Whoa, whoa, whoa!!! Did I read this right? (Scripture)

[Grandpa]

Since the eternal has always existed and will always exist, then of anything which is eternal would never have a beginning nor would it ever die.

So if Adam was created then he would not have always existed.

Therefore it is without question that Adam had a beginning.

Thus if only the eternal is without beginning, the Adam would not have been eternal.

So if only the eternal does not die, then how did the death of Adam result from sin if
the only sin Adam could have committed would have been if he did not die?

I think you are confused on the meaning of eternal.

Eternal doesn't mean without beginning.

Eternal means without end.


When the Lord Jesus gives us Eternal Life it means Life without end. It doesn't mean Life without beginning as that would be meaningless.

Do you see?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Since the eternal has always existed and will always exist, then of anything which is eternal would never have a beginning nor would it ever die.

So if Adam was created then he would not have always existed.

Therefore it is without question that Adam had a beginning.

Thus if only the eternal is without beginning, the Adam would not have been eternal.

So if only the eternal does not die, then how did the death of Adam result from sin if
the only sin Adam could have committed would have been if he did not die?

Adam was told if he sinned he would die, so in essense, adam had conditional life, not eternal life, since he could lose his life based on what he did.

eternal life is given to those who believe, it means they will never die, all people adam himself was given this the moment they trusted in god for their salvation. Thats what makes it different from conditional life

conditional life can end, wternal life will never end.

 

[Angela53510]

Not reading the whole thread, so if this has been said, please move on.

First, you are pulling out of context what is in the actual verse! Forget that Paul is clearly talking about everyone sinning since sin entered the world, through Adam.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." Romans 5:12-14

You should stop using the KJV, since you do not understand it. The KJV clearly states the truth, but the words it uses are not common, and therefore, you have ignored them. Here is the single verse in NET.

"Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed." Romans 5:14 NET


You missed the part in KJV, where it clearly says, "after the similitude" of Adam's transgression.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.' Romans 5:14 KJV

"After the similitude" in other versions is:

"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." NIV

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." ESV

"Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototypeof the Coming One."HCSB

In other words, people DID SIN! But they did not sin by eating the fruit in the garden that was forbidden, but by sinning in other ways. Here is the Greek:

"12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ’ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον—13 ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, ἁμαρτία δὲ οὐκ ἐλλογεῖται μὴ ὄντος νόμου,14 ἀλλὰ ἐβασίλευσεν ὁ θάνατος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ μέχρι Μωϋσέως καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς μὴ ἁμαρτήσαντας ἐπὶ τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ, ὅς ἐστιν τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος." Romans 5:12-14 Greek

πάντες ἥμαρτον - this means ALL SINNED

Paul continues in verse 13a

ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world."

The grammatical pattern, which is similar to what Paul uses in 2 Corinthians, in refuting error.

1. Paul justifies his statement at the end of 5:12 that "all have sinned [in the course of history]" by pointing out that "before the [Mosaic] law was given, sin was in the world."

2. An objection that he knows could be raised against his justifying comment is given: "But sin is not "δὲ οὐκ" taken into account when there is no law."

3.The apostle rebuts this objection: "Nevertheless, (ἀλλὰ) death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way by breaking a command as did Adam." This rebuttal draws attention to the fact people died before the Mosaic law was given, and so implies that since death, which came into the world because of sin, was a reality for everyone prior to the time of Moses, the sin of ALL people was also a reality throughout all human history.


My advice to you, Ben, is:

1. Stop reading the KJV because you do not understand it. I am reading the NET Bible, you might find that more helpful, than Shakespearean English in the KJV.

2. Stop trying to make a new doctrine, thinking you have discovered something new, on the basis of a 400 year old translation. The age is important. Because, scholars have studied the KJV up and down and backwards and forwards, and no one has come up with a weird doctrine that there were sinless people living in the world before the Fall. History is important.

3. Read ALL of the Bible to figure out something like "there were people living in the world with no sin" on the basis of a few words out of context. To make a Biblical doctrine, please use Greek. Second, that doctrine must appear in many places, not one. Of course, this doesn't even appear in the verse you posted. But still, when you can post 2 or 5 or 10 verses that say the same thing, then you might be onto something.

So no, you have completely read the verse wrong. I hope that helps.

 

[BenFTW]

Not reading the whole thread, so if this has been said, please move on.

First, you are pulling out of context what is in the actual verse! Forget that Paul is clearly talking about everyone sinning since sin entered the world, through Adam.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." Romans 5:12-14

You should stop using the KJV, since you do not understand it. The KJV clearly states the truth, but the words it uses are not common, and therefore, you have ignored them. Here is the single verse in NET.

"Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed." Romans 5:14 NET


You missed the part in KJV, where it clearly says, "after the similitude" of Adam's transgression.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.' Romans 5:14 KJV

"After the similitude" in other versions is:

"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." NIV

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." ESV

"Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototypeof the Coming One."HCSB

In other words, people DID SIN! But they did not sin by eating the fruit in the garden that was forbidden, but by sinning in other ways. Here is the Greek:

"12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ’ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον—13 ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, ἁμαρτία δὲ οὐκ ἐλλογεῖται μὴ ὄντος νόμου,14 ἀλλὰ ἐβασίλευσεν ὁ θάνατος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ μέχρι Μωϋσέως καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς μὴ ἁμαρτήσαντας ἐπὶ τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ, ὅς ἐστιν τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος." Romans 5:12-14 Greek

πάντες ἥμαρτον - this means ALL SINNED

Paul continues in verse 13a

ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world."

The grammatical pattern, which is similar to what Paul uses in 2 Corinthians, in refuting error.

1. Paul justifies his statement at the end of 5:12 that "all have sinned [in the course of history]" by pointing out that "before the [Mosaic] law was given, sin was in the world."

2. An objection that he knows could be raised against his justifying comment is given: "But sin is not "δὲ οὐκ" taken into account when there is no law."

3.The apostle rebuts this objection: "Nevertheless, (ἀλλὰ) death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way by breaking a command as did Adam." This rebuttal draws attention to the fact people died before the Mosaic law was given, and so implies that since death, which came into the world because of sin, was a reality for everyone prior to the time of Moses, the sin of ALL people was also a reality throughout all human history.


My advice to you, Ben, is:

1. Stop reading the KJV because you do not understand it. I am reading the NET Bible, you might find that more helpful, than Shakespearean English in the KJV.

2. Stop trying to make a new doctrine, thinking you have discovered something new, on the basis of a 400 year old translation. The age is important. Because, scholars have studied the KJV up and down and backwards and forwards, and no one has come up with a weird doctrine that there were sinless people living in the world before the Fall. History is important.

3. Read ALL of the Bible to figure out something like "there were people living in the world with no sin" on the basis of a few words out of context. To make a Biblical doctrine, please use Greek. Second, that doctrine must appear in many places, not one. Of course, this doesn't even appear in the verse you posted. But still, when you can post 2 or 5 or 10 verses that say the same thing, then you might be onto something.

So no, you have completely read the verse wrong. I hope that helps.

I appreciate your input, but I will say, I wasn't trying to make a new doctrine nor did I miss the "similitude" part of the verse. I actually looked up the Greek and dived into the verse to see what it was saying. Even Tourist knew what I was saying.

That's a very interesting passage that I was not aware of. Seems like each time that I read the bible I notice something that I had missed previously or even considered. I believe that it probably refers, like you are surmising that there are people that didn't sin in the particular way that Adam did. I'm not sure what way that was because as far as I can tell the bible only mentioned one time how Adam sinned by sharing the forbidden fruit with Eve because he really didn't want to live if she were to die.

It was worded in a way that seemed to say that some didn't sin but still died. To me, it is pointless either way, because of original sin and Adam's sin being imputed to man. Like others pointed out, after Adam all that were born were born with a sin nature. I just was working out the meaning of the verse, not making a definitive statement.

I like the KJV just fine.

 

[Stunnedbygrace]

Not reading the whole thread, so if this has been said, please move on.

First, you are pulling out of context what is in the actual verse! Forget that Paul is clearly talking about everyone sinning since sin entered the world, through Adam.

"Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law.14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." Romans 5:12-14

You should stop using the KJV, since you do not understand it. The KJV clearly states the truth, but the words it uses are not common, and therefore, you have ignored them. Here is the single verse in NET.

"Yet death reigned from Adam until Moses even over those who did not sin in the same way that Adam (who is a type of the coming one) transgressed." Romans 5:14 NET


You missed the part in KJV, where it clearly says, "after the similitude" of Adam's transgression.

"Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.' Romans 5:14 KJV

"After the similitude" in other versions is:

"Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come." NIV

"Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sinning was not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come." ESV

"Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the likeness of Adam’s transgression. He is a prototypeof the Coming One."HCSB

In other words, people DID SIN! But they did not sin by eating the fruit in the garden that was forbidden, but by sinning in other ways. Here is the Greek:

"12 Διὰ τοῦτο ὥσπερ δι’ ἑνὸς ἀνθρώπου ἡ ἁμαρτία εἰς τὸν κόσμον εἰσῆλθεν καὶ διὰ τῆς ἁμαρτίας ὁ θάνατος, καὶ οὕτως εἰς πάντας ἀνθρώπους ὁ θάνατος διῆλθεν ἐφ’ ᾧ πάντες ἥμαρτον—13 ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, ἁμαρτία δὲ οὐκ ἐλλογεῖται μὴ ὄντος νόμου,14 ἀλλὰ ἐβασίλευσεν ὁ θάνατος ἀπὸ Ἀδὰμ μέχρι Μωϋσέως καὶ ἐπὶ τοὺς μὴ ἁμαρτήσαντας ἐπὶ τῷ ὁμοιώματι τῆς παραβάσεως Ἀδάμ, ὅς ἐστιν τύπος τοῦ μέλλοντος." Romans 5:12-14 Greek

πάντες ἥμαρτον - this means ALL SINNED

Paul continues in verse 13a

ἄχρι γὰρ νόμου ἁμαρτία ἦν ἐν κόσμῳ, "for before the law was given, sin was in the world."

The grammatical pattern, which is similar to what Paul uses in 2 Corinthians, in refuting error.

1. Paul justifies his statement at the end of 5:12 that "all have sinned [in the course of history]" by pointing out that "before the [Mosaic] law was given, sin was in the world."

2. An objection that he knows could be raised against his justifying comment is given: "But sin is not "δὲ οὐκ" taken into account when there is no law."

3.The apostle rebuts this objection: "Nevertheless, (ἀλλὰ) death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who did not sin in the same way by breaking a command as did Adam." This rebuttal draws attention to the fact people died before the Mosaic law was given, and so implies that since death, which came into the world because of sin, was a reality for everyone prior to the time of Moses, the sin of ALL people was also a reality throughout all human history.


My advice to you, Ben, is:

1. Stop reading the KJV because you do not understand it. I am reading the NET Bible, you might find that more helpful, than Shakespearean English in the KJV.

2. Stop trying to make a new doctrine, thinking you have discovered something new, on the basis of a 400 year old translation. The age is important. Because, scholars have studied the KJV up and down and backwards and forwards, and no one has come up with a weird doctrine that there were sinless people living in the world before the Fall. History is important.

3. Read ALL of the Bible to figure out something like "there were people living in the world with no sin" on the basis of a few words out of context. To make a Biblical doctrine, please use Greek. Second, that doctrine must appear in many places, not one. Of course, this doesn't even appear in the verse you posted. But still, when you can post 2 or 5 or 10 verses that say the same thing, then you might be onto something.

So no, you have completely read the verse wrong. I hope that helps.

He wasn't trying to make a doctrine. In my opinion, He was just asking a question. Did you read the whole post?

 

[posthuman]

Well, this received a lot of interesting responses over night and in the morning. lol

sidetracked a little too lol

 

[joefizz]

I get that as well, but the elephant in the room (so to speak) is that some people after Adam "had not sinned in the similitude of Adam's transgression" or didn't "sin as Adam sinned." So whilst they themselves didn't sin, Adam's sin still affected humanity (after the Fall) because people were dying. Not to say everyone was sinless, but the verse seems to suggest some people didn't sin themselves.

This is actually very interesting. How far down the line of history was it before sin was rampant to the degree that it is today? Was there a period of time where sin grew exponentially? Was it gradual?

Even when you add (so to speak) I ain't got any idea where an "elephant" gets mixed into this!?

 

[Zmouth]

I think you are confused on the meaning of eternal.

Eternal doesn't mean without beginning.

Eternal means without end.


When the Lord Jesus gives us Eternal Life it means Life without end. It doesn't mean Life without beginning as that would be meaningless.

Do you see?

So your belief is in a God that did not always exist?

Then where did God come from? nothing? No offense but if God came from nothing, then what difference would it matter how eternal is define because nothing can not create anything.

But eternal does not mean immortal any more that mortal mean everlasting.

You can add 0 to 0, divide 0 from 0, substract 0 from 0, or multiply 0 by 0 and the only result is nothing.

Sorry but you define eternal by any doctrine you desire but unfortunately just because one believes 0 plus 0 equals one only tells me that they don't know it equals two.

In the scriptures the eternal and everlasting are demonstrated in the Torah, with the passage of Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: Deut 33:27

In the dictionary, you can find two different definitions of eternal, the one cited is Eternal dictionary definition | eternal defined

• The definition of an eternal is someone or something without a beginning or an end.
  An example of an eternal being is God.
  

​

So the two immutable things not only show me, but tell me that there is no reason to say anything more than, you might be right.

 

[maxwel]

"after the similitude of Adam's transgression"


Hmmm... what was Adam's transgression?

Hmmm... he violated a direct command of God by eating the wrong piece of fruit.

