Who is right—Paul, David, or are they both right?

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Rondonmon

Senior Member
May 13, 2016
1,195
156
63
#41
David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?
Yes, it's EASY.......Compare us with the Angels in Heaven who are perfect. Do they need a law? NO........did Satan get condemned by a Law? NO, he was condemned by the Spirit. There were no laws. Likewise, we are condemned by the Spirit, the Law was not given unto Israel until 430 years after THE PROMISE, which tells us it's not needed. No human can keep the law, we fell from Grace so all the law can do is condemn us, the Law would justify the Angels who are perfect.

It's the Spirit, not the Law that justifies us. God's own son was THE PROMISE. The Law can never justify us, it can only condemn us, it takes a blood sacrifice to justify us. It takes innocent bloodshed, the law avails nothing.
 

Tararose

Well-known member
Sep 30, 2020
672
520
93
Uk
www.101christiansocialnetwork.com
#43
When we see anything that LOOKS contradictory, the solution is usually laid out for us, ie.God changed things for whatever reason. We have an occasion in scripture that makes it clear the Lord holds a whole family, even nation accountable for the sin of a man or woman, then in another place it is clearly written NO LONGER will He do this, showing a definitive point when God decided to change the rules.

In a similar way, the law was given to a set people at a set time, and David was right to observe and honour it, because it was THE word of God to Him in that day. It was the perfect law of liberty for anyone who fully observed it, though no one really could.

Just as Adam and Eve should have obeyed the word of God given to them in the garden.

We in like manner must observe the Word of God given to us.... Jesus.

The other examples from times past are all for our learning, and help us to check if what we believe to be God's teaching and leading and so on, is consistent with the very character and nature of God, revealed to us through word of God that we have available now in printed form.

So in short, Both are right, because Both are the self same WORD OF GOD, just given in different ways, providing different levels of revelation and enlightenment to different generations, according to God's timing and eternal purposes. To everything there is a time and a season.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#44
Yes, it's EASY.......Compare us with the Angels in Heaven who are perfect. Do they need a law? NO........did Satan get condemned by a Law? NO, he was condemned by the Spirit. There were no laws. Likewise, we are condemned by the Spirit, the Law was not given unto Israel until 430 years after THE PROMISE, which tells us it's not needed. No human can keep the law, we fell from Grace so all the law can do is condemn us, the Law would justify the Angels who are perfect.

It's the Spirit, not the Law that justifies us. God's own son was THE PROMISE. The Law can never justify us, it can only condemn us, it takes a blood sacrifice to justify us. It takes innocent bloodshed, the law avails nothing.
It is impossible to obey the spirit of the law and not obey the literal law.

Jesus explained the spirit of the law not to murder by telling us not to call someone "you fool". If you physically murder someone, you are not obeying the spirit of the law.
 

Reformed1689

Active member
Jun 1, 2018
151
56
28
#45
David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?
I'm thinking about going fishing here a few hours when the sun rises. What bait do you recommend for catching the most fish? You seem do to an excellent job here and hook quite a few yourself.

 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#46
I'm thinking about going fishing here a few hours when the sun rises. What bait do you recommend for catching the most fish? You seem do to an excellent job here and hook quite a few yourself.

I'm not fishing, that is for Jesus to do. I am trying the very best I know how to do to understand and know my creator.
 

Reformed1689

Active member
Jun 1, 2018
151
56
28
#47
I'm not fishing, that is for Jesus to do. I am trying the very best I know how to do to understand and know my creator.
Which bait should I use? You're pretty good at baiting people and I'd sincerely like your opinion.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,608
11,535
113
#48
It is impossible to obey the spirit of the law and not obey the literal law.
what about pulling your neighbors ox out of a pit on sabbath?
or David and his men eating shewbread from the tabernacle at Nob?

:unsure:


Did Jesus give the law? No; Moses did!
which person of the Trinity spoke with Moses 'as face to face' giving him the commandments to give to the people?
my position is that Jesus is the glory that filled the tabernacle, that dwells above the cherubim and inside the pillar of cloud and fire.
the invisible God made visible ;)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,896
1,594
113
London
#49
David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?
119 refers not only to the law but to ordinances and statutes. You can't have the law without the ordinances ... that is judges, the priesthood etc.

It is quite amazing how the argument over whether or not we should obey the laws quickly turns to judging, you cannot live under the law without judges.

Judge is not a church ministry.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
20,969
11,473
113
#50
which person of the Trinity spoke with Moses 'as face to face' giving him the commandments to give to the people?
my position is that Jesus is the glory that filled the tabernacle, that dwells above the cherubim and inside the pillar of cloud and fire.
the invisible God made visible ;)
Yes, of course. Jesus, when in the flesh, did not give the Law.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,608
11,535
113
#51
Yes, of course. Jesus, when in the flesh, did not give the Law.
He did something amazing; like abrogation, but not quite like abrogation:

A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another;
as I have loved you, that you also love one another.

