Who understands and can explain the meaning of Romans 9:3-4?

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May 9, 2019
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#1
Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,067
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#2
Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.
 
May 9, 2019
40
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#3
This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.
 
May 9, 2019
40
9
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#4
The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.
I'm curious as to why you decided to forego interpreting Roman 3:4 to quote scripture from a different book of the Bible. I was not even asking about the Book of Acts at all.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
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#5
I'm curious as to why you decided to forego interpreting Roman 3:4 to quote scripture from a different book of the Bible. I was not even asking about the Book of Acts at all.
Romans 9 basically summarized Paul's anguish over the nation Israel's rejection of Jesus. As you have stated, being Abraham's physical descendants, they had the first stab at accepting Jesus, while Gentiles were denied that opportunity.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,814
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#6
Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Romans chapter 9-11 are focused entirely on the nation of Israel, their unbelief after Christ came as their King-Messiah, and after the Gospel was proclaimed to the Jews first (then to the Gentiles). Also how their unbelief opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles. But also the eventual salvation of Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

Verse 3. Paul is not only expressing the sorrow of his heart over their unbelief, but through that God's sorrow of heart over Israel. Paul goes so far as to say that he would be willing to face eternal damnation if through that all the Jews would be saved. That is how much he cared.

Verse 4. Then he presents us with the outstanding spiritual privileges given to the Israelites (the twelve tribes of Israel) and how that should really have resulted in their salvation.

a. "The adoption" -- God chose Israel out of all the nations of the world to represent Him on earth as a Royal Priesthood.

b. "The glory" -- God condescended to visit the tabernacle and temple in Israel and show His actual presence by displaying His Shekinah glory (brilliance) above the Mercy Seat.

c. "The covenants" -- God gave Israel both the Old Covenant (under Moses), and the New Covenant (under Christ), and the New Covenant extends to all mankind through the blood of Christ.

d. "The giving of the Law" -- Israel was privileged to receive through Moses the Ten Commandments, written on two tablets of stone "by the finger of God". These tablets were kept within the Ark of the Covenant. Furthermore He gave Israel 613 laws to govern their relations with God and their neighbor.

e. "The service of God" -- God gave Israel detailed instructions regarding the various offerings which would be made by the Levitical priesthood to ensure that all the sins of Israel were covered by animal sacrifices. And thus God could dwell among them. God also gave Israel a number of feasts, which would be types of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

f. "And the promises" -- God gave Israel a number of promises through His covenants, including the promised gift of the Holy Spirit and the New Birth.
 
May 9, 2019
40
9
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#7
The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.
Are you aware of the distinction between Jew and Israelite and the relationship between Jews and Gentiles as it pertains to Israel? Of which of the twelve tribes of Israel do the Jews belong? And do you know the identity of the Gentiles Paul is referring to in the book of Acts?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,067
222
63
#8
Are you aware of the distinction between Jew and Israelite and the relationship between Jews and Gentiles as it pertains to Israel? Of which of the twelve tribes of Israel do the Jews belong? And do you know the identity of the Gentiles Paul is referring to in the book of Acts?
Probably not as detailed as you but I do have some idea. Any particular point we could discuss?
 
May 9, 2019
40
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#9
The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.
Where does it say that God's plan for the Jews are set aside? Where did you get that from? What scripture backs up what you are saying?
Romans 1:11 states: "...Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin".

Romans 1:26 states "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:"
 
May 9, 2019
40
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#10
Yes you are not aware so you should be careful what you put forth in order that you do not confuse those who are trying to understand scripture the way it was meant to be understand.
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,067
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#11
Where does it say that God's plan for the Jews are set aside? Where did you get that from? What scripture backs up what you are saying?
Romans 11 states

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
 
May 9, 2019
40
9
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#12
Romans 11 states

25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
What are the scriptures really saying? Will all nations be saved?

Yes, ALL Israel shall be saved. Jews and Gentiles (The tribe of Judah plus the eleven other tribes, the Gentiles. In other words the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:21] which were scattered abroad, not any other nation). Gentiles is not all nations. This is why verse 26 emphasizes that all Israel shall be saved. If you have any doubt about this read the following scripture:


What nation of People will be saved?
Isaiah 45:17 which states: But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


What tribe of Israel shall be saved?
Jeremiah 23:6 which states: In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Who shall be saved?
Romans 9:27 which states: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

Paul is desiring that who be saved? All nations? Let's see:

Romans 10: 1 which states: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. (Paul is preaching about Israel to the Gentiles? Wake up. He's preaching to the lost sheep of Israel. The Gentiles are the lost sheep of Israel. See Matthew 15:21)

What nation shall receive repentance and forgiveness of sins? All nations? Let's see:
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

John preached to what nation of people concerning repentance?
Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

The bible is clear throughout about who God's chosen people are, who is going to be saved, who is going to receive repentance, forgiveness of sins, who the covenants are given to, who will receive the promises and who will inherit the kingdom. Let's stop playing games.
 
