Who is the 12th apostle in Rev 21:14?

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FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
6,465
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#1
Rev 21:14 - The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

Since the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem will have the names of 12 apostles, who is the 12th name?

I have a solid evidence based answer but I'd like to see what others think about this.
 

Going_Nowhere

Well-known member
Nov 10, 2019
1,636
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#2
Matthias would be my guess. He was the one who replaced Judas, after all.
 

Truth7t7

Well-known member
May 19, 2020
7,708
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#3
Rev 21:14 - The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

Since the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem will have the names of 12 apostles, who is the 12th name?

I have a solid evidence based answer but I'd like to see what others think about this.
You have the answer, but were gonna play questions and answer with the teacher, Real Big Smiles!
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
1,399
113
#4
Rev 21:14 - The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

Since the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem will have the names of 12 apostles, who is the 12th name?

I have a solid evidence based answer but I'd like to see what others think about this.
Poor Matthias
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
29,124
5,873
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#5
I have a solid evidence based answer but I'd like to see what others think about this.
These kind of statements bother me a wee bit.......... but, I suppose some enjoy playing games, so enjoy
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
6,070
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#6
I never thought there was any question that Jesus, The Master, The King, chose the 12.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
6,465
848
113
#8
You have the answer, but were gonna play questions and answer with the teacher, Real Big Smiles!
You aren't required to participate. You may leave if you don't have an answer.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
6,465
848
113
#9
I never thought there was any question that Jesus, The Master, The King, chose the 12.
Yes, John 6:70 clearly states that Jesus chose the "12", and then He noted that one of them would betray Him. So Judas' name will NOT be on any of the foundation layers of the New Jerusalem.
 

FreeGrace2

Well-known member
Jan 31, 2021
6,465
848
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#11
OK, the answer is Paul. Here is the evidence for him.

Jesus gave the Great Commission to "the 11".

Matt 28-
16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Mark 16-
14 Afterward he appeared to the eleven themselves as they were reclining at table, and he rebuked them for their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they had not believed those who saw him after he had risen. 15 And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation.

Acts 1-
1 In the first book, O Theophilus, I have dealt with all that Jesus began to do and teach, 2 until the day when he was taken up, after he had given commands through the Holy Spirit to the apostles*** whom he had chosen. 3 He presented himself alive to them after his suffering by many proofs, appearing to them during forty days and speaking about the kingdom of God. 4 And while staying with them he ordered them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise of the Father, which, he said, "you heard from me; 5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”

2 passages mention 11 disciples, and Acts 1 says "to the apostles".

Mark 3:14 - And he appointed twelve (whom he also named apostles) so that they might be with him and he might send them out to preach

This proves that the 11 remaining disciples were also apostles. Only them while Jesus was on earth, before and after His resurrection.

Was Matthias present when Jesus commissioned the 11? No. There is no evidence of anyone other than the 11. So Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing.

So, who else was given a direct commission regarding the GC? Only Paul.

In Acts 9:15 Jesus in a vision told Ananias:
15 But the Lord said to Ananias, “Go! This man is my chosen instrument to proclaim my name to the Gentiles and their kings and to the people of Israel.

Jesus was telling Ananias that Paul was His "chosen instrument" to fulfill the GC.

Further evidence is from Paul's own testimony:

Acts 26-
19 “So then, King Agrippa, I was not disobedient to the vision from heaven.
20 First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds.

v.20 is a clear statement of the GC.

One of the criteria of being an apostle was physically seeing the Lord. That was fulfilled when Jesus appeared to Paul on the road to Damascus.

1 Cor 9:1 - Am I not free? Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are not you my workmanship in the Lord?

So, Paul alone fits the requirements of being an apostle. And he fulfilled the GC more than any other apostle.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#13
Was Matthias present when Jesus commissioned the 11? No. There is no evidence of anyone other than the 11. So Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing.
Ummm...NO.

