Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

7seasrekeyed · Sep 8, 2017

not at all

even if you prefer 'of' rather than 'in', there is still nothing to support a passivity in believing

Jesus had faith His Father would raise Him from the dead...He did say 'into your hands I commend my spirit'

now if we had the faith of Christ, would we not have 'perfect' faith? right? that would be Christ's faith? yes?

we would all be on the same page if we all had perfect faith, ie the faith of Christ

that is not true, so therefore, the observant person must change their perception and agree with scripture which states there are not only varying degrees of faith (personal) but different 'types' of faith

there are far too many directives in scripture, concerning faith as being both diverse in application, ie: have faith in God, or Jesus saying someone had 'little' faith, or where Jesus says 'your' faith...indicating a personal faith, and so on...way too numerous to go into detail here and not sure it would help anyways...a person can research this if they are vitally interested in the op subject matter

as far as a concern over works, works do not save nor do they create any kind of faith

what scripture does say, is that works are the result of faith

so, salvation is the gift of God, we are saved, we desire to obey

obedience is not a work but an outcome of faith

and that will be hotly debated by many in this forum and in fact, is ongoing, to no avail that I can see, as I type this post

Locutus · Sep 8, 2017

Dino246 said:

This issue really seems to come down to the KJV versus other translations. There is enough evidence in any version to show clearly that the faith which saves is the faith which is put in the finished work of Christ; I don't think that is the issue though.

Even in the KJV there are examples where it is said, "Your faith has..." with a good result such as healing. As I see it, those who advocate for the KJV version of particular verses as being the final word need to distinguish clearly between faith that results in healing (or whatever else) and faith which results in salvation. Personally, I don't see any justification for the distinction.

Not sure what yer saying here Dino - care to clarify?

followjesus · Sep 8, 2017

• The Cross of Christ, and the Cross of Christ
alone, must be the object of our faith in order
for us to receive what has been given (I Cor.
1:17, 23; Gal. 6:14).

this is a not at all correct, were not told to have faith in the cross even One time, Have faith in God Himself through Jesus Christ is the Only object Our Faith can be focused on. Our Faith Has to be in God, through Jesus. the "cross" is Just something God ordained for Jesus to suffer upon. it was a display of Gods Love toward us, an offer of His outstretched Hand reaching to mankind to reconcile us to Him.

its the gate by which we enter, Our Faith is displayed in Hearing and obeying the good shepherds voice. its strange because when i was about 5 i was told Jesus died for my sins...I believed that then not even Knowing what sin really was, but i believed that its the reason im a christian. That My Lord and King would suffer and die for me, for all i have done wrong. <<<<< That is the ultimate purpose of the " cross" its meant to win our Hearts to Jesus, and bring obedience to Him because of that Heart that is won by the suffering of Jesus On the cross.

its the foundation of why we are saved, something we have to 100 percent accept, but the cross alone is not salvation and not where our faith is meant to reside. Faith has to be in God, that He IS and that He IS A REWARDER of them that DILIGENTLY SEEK HIM. <<<<<that is just what it is it cant be changed Gotta believe that God rewards those who seek Him. and thats what we should all be those who diligently seek the Lord with all our Hearts. in appreciation of His suffering, we dont take the cross as a reason we dont need to have faith......its meant to build our Faith in God knowing How much He loves us.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 8, 2017

I've hear this 'faith in the cross' teaching and it makes no sense to me either

the cross symbolizes death, not life

right. that's scripture

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 8, 2017

It is not our faithfulness that brings blessings, but our Faith in Christ and Him Crucified; Trusting that He is Faithful (2 Tim. 2:13).

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 8, 2017

7seasrekeyed said:

The Cross = The Blood of Jesus / The Finished Work of Jesus Christ. Sometime you may see in the scripture, "Christ Crucified"; it all means the same thing.

The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)

Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!

The only way to God is through Jesus Christ (John 14:6)...the only way to Jesus Christ is by the Means of the Cross (Luke 14:27). The only way to the Cross is a denial of self (Luke 9:23). If any person tries to come any other way, Jesus says, "they are a thief and a robber" (John 10:1).

1. Jesus Christ is the source of all blessings.
2. The Cross is the means by which all blessings are given.
3. The object of our faith must be Christ and the Cross.
4. That being done, the Holy Spirit will greatly help us.
[SUB][/SUB]

Blain · Sep 8, 2017

Well think of this Desertrose If it is our faith then the real question is who and what our faith is in isn't it? When Jesus healed people and performed miracles on earth it was mostly because people had faith in him not themselves. Yes it is our faith that matters but it's about who our faith is in, is it in our own amount of faith we think we bear? or is it the amount of faith we have in him?