May 9, 2019
40
9
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#13
Romans chapter 9-11 are focused entirely on the nation of Israel, their unbelief after Christ came as their King-Messiah, and after the Gospel was proclaimed to the Jews first (then to the Gentiles). Also how their unbelief opened the door of salvation to the Gentiles. But also the eventual salvation of Israel after the Second Coming of Christ.

Verse 3. Paul is not only expressing the sorrow of his heart over their unbelief, but through that God's sorrow of heart over Israel. Paul goes so far as to say that he would be willing to face eternal damnation if through that all the Jews would be saved. That is how much he cared.

Verse 4. Then he presents us with the outstanding spiritual privileges given to the Israelites (the twelve tribes of Israel) and how that should really have resulted in their salvation.

a. "The adoption" -- God chose Israel out of all the nations of the world to represent Him on earth as a Royal Priesthood.

b. "The glory" -- God condescended to visit the tabernacle and temple in Israel and show His actual presence by displaying His Shekinah glory (brilliance) above the Mercy Seat.

c. "The covenants" -- God gave Israel both the Old Covenant (under Moses), and the New Covenant (under Christ), and the New Covenant extends to all mankind through the blood of Christ.

d. "The giving of the Law" -- Israel was privileged to receive through Moses the Ten Commandments, written on two tablets of stone "by the finger of God". These tablets were kept within the Ark of the Covenant. Furthermore He gave Israel 613 laws to govern their relations with God and their neighbor.

e. "The service of God" -- God gave Israel detailed instructions regarding the various offerings which would be made by the Levitical priesthood to ensure that all the sins of Israel were covered by animal sacrifices. And thus God could dwell among them. God also gave Israel a number of feasts, which would be types of Christ and His finished work of redemption.

f. "And the promises" -- God gave Israel a number of promises through His covenants, including the promised gift of the Holy Spirit and the New Birth.
So if the Israelites are the chosen people of God, who hath manifest his presence to the Israelites, and have given the covenants to the Israelites, and the laws, statutes, and commandments to the Israelites so that they the Israelites can serve God of Israel, and his promises (salvation, repentance, forgiveness of sins, and the kingdom) to the Israelites, how does any of this fit into the context of Christianity?
 

Guojing

Well-known member
Jan 12, 2019
1,067
222
63
#14
What are the scriptures really saying? Will all nations be saved?

Yes, ALL Israel shall be saved. Jews and Gentiles (The tribe of Judah plus the eleven other tribes, the Gentiles. In other words the lost sheep of Israel [Matthew 15:21] which were scattered abroad, not any other nation). Gentiles is not all nations. This is why verse 26 emphasizes that all Israel shall be saved. If you have any doubt about this read the following scripture:


What nation of People will be saved?
Isaiah 45:17 which states: But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.


What tribe of Israel shall be saved?
Jeremiah 23:6 which states: In his days Judah shall be saved , and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called , THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.

Who shall be saved?
Romans 9:27 which states: Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved.

Paul is desiring that who be saved? All nations? Let's see:

Romans 10: 1 which states: Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is , that they might be saved. (Paul is preaching about Israel to the Gentiles? Wake up. He's preaching to the lost sheep of Israel. The Gentiles are the lost sheep of Israel. See Matthew 15:21)

What nation shall receive repentance and forgiveness of sins? All nations? Let's see:
Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

John preached to what nation of people concerning repentance?
Acts 13:24 When John had first preached before his coming the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel.

The bible is clear throughout about who God's chosen people are, who is going to be saved, who is going to receive repentance, forgiveness of sins, who the covenants are given to, who will receive the promises and who will inherit the kingdom. Let's stop playing games.
I don't understand your hostility here. I did not say everyone will be saved. I am saying that because the Jews rejected Jesus as their Messiah, the path is open for Gentiles to believe in Jesus, thru the Gospel of Grace revealed to the Apostle Paul.