Acts chapter 1

[15] And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)
[16] Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
[17] For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
[18] Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
[19] And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
[20] For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take.
[21] Wherefore of these men which have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
[22] Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
[23] And they appointed two, Joseph called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias.
[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

According to Peter, Matthias "companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us", so there's the evidence that you claim doesn't exist.

As far as your dismissal of God in relation to Matthias' calling as an apostle is concerned, you couldn't possibly be more wrong.

For starters, God had foretold "in the book of Psalms" (vs . 20), as Peter so rightly noted, that somebody was going to need to take Judas' place or "his bishoprick let another take" (vs. 20).

This is what Peter was referring to:

"Let his days be few; and let another take his office." (Psalm 109:8)

GOD is the one who foreordained Judas' replacement, and GOD is the one to whom those gathered in the upper room prayed:

[24] And they prayed, and said, Thou, Lord, which knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen,
[25] That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place.
[26] And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

With such being the case, who are you to allege that "Matthias' lot casting was a human thing, not a God thing"?

Furthermore, PAUL HIMSELF recognized Matthias as one of the twelve, when he said:

I Corinthians chapter 15

[1] Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
[2] By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
[3] For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
[4] And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
[5] And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
[6] After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Jesus "was seen of Cephas" or Peter AFTER HIS RESURRECTION FROM THE DEAD, AND AFTER JUDAS HAD DIED, AND "THEN OF THE TWELVE", and "the twelve" included Matthias.

Just for the record.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
6,070
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#14
Yes, John 6:70 clearly states that Jesus chose the "12", and then He noted that one of them would betray Him. So Judas' name will NOT be on any of the foundation layers of the New Jerusalem.
And Jesus chose Paul to replace him.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,335
3,309
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#15
Rev 21:14 - The wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

OK, let's begin by agreeing that Judas' name won't be on any of the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem. He was a lost man. Peter makes clear in Acts 1 that Scripture prophesied that he would be replaced.

v.20 - “For,” said Peter, “it is written in the Book of Psalms: “ ‘May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,’ and, “ ‘May another take his place of leadership.’

Since the 12 foundations of the New Jerusalem will have the names of 12 apostles, who is the 12th name?

I have a solid evidence based answer but I'd like to see what others think about this.
Paul.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
7,819
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#16
Personally, I can't see where it says Matthias is excluded and Paul is the 12 apostle?

However, Paul helps us greatly in understanding what is being said in revelations.

Eph 2.

12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

..............consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Simply revelation is telling us of the unity of OT and NT believers.


If you say Paul was the 12th apostle you have to show the text where Matthias was ditched as one of the '12'.
 

CS1

Well-known member
May 23, 2012
10,335
3,309
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#17
Personally, I can't see where it says Matthias is excluded and Paul is the 12 apostle?

However, Paul helps us greatly in understanding what is being said in revelations.

Eph 2.

12 remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,

..............consequently, you are no longer foreigners and strangers, but fellow citizens with God’s people and also members of his household, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, with Christ Jesus himself as the chief cornerstone.

Simply revelation is telling us of the unity of OT and NT believers.


If you say Paul was the 12th apostle you have to show the text where Matthias was ditched as one of the '12'.
Jesus Personal called all the 12 including Judas. Jesus did not personally call Matthias, he was selected by casting lots and prayer.


Paul was called BY the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

phil36

Senior Member
Feb 12, 2009
7,819
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#18
Jesus Personal called all the 12 including Judas. Jesus did not personally call Matthias, he was selected by casting lots and prayer.


Paul was called BY the Lord Jesus Christ.

So just to to sure I'm clear in what you are saying. Are you saying Matthias never was a proper apostle. Or not one at all?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
33,356
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#19
Are there any passages where people are called apostles who are not one of the 12 original and not Paul or Matthias?
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#20
Are there any passages where people are called apostles who are not one of the 12 original and not Paul or Matthias?
"Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul, heard of, they rent their clothes, and ran in among the people, crying out," (Acts 14:14)