blood!

As for me, I eagerly await the adoption. for I was SAVED IN THAT HOPE. not by things which can be seen (good works) but by things which can not be seen (faith in Christ). And I eagerly wait with patience.

Rom 8: 23 - 25 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

I also was sealed with the HS of promise, who is the guarantee of my eternal destiny, It happened the moment i placed my faith (not just mere belief) in Christ.

2 cor 1:22 He (God) Who has sealed us and has GIVEN us the SPIRIT in our hearts as a gaurantee.

Eph 1: 13 - 14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

God gets all the credit for my salvation. All I did was obey the gospel!

Rom 10 : 9 - 13 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.?”

I made that call. I pray one day you will! then you can KNOW you are saved, and not have to fear you will not be good enough.

I leave you with these!

The way to salvation:
1. Hear the Gospel : Jn 5: 24 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life.
Rom 10: 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

No mention of baptism, communion, church membership or obeying a bunch of laws.


2. Believe: Jn 1:12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, to those who believe in His name.

You wanna be a child of God. Believe in him and him alone!

Jn 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

The gospel in a nutshell

 

[feedm3]

Dude if you go back you will see there are two posts you have not responded to. You will also notice there are many questions you have refused to answer. I guess you like playing games huh?

I said when you clear up your contradiction concerning Hebrew I would answer the rest.
NO I dont like playing games that is why I just tried to leave this study on a friendly note.
Now you rejecting that as well.

Thanks. But I already have it.

Wow. very humble way to take a friendly comment.

Colossians 2:14
having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Yea dude straw man, no one trying make you sacrifice animals.

I made that call. I pray one day you will! then you can KNOW you are saved, and not have to fear you will not be good enough.

I have an attitude towards the works I do, and it is not of praise because the Lord has shown how we should be:
Luk 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Anyway Im starting to feel this conversation is violating the command to speak the truth in love" = I mean that coming from the insults of both sides not just you.

Take care.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Wow. very humble way to take a friendly comment.

Well if that is all i said you would be correct in scolding me. But as usual. people leave the context out. and make it seem like something it is not.

so lets repost what I said. and highlit the parts you left out!

"Thanks. But I already have it.

My hope is in God not myself.

If my hope was in myself I would be worried. because I could never live up. If I never sinned the rest of my life. I would still fall far short of the requirement to save myself. ."


I do not know how one could be more humble than this. it is not about me and my works. it is about Christ and HIS WORK!

 

[feedm3]

Well if that is all i said you would be correct in scolding me. But as usual. people leave the context out. and make it seem like something it is not.

so lets repost what I said. and highlit the parts you left out!

[/b][/color]"Thanks. But I already have it.

My hope is in God not myself.

If my hope was in myself I would be worried. because I could never live up. If I never sinned the rest of my life. I would still fall far short of the requirement to save myself. ."


I do not know how one could be more humble than this. it is not about me and my works. it is about Christ and HIS WORK!

lol man ok bye ....take care....see ya.....wow!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

lol man ok bye ....take care....see ya.....wow!

Yeah. Wow!! I will pray for ya!

 

[feedm3]

Yeah. Wow!! I will pray for ya!

Ok thank you, and this doesn't count as part of the discussion since clearly you seem to think getting the last word will make you the winner.
You got the last word you won the "childish game" your sick of playing.

please quit stalking my Email, unless you would like to continue our study, in which I have no problem, otherwise Take Care.

 

[feedm3]

Sorry for so many posts here, It is now safe to return back to the original topic "who are the elect" lol.

 

[Forest]

lets just look at one of those passages. Gal.

context. Galation church had turned to a different Gospel. which was not from God (gal 1)

I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

then we come to ch 3. And again, I find it funny you pic one verse out of a passage and refuse to look at context. But that is typical of people who want to twist scripture to support their own faulty belief.

1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?
5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c] 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

why you can't see this is beyond me.

