Who is smarter, man or God?

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,796
515
113
#1
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
 

JaumeJ

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2011
16,147
3,080
113
#2
Many overlook the reality of how the first believers of Jesus, Yeshua, had only the Tanakh to read and learn from. The Holy Spirit gives us understanding, not scholars of the flesh. These folks are desstroying themselves with what is falsely called knowledge. Bod bless you...j
 

morefaithrequired

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2019
1,577
867
113
#3
I think if you read scripture wih a discerning open mind there is no harm. And in many cases the reader will become grace filled. Full of the Spirit. But i feel it is not a guarantee. To be honest there are some books i dont like and avoid. Leviticus is one.
 
Sep 15, 2019
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#4
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
The Old Testament also indicates about clean and unclean foods. We find that some unclean foods, such as pork, are linked to a number of health issues.

Circumcision was required for all males at 8 days old. Studies have shown that circumcision eliminates the breeding ground for bacteria that can cause health issues for the man, as well as his future wife. And it turns out that at 8 days, the child has the highest amount of vitamin K in his blood, to assist with blood clotting after his circumcision.

Not to mention the rules about bathing, quarantine to stop spread of disease, mould and a number of other things.

While I certainly agree that eating clean foods, having your males circumcised at 8 days old, preventing mould, etc. is not necessary for salvation, I believe there is great wisdom in all of God's word.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,983
6,534
113
#5
who does the woman in Judges 19 represent?
and the Levite? and who is the old man that boards them?


i don't think the primary purpose of the OT is to reduce the probability of a population of bacteria.
i think it's about the person & work of God, manifest in the flesh as Jesus the Christ.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,405
15,219
113
#6
There are some men that like to think they are.....................
 
Sep 15, 2019
70
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#7
who does the woman in Judges 19 represent?
and the Levite? and who is the old man that boards them?


i don't think the primary purpose of the OT is to reduce the probability of a population of bacteria.
Most certainly not. The ritual laws were just that - rituals having a spiritual meaning. However, I also believe there were physical benefits to the rituals prescribed.

i think it's about the person & work of God, manifest in the flesh as Jesus the Christ.
Amen.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,983
6,534
113
#8
Most certainly not. The ritual laws were just that - rituals having a spiritual meaning. However, I also believe there were physical benefits to the rituals prescribed.

Amen.
what's the spiritual meaning of circumcision?
which is more important - the flesh or the spirit? if you had one without the other, which can stand on its own?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,983
6,534
113
#9
for saying not to mix fibers for example
what's the spiritual meaning of this? how does it relate to the other sayings in the context it is found?

i'm not sure it has any value at all if we don't comprehend what it is representing, do you agree?

is it a shadow? a shadow of what?
if we have the substance, are we at fault if we don't have the shadow?
if we have the shadow, are we at fault if we don't have the substance?
 
Sep 15, 2019
70
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#10
what's the spiritual meaning of circumcision?
Being made right with God, a new creation. As Deuteronomy eloquently puts it, to be humble and sensitive (i.e. accepting) to God's will, to not be hard-headed or stiff-necked.

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

which is more important - the flesh or the spirit? if you had one without the other, which can stand on its own?
Always the spiritual.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,983
6,534
113
#11
Being made right with God, a new creation.
by cutting away something man is created with? why?
why is man born with physical things that should be cut away?
what is '
the foreskin of the heart' and why is man born with it?
why must it be removed?
why isn't there a similar physical practice for women? do they have a similar spiritual counterpart?


in type, what does this have to do with Christ? where is the NT compliment?
what is '
the 8th day' representative of, spiritually, and what's its importance?
is there a spiritual counterpart to vitamin K?

is it different for women, physically and/or spiritually?
 

Lightskin

Well-known member
Aug 16, 2019
1,516
1,782
113
#12
To answer the OP question, I’m going out on a limb and saying God. Just a hunch.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
42,405
15,219
113
#13
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
I actually love the O.T........and have spent quite a bit of time in it.....guess what.....it ALL points to Christ <---HE said....In the volume of the BOOK it is written of ME....SEARCH the scriptures, for they are they that testify of ME.........

From Genesis 1:1 to the last verse of Malachi and the entire N.T. <----IT all points to Jesus THE Christ!
 
