Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Did I read this right? (Scripture)

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BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#1
[h=1]Romans 5:14 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now... I know people are ready with their pitchforks, anticipating an argument for sinless perfectionism, but I am not making that argument. This verse just caught my eye, saying that some people didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin.

Am I reading that correctly, that some people didn't sin, or is it saying they didn't sin in the particular way Adam sinned? I understand as we read the context it is speaking of Adam's transgression and it bringing condemnation to all, to everyone. [/FONT]
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#2
Romans 5:12-14 AMP

12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned.
13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned [c]as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].


Romans 5:12-14 KJV

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,055
313
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#3
Romans 5:12-14 AMP

12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, so death spread to all people [no one being able to stop it or escape its power], because they all sinned.
13 Sin was [committed] in the world before the Law [was given], but sin is not charged [against anyone] when there is no law [against it]. 14 Yet death ruled [over mankind] from Adam to Moses [the Lawgiver], even over those who had not sinned [c]as Adam did. Adam is a type of Him (Christ) who was to come [but in reverse—Adam brought destruction, Christ brought salvation].


Romans 5:12-14 KJV

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Thank you for adding context, I am singling out the verse because what it says is... peculiar.
 

FlSnookman7

Senior Member
Jun 27, 2015
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#4
I was going to add to my post but its raining here so work is staying busy. I think Paul is saying that even without the law death was able to rule over man because of Adam's transgression. I think he is talking about imputed sin here but not sure.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
2,283
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#5
All it's saying IMO is that we are all born with the sinful nature because of Adam's sin. Even before we commit a sin, we have the potential to sin because of the fallen nature of our flesh.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,055
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#6
I was going to add to my post but its raining here so work is staying busy. I think Paul is saying that even without the law death was able to rule over man because of Adam's transgression. I think he is talking about imputed sin here but not sure.
I get that as well, but the elephant in the room (so to speak) is that some people after Adam "had not sinned in the similitude of Adam's transgression" or didn't "sin as Adam sinned." So whilst they themselves didn't sin, Adam's sin still affected humanity (after the Fall) because people were dying. Not to say everyone was sinless, but the verse seems to suggest some people didn't sin themselves.

This is actually very interesting. How far down the line of history was it before sin was rampant to the degree that it is today? Was there a period of time where sin grew exponentially? Was it gradual?
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
4,055
313
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#7
All it's saying IMO is that we are all born with the sinful nature because of Adam's sin. Even before we commit a sin, we have the potential to sin because of the fallen nature of our flesh.
I suppose that is one way to look at it. Thanks for your input.
 

BenFTW

Senior Member
Oct 7, 2012
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#8
Romans 4 has so much to say. Lol, I've just been reading through Romans tonight, backwards funny enough. I know the OP is Romans 5, I just am kind of reading through and finding so many awesome tidbits.
 

lightbearer

Senior Member
Jun 17, 2017
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HBG. Pa. USA
#9
I suppose that is one way to look at it. Thanks for your input.
That which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:(Rom 1:17-20)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,916
1,413
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#10
Romans 5:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now... I know people are ready with their pitchforks, anticipating an argument for sinless perfectionism, but I am not making that argument. This verse just caught my eye, saying that some people didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin.

Am I reading that correctly, that some people didn't sin, or is it saying they didn't sin in the particular way Adam sinned? I understand as we read the context it is speaking of Adam's transgression and it bringing condemnation to all, to everyone.
who had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression. obviously we're not contradicting 'for all have sinned'

so what is the similitude of Adam's transgression?
Adam was not deceived, 1 Timothy 2:14, and Adam had full knowledge of a specific command, given directly to him in particular, not to take the action he took. he knew exactly where the command came from, and what the result would be if he disobeyed.

backing up one verse in Romans 5, sin is still sin even without law, though it's not imputed as transgression: and death still results. ignorance doesn't exonerate.

good thing there is an atonement, yes?
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,358
91
48
#11
Romans 5:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now... I know people are ready with their pitchforks, anticipating an argument for sinless perfectionism, but I am not making that argument. This verse just caught my eye, saying that some people didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin.