1. did they receive spirit by works of law or faith and baptism and obeying Gods commands? Oh wait it says just faith!
2. again we come to abraham, He had faith, no works involved. no patriarchal law. no law whatsoever, and no works whatsoever.
3. God taught abraham the gospel in which gentiles would be saved? What gospel? where is baptism and the law given to abraham?
4. obey:

Πειθώ, -οῦς, ἡ,
1. Peitho, prop. name of a goddess, lit. Persuasion; Lat. Suada or Suadela.
2. persuasive power, persuasion: 1 Co. 2:4 ἐν πειθοῖ—acc. to certain inferior authorities. [On the word, see Müller’s note on Joseph. c. Ap. 2, 21, 3. (Hes., Hdt., al.)]*
πείθω [(fr. r. meaning ‘to bind’; allied w. πίστις, fides, foedus, etc.; Curtius § 327; Vaniček p. 592)]; impf. ἔπειθον; fut. πείσω; 1 aor. ἔπεισα; 2 pf. πέποιθα; plupf. ἐπεποίθειν (Lk. 11:22); Pass. [or Mid., pres. πείθομαι; impf. ἐπειθόμην]; pf. πέπεισμαι; 1 aor. ἐπείσθην; 1 fut. πεισθήσομαι (Lk. 16:31); fr. Hom. down;
1. Active;
a. to persuade, i. e. to induce one by words to believe: absol. πείσας μετέστησεν ἱκανὸν ὄχλον, Acts 19:26; τί, to cause belief in a thing (which one sets forth), Acts 19:8 R G T [cf. B. 150 (131) n.] (Soph. O. C. 1442); περί w. gen. of the thing, ibid. L Tr WH; τινά, one, Acts 18:4; τινά τι, one of a thing, Acts 28:23 Rec. (Hdt. 1, 163; Plat. apol. p. 37 a., and elsewhere; [cf. B. u. s.]); τινὰ περί τινος, concerning a thing, ibid. G L T Tr WH.
b. as in class. Grk. fr. Hom. down, w. an acc. of a pers., to make friends of, win one’s favor, gain one’s good-will, Acts 12:20; or to seek to win one, strive to please one, 2 Co. 5:11; Gal. 1:10; to conciliate by persuasion, Mt. 28:14 [here T WH om. Tr br. αὐτόν]; Acts 14:19; i. q. to tranquillize [A. V. assure], τὰς καρδίας ἡμῶν, 1 Jn. 3:19.
c. to persuade unto i. e. move or induce one by persuasion to do something: τινά foll. by an inf. [B. § 139, 46], Acts 13:43; 26:28, (Xen. an. 1, 3, 19; Polyb. 4, 64, 2; Diod. 11, 15; 12, 39; Joseph. antt. 8, 10, 3); τινά foll. by ἵνα [cf. W. 338 (317); B. § 139, 46], Mt. 27:20 [Plut. apoph. Alex. 21].
2. Passive and Middle [cf. W. 253 (238)];
a. to be persuaded, to suffer one’s self to be persuaded; to be induced to believe: absol., Lk. 16:31; Acts 17:4; to have faith, Heb. 11:13 Rec; τινί, in a thing, Acts 28:24; to believe, sc. ὅτι, Heb. 13:18 L T Tr WH. πέπεισμαί τι [on the neut. acc. cf. B. § 131, 10] περί τινος (gen. of pers.), to be persuaded (of) a thing concerning a person, Heb. 6:9 [A. V. we are persuaded better things of you, etc.]; πεπεισμένος εἰμί, to have persuaded one’s self, and πείθομαι, to believe, [cf. Eng. to be persuaded], foll. by acc. w. inf., Lk. 20:6; Acts 26:26; πέπει

σμαι ὅτι, Ro. 8:38; 2 Tim. 1:5, 12; with ἐν κυρίῳ added (see ἐν, I. 6 b.), Ro. 14:14; περί τινος ὅτι, Ro. 15:14.
b. to listen to, obey, yield to, comply with: τινί, one, Acts 5:36 sq. 39 (40); 23:21; 27:11; Ro. 2:8; Gal. 3:1 Rec; 5:7; Heb. 13:17; Jas. 3:3.
3. 2 pf. πέποιθα (Sept. mostly for בָּטַח, also for חָסָה, נִשְׁעַן Niphal of the unused שָׁעַ&#1503, intrans. to trust, have confidence, be confident: foll. by acc. w


Thayer, J. H. (1889). A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament: Being Grimm's Wilke's Clavis Novi Testamenti (497). New York: Harper & Brothers.

So to obey is to be persuaded of a truth. Paul is talking about the gospel. what is the gospel> Believe in th ename of Christ, and you will be saved. That all who believe will be saved. Call out on the name of the lord and you will be saved. For by grace we are saved through faith. and not of yourself, it is the GIFT of God.

So to obey is to be persuaded of the truth. If we add works. we have no obeyed the gospel.

Keep twisting things, all your doing is trying to convince yourself.

I will answer more later when i have time

The natural man will not seek to serve a spiritual God, 1 Cor 2:14.