Gentiles need to believe in Jesus to be saved. But once enough Gentiles are saved, only God the Father knows the exact number, then God will turn his attention back to the Jews.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
7,814
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#15
So if the Israelites are the chosen people of God, who hath manifest his presence to the Israelites, and have given the covenants to the Israelites, and the laws, statutes, and commandments to the Israelites so that they the Israelites can serve God of Israel, and his promises (salvation, repentance, forgiveness of sins, and the kingdom) to the Israelites, how does any of this fit into the context of Christianity?
The Gospel was to be first preached in Jerusalem, then Judea, then Samaria, and then in the rest of the world. The Church began with saved Jews in Jerusalem on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2). Thousands of Jews were saved on that day and later, including priests and Pharisees.

Believing Jews are called "the good olive tree" in Romans 11, whereas Gentiles are branches from "the wild olive tree" grafted into the good olive tree. So the Church is redeemed Jews and Gentiles in one Body.

However the general reception to the Gospel by Jews throughout the Roman empire was not what it should have been. Also, God had already planned for Gentiles to be within the Church. So eventually the Church became predominantly Gentile, and Christianity spread throughout the Roman empire and beyond.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
9,359
729
113
#16
Romans 9:3-4 states:
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants,and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
I would offer he was saying that if he could he would give his own life for those he loves. That is if it would do any good. Like the parable in Luke 16. If they do not believe God through all things written in the law and the prophets the exclusive source of faith. Then neither will they believe though one was raised from the dead. And later proved it with his own self. We walk by faith .

Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. Luke 16:29-31
 

Waggles

Senior Member
Sep 21, 2017
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South
adelaiderevival.com
#17
Are you aware of the distinction between Jew and Israelite and the relationship between Jews and Gentiles as it pertains to Israel? Of which of the twelve tribes of Israel do the Jews belong? And do you know the identity of the Gentiles Paul is referring to in the book of Acts?
When the 10 tribes of Israel were taken away by the Assyrians they supposedly became lost as an identifiable nation.
Thus in history we have references to Israel (after their abduction by Assyria) and to Judah (the remaining Jews not lost).
Israel is later often referred to as Ephraim, her principal tribe and the remaining Jews (Judah, Benjamin and Levites) are referred to
as Judah.
Ezekiel 37 - the valley of the dry bones: Ephraim and Judah rejoined to become again one people.
More answers are clearly available in Ezekiel 34 (lost sheep) and

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the
land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Jeremiah 31:
And this is the book of Acts and the delivering of the gospel to the gentiles of Samaria and the Roman world.

There are many wonderful books and treatises on what who and where are the lost 10 tribes of Israel.
I would say given the promised new covenant would be given to the house of Israel then many have argued that the lost tribes
are indeed the Europeans and the principal cultural nations of Europe; with Ephraim being Britain with her royal monarchy.

But in any case the gospel is to be preached to the whole world and to all peoples, tongues and nations.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
2,941
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#18
The entire Acts book explained one major theme "The Jews rejected Jesus Christ as their messiah". Thus God's plan for the Jews are set aside for the current dispensation of Grace to the Gentiles.
Not all Jews rejected their Messiah..........

They definitely were being provoked to jealousy with the Holy Spirit being poured out on the Gentiles.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
2,941
1,059
113
#19
This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.
I'm sensing some jealousy..................... I do believe God's plan is working.......:unsure:

The Israelites provoked God to jealousy so many times with false idols............... I do believe He is dealing with Israel as a lover of their souls.

In the New Jerusalem that is coming...... only the Wall is made up of the 12 tribes of Israel, everything else is all nations, tongues and people.

Interesting that even today.............. only the Wall remains in Israel.......:unsure: I believe it is called the wailing wall.......:unsure:

So, who's crying now........... sorry, just putting some salt on some jealousy wounds....:love::love:
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
2,941
1,059
113
#20
This is the correct understanding of Romans 3:4:

The honor given by God to be his chosen people belong to the Israelites.

The presence of God as manifest through the ark and the temple belongs to the Israelites.

The covenants of God belong to the Israelites

The laws of God were given to the Israelites because they belong to the Israelites.

The service of God through the keeping his laws, statutes, and commandments belong to the Israelites

The promises (Salvation, Repentance, and Forgiveness of Sins, and Kingdom of Heaven) belong to the Israelites.

Paul is emphasizing that all these things belong to Israel not any other nation.
What you have described is The Wall that will surround the New Jerusalem.