Am I reading that correctly, that some people didn't sin, or is it saying they didn't sin in the particular way Adam sinned? I understand as we read the context it is speaking of Adam's transgression and it bringing condemnation to all, to everyone.
Everybody is accountable for their own sin, so it would be saying that we did not sin the way Adam sinned, for only Adam and Eve sinned by eating from the tree, and only they could sin that way for they were banned from the garden, and it was protected from anybody entering it again.

And it is saying that even though we did not sin after the manner of Adam, death still came upon us unless we correct it by coming to God.

We are not blamed for Adam and Eve's sin, and their sin does not come upon us, but when they ate from the tree they then had a choice between good and evil, so that choice came upon all humans born in to this world, so we are born not knowing God, so we will do wrong before we come to God in the truth, where Adam and Eve were created knowing God.

Adam and Eve did not have a choice to sin, and it would of never entered their mind to sin unless an outside source tempted them, so God allowed Satan to tempt Eve and she sinned, and then Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him that it was alright to eat the fruit for she did not die.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#12
Eve was the outside source that tempted Adam by showing him that it was alright to eat the fruit for she did not die.
Adam was not deceived
(1 Timothy 2:14)

if we've got Adam thinking the Woman wasn't dying, or that he wouldn't die also, we've got Adam deceived, and we're contradicting 1 Timothy. that can't be right.
 
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MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,358
91
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#13
Adam was not deceived
(1 Timothy 2:14)

if you've got Adam thinking the Woman wasn't dying, or that he wouldn't die also, you've got Adam deceived, and you're contradicting 1 Timothy. that can't be right.
1Ti 2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Gen 3:12 And the man said, The woman whom thou gavest to be with me, she gave me of the tree, and I did eat.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Adam was not deceived by Satan but hearkened to his wife for she showed Adam it was alright to eat if the tree for nothing happened to her.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#14
Listened to his wife yes but deceived either by her or through her, no.

This is more complex than it looks like at first glance :rolleyes:
If we've got Adam thinking it was 'ok' don't we have him deceived? Can't be right.

The Bible is incredibly deep :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,916
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#15
If nothing changed about the Woman when she ate then we've got God lying.
If she was changed, if death entered into her, but Adam was oblivious to it, then we've got Adam deceived and 1 Timothy is false.

Is that right?
 

Joseppi

Senior Member
Jan 4, 2018
886
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#16
The context of Adam’s sin is knowledge of the law of God.

With Moses came the law.
Before Moses there wasn’t a codified law of God.

Same thing today.
In ignorance of law men sin.
In full knowledge of the law men sin.
 
Sep 4, 2012
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#17
Adam disobeyed a direct commandment of GOD. Men after him had no such law to disobey, but sinned nevertheless because anything that wrongs one's self or another person is sin. All men know inwardly that that is wrong and evil.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
4,881
116
63
#18
Romans 5:14 King James Version (KJV)

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now... I know people are ready with their pitchforks, anticipating an argument for sinless perfectionism, but I am not making that argument. This verse just caught my eye, saying that some people didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin.

Am I reading that correctly, that some people didn't sin, or is it saying they didn't sin in the particular way Adam sinned? I understand as we read the context it is speaking of Adam's transgression and it bringing condemnation to all, to everyone.
Something about Adam's sin made him a figure of him that was to come...Jesus Christ. Adam knew what he was doing. He was not deceived. As a type of Christ that was to come, Adam became sin by sinning to be with his bride. What Adam could not do is rescue his bride from her sin. The last Adam accomplished what the first Adam could not accomplish. Romans 4, 1 Corinthians 15.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,916
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#19
Something about Adam's sin made him a figure of him that was to come...Jesus Christ. Adam knew what he was doing. He was not deceived. As a type of Christ that was to come, Adam became sin by sinning to be with his bride. What Adam could not do is rescue his bride from her sin. The last Adam accomplished what the first Adam could not accomplish. Romans 4, 1 Corinthians 15.
Yes, I think he was trying to save her. It was probably not her intention, but she was essentially trying to kill him, and if he wasn't deceived he knew it, but took the fruit regardless. If that's true why would he think she could be saved this way?

((not that it wasn't sin))
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
18,916
1,413
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#20
Yes, I think he was trying to save her. It was probably not her intention, but she was essentially trying to kill him, and if he wasn't deceived he knew it, but took the fruit regardless. If that's true why would he think she could be saved this way?

((not that it wasn't sin))
As Christ also willingly died for our sake, and He did not sin :)