(John 13:34)

In that He says, “A new” He has made the first obsolete.
(Hebrews 8:13)
i think it's important here that being "obsolete" is not the same as being "abolished" -- it's not by the law being 'deleted' that we have become free from it, but through our death, in Him ((Romans 6-7)), it has no more authority over us.
righteousness itself doesn't change -- and the law teaches us what righteousness looks like. but a mediator greater than Moses came, with authority and power to make a new covenant with whom He will -- in the same way that God gave Adam only every seed-bearing plant for food, but gave Noah all creatures as well. He is able to establish us in righteousness and add righteousness to us, in a way the law never could and never can: the law proves and magnifies our unrighteousness; it is not for the righteous but for sinners.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
7,769
6,051
113
#52
David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?
The penalty part of the Law was abolished for all who trust in the Blood of Jesus. The part of the Law that explains what sin is still profits us, as does David's examples of prayer and praise to the Lord.

Galatians
3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#53
119 refers not only to the law but to ordinances and statutes. You can't have the law without the ordinances ... that is judges, the priesthood etc.

It is quite amazing how the argument over whether or not we should obey the laws quickly turns to judging, you cannot live under the law without judges.

Judge is not a church ministry.
If we listen to the Lord, all these questions are answered. We are told we are not to be the judges for the Lord is our judge. And the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law is also fully explained by our Lord. We are even given the Holy Spirit that is within us when we accept Christ within to help us with our understanding.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#54
The penalty part of the Law was abolished for all who trust in the Blood of Jesus. The part of the Law that explains what sin is still profits us, as does David's examples of prayer and praise to the Lord.

Galatians
3:21 [Is] the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster [to bring us] unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
We used the law to tell us we need Christ.

With Christ there is no penalty of the law, we are made as if we are righteous.

This righteous person we now are, not of our doings but through Christ, now lives as a righteous person. We are given the law in our hearts, but it is up to us to put the law into our minds for the Holy Spirit to use for us.

As a forgiven person, righteous through Christ, we are still in the flesh, we still need the Holy Spirit telling us of the law, we still need Christ.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#55
Which bait should I use? You're pretty good at baiting people and I'd sincerely like your opinion.
If you are serious, then if even me can give advise, my advise is to put as much of the word into your mind and heart so you can be as true to His word as you can manage.

I shudder to think of the times I was asked by someone about the Lord and now know I was so very inadequate because I hadn't put enough of the word in my mind.
 
Apr 15, 2017
2,868
653
113
#56
David gave us the 119th psalm, it is 176 verses in praise of the law, yet Paul tells us the law is abolished. God would not abolish anything that He gave us that benefits us as David explains the benefits of the law for us, yet scripture plainly states God abolished law.

Can anyone explain this?
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not void out the law but we live up to it which are the moral laws, laws of love.

Which the 10 commandments are moral laws, laws of love not offending God or people.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual not physical which is the moral laws and laws of love.

Which charity, love in action, is greater than faith and hope, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus took the physical ordinances, and physical laws, out of the way because they are contrary to us for they had no bearing on spiritual salvation, but did not take away the moral laws, and laws of love.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,438
3,542
113
#57
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not void out the law but we live up to it which are the moral laws, laws of love.

Which the 10 commandments are moral laws, laws of love not offending God or people.
But we don't live up to the law as it was intended. That's why unbelievers need a Savior and Christians need continual grace.

Hebrews 4:15-16 ESV
[15] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
2,896
1,594
113
London
#58
If we listen to the Lord, all these questions are answered. We are told we are not to be the judges for the Lord is our judge. And the spirit of the law as opposed to the letter of the law is also fully explained by our Lord. We are even given the Holy Spirit that is within us when we accept Christ within to help us with our understanding.
quite so
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,069
2,277
113
#59
Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

We do not void out the law but we live up to it which are the moral laws, laws of love.

Which the 10 commandments are moral laws, laws of love not offending God or people.

Rom 7:12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

The law is spiritual not physical which is the moral laws and laws of love.

Which charity, love in action, is greater than faith and hope, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
Col 2:15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus took the physical ordinances, and physical laws, out of the way because they are contrary to us for they had no bearing on spiritual salvation, but did not take away the moral laws, and laws of love.
Such a wonderful explanation. Although I would like to add that although the ten commandments are not the spirit of the law, they were given by the Lord and therefore are good. It is just we must understand the spirit of the law that is explained In Mark 12:29 is the true law.

Mark 12:29 The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
#60
But we don't live up to the law as it was intended. That's why unbelievers need a Savior and Christians need continual grace.

Hebrews 4:15-16 ESV
[15] For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. [16] Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.
I don’t understand why people can’t understand the requirement of the law was perfection. Confirm and obey every word, every jot and tittle.
and that the ten commands written on stone are called the ministers of death, because cursed is the one who does not obey every word or as James said, if we keep the whole law and stumble in one point, we are guilty.

people want to look at a law which was Given to condemn them and act as if it is how we must live.

well it is how we will live when sin is taken away, but until then, trying to put the burden on people they can not keep is hurting them and the ones putting that burden on the,

paul and moses were lock step. The problem is these people can not grasp what moses said as paul said declair ing to be teachers of the law, they do not even know it