Sep 15, 2019
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#14
by cutting away something man is created with?
It's more like a pruning, than a cutting away, is my reasoning. In the New Testament, God is the gardener, and he prunes us to make us grow well. I always thought the excess skin removed in circumcision could be representative of the pride of man and/or sin nature - man trusting in himself.
Number of reasons, but primary one is covenant. The seed of the man passes through the part circumcised.
why is man born with physical things that should be cut away?
Trimmed more than cut away. Only the excess skin is removed, not the whole male organ.
the foreskin of the heart' and why is man born with it?
Born into sin through Adam?
why must it be removed?
Made alive through Christ.
why isn't there a similar physical practice for women? do they have a similar spiritual counterpart?
Interesting question. Anatomically, females don't have corresponding excess skin which can be trimmed away without consequence. Analogically, I don't think females are as susceptible to the same pride issues as males. Physically, even if women could be "circumcised" without consequence, I think the sinful nature is inherited through the male, not the female. So it is the male that the symbol should be used on, not the female.


in type, what does this have to do with Christ? where is the NT compliment?
Circumcising our hearts.
what is 'the 8th day' representative of, spiritually, and what's its importance?
In 7 days, the Earth was created. The 8th day symbolises a New Creation, removing the old man and/or his sinful nature.
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
2,189
1,038
113
www.christiancourier.com
#15
by cutting away something man is created with? why?
why is man born with physical things that should be cut away?
what is '
the foreskin of the heart' and why is man born with it?
why must it be removed?
why isn't there a similar physical practice for women? do they have a similar spiritual counterpart?


in type, what does this have to do with Christ? where is the NT compliment?
what is '
the 8th day' representative of, spiritually, and what's its importance?
is there a spiritual counterpart to vitamin K?
is it different for women, physically and/or spiritually?
Just to step in really quickly here to answer, cutting away the foreskin in ancient Judaism was their way of separating their male heirs, when Judaism was passed through the matriarchal blood and ordered through the patriarchal Rabbi's and law keepers, from the animals.
This was a rite adjured through Abraham and his descendants and even slaves as a symbol or token of the covenant described in the Book of Genesis chapter 17.

Stepping back out again.
 
Sep 15, 2019
70
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#16
Just to step in really quickly here to answer, cutting away the foreskin in ancient Judaism was their way of separating their male heirs, when Judaism was passed through the matriarchal blood and ordered through the patriarchal Rabbi's and law keepers, from the animals.
This was a rite adjured through Abraham and his descendants and even slaves as a symbol or token of the covenant described in the Book of Genesis chapter 17.

Stepping back out again.
I think the question was why the foreskin, though, rather than something else, like an ear lobe or lingual frenulum (which wouldn't exclude females from participating). i.e. why were males created with foreskin just to have it snipped off?
 

Whispered

Well-known member
Aug 17, 2019
2,189
1,038
113
www.christiancourier.com
#17
I think the question was why the foreskin, though, rather than something else, like an ear lobe or lingual frenulum (which wouldn't exclude females from participating). i.e. why were males created with foreskin just to have it snipped off?
I would suggest that lingual frenulum is not relevant to a discussion concerning foreskin.

Foreskin keeps the glans of the male member protected. Without going into too much detail. Just as females sexual organs are protected by the Labia majora and minora. These in female Muslim children are also removed according to those who adhere to the strict custom of female circumcision in Islam. It is meant to keep the woman, when that girl child matures, shall we say, sexually conservative. There's an entire process that extends to that "surgery" that I won't go into due to the graphic nature of the description that far and away exceeds male circumcision.

There are some studies, with regard to the males surgery, that says circumcision blunts sexual pleasure. Of course that is highly contested by surgeons and others who support the practice.
Either way, it can be said, if God, in whatever religion this is practiced so as to say it is ordained by God, created the male with foreskin then an all knowing creator had a reason and knows that purpose far and above man's ideas of what is correct.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,103
336
83
#18
I have been poked fun at because I study scripture with people who are deeply involved with the OT and ancient Hebrew history. I am told I am too absorbed by the OT, it is mixing me up. One scholarly Christian told me it was foolishness. They have a label for it, they call it the roots movement. Anyone who speaks too much of OT is told they believe in going back to the sacrificial system scripture tells us we are not to use. The roots people, so intent on accepting the Lord on the Lord’s terms are accused of not accepting scripture. The roots people are scolded for their study, they are told we must stay in the NT even with our study. They are told the new covenant is accepted, we must not learn about the old covenant for it is not accepted.

One of the things these new covenant people take God to task for is some of the OT rituals God gave man. They say that it was not right for God to have used the sacrifice of animals as a symbol of the sacrifice of Christ. Also, the Lord is laughed at for saying not to mix fibers for example, the Lord is taken to task often for what is in the OT. The idea is that man has so much greater wisdom than God. But that has not always proven to be true.

Our food is restructured by man. As an example, man cuts our grains apart and takes out the part of them that are the most nutritious. How our animals used for food are fed makes their diet unnatural. So, our food does not nourish us properly. Over and over we have finally learned that God’s way is best. Learning the thoughts of the Lord always brings wisdom, in every way God is superior to man. It is not right for man to take God to task, ever.

I have found that every time man sets himself up as wiser than God it is either through misunderstanding God or that that person is wrong.

People can scoff all they want, I study the way of God, including the way of God before Christ. I find great wisdom there just as there is great wisdom in Christ.
The New Testament brings spiritual salvation, the Old Testament does not but is physical blessings on earth.

But we need the Old Testament to learn about God and His ways before the New Testament.