Hmmm... not many people have sinned in that exact same way.




There is no mystery here.

You have to reach pretty hard to create confusion where things are simple and clear.

 

[Zmouth]

"after the similitude of Adam's transgression"


Hmmm... what was Adam's transgression?

Hmmm... he violated a direct command of God by eating the wrong piece of fruit.

Hmmm... not many people have sinned in that exact same way.




There is no mystery here.

You have to reach pretty hard to create confusion where things are simple and clear.

What the fruit of the fig tree?

 

[tourist]

What the fruit of the fig tree?

I'm going to venture a guess and say that the fruit of the fig tree is figs.

 

[Magenta]

what was Adam's transgression?

Hmmm... he violated a direct command of God by eating the wrong piece of fruit.

​

 

[joefizz]

So your belief is in a God that did not always exist?

Then where did God come from? nothing? No offense but if God came from nothing, then what difference would it matter how eternal is define because nothing can not create anything.

But eternal does not mean immortal any more that mortal mean everlasting.

You can add 0 to 0, divide 0 from 0, substract 0 from 0, or multiply 0 by 0 and the only result is nothing.

Sorry but you define eternal by any doctrine you desire but unfortunately just because one believes 0 plus 0 equals one only tells me that they don't know it equals two.

In the scriptures the eternal and everlasting are demonstrated in the Torah, with the passage of Deuteronomy 33:27
The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: Deut 33:27

In the dictionary, you can find two different definitions of eternal, the one cited is Eternal dictionary definition | eternal defined

• The definition of an eternal is someone or something without a beginning or an end.
  An example of an eternal being is God.
  

​

So the two immutable things not only show me, but tell me that there is no reason to say anything more than, you might be right.

It's clear that Grandpa is talking about Life regarding us as people "not God" in context concerning the definition of "eternal" and considering that "eternal" typically in the bible means "on and on or everlasting" it makes sense he would react as he did I myself until now didn't know that "eternal" can mean without beginning or end"

 

[dcontroversal]

It goes to our nature...Adam chose to eat knowing full well it was wrong.....how many children, babies etc. die without every actually choosing to do evil and or knowing that their actions are evil? Yet they still carry the fallen, sinful, fleshly nature!

 

[tourist]

​

He should've went for the watermelon instead or perhaps a strawberry.

 

[Gabriel2020]

How do we know that Adam knew what kind of fruit he was eating? When the serpent spoke to Eve, she was alone, if not, Adam would have intervened. I believe. But he was with her when she ate the fruit, meaning she brought it to him, and might not have told him what he was eating since there was many fruit trees in the garden. He did not think she would do such a thing.,but when he ate also, he realized what fruit it was.

 

[Zmouth]

Adam was told if he sinned he would die, so in essense, adam had conditional life, not eternal life, since he could lose his life based on what he did.

eternal life is given to those who believe, it means they will never die, all people adam himself was given this the moment they trusted in god for their salvation. Thats what makes it different from conditional life

conditional life can end, wternal life will never end.

Okay, so Adam wasn't eternal since he was a conditional, what a conditional means I have no idea but as long as you do and Jesus do then what difference does it make right?

If the LORD told Adam he would not die if he ate from the tree of life then no sense pondering why he put it within the two cherubim which turn every way producing the light above the brightness of the sun to keep man from any possibility of reaching it then isn't the word of God obvious?

And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. Matt 21:22

 

[Tina2018]

[h=1]Romans 5:14 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Now... I know people are ready with their pitchforks, anticipating an argument for sinless perfectionism, but I am not making that argument. This verse just caught my eye, saying that some people didn't sin in the likeness of Adam's sin.

Am I reading that correctly, that some people didn't sin, or is it saying they didn't sin in the particular way Adam sinned? I understand as we read the context it is speaking of Adam's transgression and it bringing condemnation to all, to everyone. [/FONT]

Just my thoughts but the law came through moses so before moses there was no law to break which means their was no sin to commit, unless the tree of knowledge of god and evil was planted outside the garden of eden, which we know is not the case

The people before moses were born under the punishment and because so they paid the price which was death

 

[Zmouth]

I'm going to venture a guess and say that the fruit of the fig tree is figs.

So how did you know that?


So where do you imagine the fruit of the tree of life is?

 

[dcontroversal]

Just a point to ponder...Jesus and Adam had the same nature before Adam fell..

1st Adam->>flesh, no sin, ability to choose, sinned and fell = death

2nd Adam->>flesh, no sin, ability to choose, was tempted, did no sin, put to death for sin, but death had no hold on him because he never sinned

Man restored to pre-fall sin of first Adam through the righteousness of the 2nd Adam being imputed by faith!