The Bible says the Old Testament was a school teacher and a tutor before the New Testament.

If we did not have the Old Testament would we believe the New Testament, and out of the mouth of 2 or 3 witnesses let everything be established.

And God said He proves He is the one true God by showing the end from the beginning, which He told us the whole history of mankind, so the Old Testament is important.

The Old Testament testifies of Jesus, and the New Testament, and shows us what shall happen in the future when God puts down the world, and Jesus rules on earth, and then the new heaven and new earth, and the former shall not be remembered, not come to mind.

That which is first is natural then that which is spiritual.

It was a physical covenant in the Old Testament and they could not have the Spirit to obey the moral laws perfectly, and to love perfectly, so God had them do physical ordinances that they could keep.

So while people think mixing fabrics is silly there was a purpose for it.

In the Old certain meats could not be eaten where in the New Testament it does not apply for it is spiritual now, and more power to overcome uncleaness both physical and spiritual.

The Old Testament is important to have for it testifies of the New, and Jesus quoted it to prove that He is the Messiah for it spoke of Him to come, and even the Pharisee Nicodemus said he believes Jesus is from God for no man could do those works unless God was with Him, and some Pharisees believed but they did not say anything because they did not want to be out out of the synagogue.

While we do not go by the Old Testament physical covenants but only by the moral laws that was in it we still need the Old Testament for it a witness to the New Testament.

If we did not have the Old Testament would we believe the New Testament if that was all that was given, for many people would say how can we believe that is true some person claiming to be the Messiah and He can provide eternal life.

But with the Old Testament there is witness, and prophesy telling of the New Testament, and the Savior to come Jesus, and He would do miracles, and provide eternal life, and the world rebelling against God, and God putting them down, and the saints being with Jesus forever.

Also the Old Testament tells us of wisdom, and the love of God, and our love for Him, to a great extent by Proverbs, and Psalms, and the whole duty of people is to fear God, and obey His commandments, and everything else is vain by the book Ecclesiastes.

And tells us of God's chosen people the Jews and not to mess with them for it will not be good for you which is a good thing to know.

The Old Testament tells us the beginning of creation, how Adam and Eve fell, and people became sinners, and need to follow God for salvation, and let's us know why we are in the condition that we need a Savior, so people in the New Testament will know why we need to be saved, and Jesus can provide it.

The Old Testament proves there is a God by prophesy, telling history, and the miracles more than the New Testament, but we have the Old Testament so we know that God is real in the New Testament, and Jesus did miracles by that God that did miracles in the Old Testament.

In the Old Testament we learn and believe God is real before we get to the New Testament which makes accepting the New Testament easier for many people.

I really do not know how to explain it that much but the Old Testament is profitable, and necessary.
 
Sep 15, 2019
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#19
I would suggest that lingual frenulum is not relevant to a discussion concerning foreskin.
I was just trying to think of body parts with little or no use. I could have suggested a toe nail or hair, but they're not made of skin, so probably not a fair comparison.

Foreskin keeps the glans of the male member protected.
We do wear clothes these days, making that function somewhat redundant.

Without going into too much detail. Just as females sexual organs are protected by the Labia majora and minora. These in female Muslim children are also removed according to those who adhere to the strict custom of female circumcision in Islam. It is meant to keep the woman, when that girl child matures, shall we say, sexually conservative. There's an entire process that extends to that "surgery" that I won't go into due to the graphic nature of the description that far and away exceeds male circumcision.
My understanding is that female "circumcision" or Female Genital Mutilation, is totally different from circumcision, and not really comparable. While circumcision just removes excess skin, FGM removes the most sensitive part of the female anatomy.

There are some studies, with regard to the males surgery, that says circumcision blunts sexual pleasure. Of course that is highly contested by surgeons and others who support the practice.
I think the argument that circumcision reduces sexual pleasure was debunked in 2015.

https://www.researchgate.net/public...Intact_Men_Using_Quantitative_Sensory_Testing

Either way, it can be said, if God, in whatever religion this is practiced so as to say it is ordained by God, created the male with foreskin then an all knowing creator had a reason and knows that purpose far and above man's ideas of what is correct.
I fully agree. But I believe that after sin entered the world, things deteriorated. So as people started wearing clothes, the purpose of the excess skin on males wasn't so important, but the consequences of disease was moreso. I don't think this was the primary reason God gave circumcision, but I believe there may be health benefits, and certainly that God would not command something that was harmful.
 

CharliRenee

Member
Staff member
Nov 4, 2014
4,787
5,459
113
#20
Is it too simple to believe that God created the foreskin and then commanding men in the OT to cut it off, merely to help drive home the truth of our natural sin state and our need to remove it through Christ? Also, is it too simple to think the womens menstrual cycle and child bearing pain preach the fall and need for Christ as well?

Everything about us points back to our King and Saviour, our hope...the Lord of Hosts.

The OT and NT points to Christ and so should we!!!