The amazing thing with him is that the impossible is so easily possible not because of anything of us or because of our own strength or weaknesses or because of what we may be lacking in or not lacking nor is it even about our purity and righteousness it was never about us it has has always been about him.
For instance on my walk today I was talking to God how I want him to use me regardless of the cost or how far we have to go I made it clear to him that it didn't matter if the task at hand is utterly terrifying and way beyond my abilities and I told him I can say this to him so confidently and without any fear because it's not my own strength or skills or abilities that I rely on it's his 100%

I truly believe the impossible is so easily possible because of how much I believe in his power and abilities no matter how much I may be lacking or anything of me in fact I truly believe that if it was his will I could command the skies to bow down and glorify him. I trust in him and believe in him so much that I know all I need is a willing heart and his will to be done and anything is possible, He doesn't require a massive amount of faith to do amazing things he simply needs a heart that relies and believes in his capabilities and power, a willing heart to be used however he may see fit and a heart that waits for his will that is it.

But people can mistake this concept thinking faith is a currency of sorts like you may be short of just a little bit of faith and that is why you asked but didn't receive or why you continue to not be healed faith alone isn't enough you need have completelyfaith in him not the amount of faith you think is required and more importantly you must know his will after all a solder waits for the command from his captain before he acts right?

followjesus · Sep 8, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

Jesus has already been faithful is the thing though. He did His part. His part was not in any way limited to the lamb Who dies for Our sins, that is only the sacrificial part of the equation. His ministry is the Life of Gods children. His teachings and commandments, the Gospel. We all are to be Jesus Christs Disciples, that means we are those who follow and practice His ways. thats what Christians are. who they are and what makes us children of God. the forgiveness of the " cross" is that, its forgiveness for Our sinful lives.

through the resurrection However you then Get into the Holy spirit which comes to those disciples noted above those who Learn from and practice in the teachings of Jesus Christ. those who Have Faith in the Teacher and His Word if He is Faithful, so is His word. , those with Faith enough to hear the shepherd and follow they are the sheep. those who give thier Hearts to God because of "the events of the cross" the finished works people talk about are so much more that gets ignored. according to the gospel. His disciples are new creations, we are to literally be the righteousness of Jesus in the world, because we act in the things He taught us. this is what He taught Himself that those who act in His teachings and principles will be blessed, and those who call Him Lord and do not abide in His word, those will not receive the blessing.

the only thing that has changed is us, Not God. according to His word we're not who we were, we are no longer our own.... we were bought at a price"

he laid Himself down in more ways than Just the cross. His doctrine itself, is about laying down Our selfishness and acting in the Love of God to Others. the greatest Love, the Love of God is to learn from Jesus, and take His doctrine as the word of God for How to act and Live in this world while we wait For the return Of the Same Jesus Christ who will bring an end to this world, and bring in the new Heavens and new earth. the gospel that paul taught was much more than Jesus dying for the forgiveness of sin, He too taught those How to act and Live in the principles of Jesus Love...the gospel.

2 corinthians 5 "For the love of Christ constraineth us; ( compels, drives us) because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: <<( same thing paul is saying in romans 6) 15And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again. ( the purpose of Him dying for us that we live for Him from the heart compelled by His Love for us shown on the cross)

16Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. <<< (consistantly a theme of Pauls letters)

18And all things areof God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; 19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. ( the word of forgiveness through Christ)
20Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

its all about re generation, new people made through Gods Mercy given to us in the sacrifice of Jesus for us. that though, is meant to create New people who live new Lives, rid themselves of Old ways and walk in the ways of Gods Children. thats the point of us being called His children were disciples of His Only begotten Son. we cant claim to be free and captive to sin at the same time. theres more to Jesus than His death mush more, and its all relevant and important

Dino246 · Sep 8, 2017

Locutus said:

Here is a selection of verses from the KJV with the phrase, "your faith"...

Matthew 9:29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.

Romans 1:8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

1 Corinthians 2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

1 Corinthians 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

Ephesians 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,

Colossians 1:4 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints,

Colossians 2:5 For though I be absent in the flesh, yet am I with you in the spirit, joying and beholding your order, and the stedfastness of your faith in Christ.

1 Thessalonians 3:2 And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:

1 Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

1 Thessalonians 3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?

2 Thessalonians 1:3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;

James 1:3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
And, for me this is the clincher...

1 Peter 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

So the KJV testifies also that it is "your faith" that results in salvation as well as other blessings. It is not exclusively the faith "of Christ" but also faith "in Christ".

I offer this back to John146 for comment specifically on 1 Peter 1:9.

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 8, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

"But blessed are those who trust in the LORD and have made the LORD their hope and confidence. Jer. 17:7 NLT

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 8, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

Jeremiah 17:5 New Living Translation (NLT)

Wisdom from the Lord

[SUP]5 [/SUP]This is what the Lord says:
“Cursed are those who put their trust in mere humans,
who rely on human strength
and turn their hearts away from the Lord.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 9, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

Jesus is no longer on the cross

His blood speaks of our forgiveness from the altar in heaven

yes, there is an altar in heaven and Christ's blood is on it. that is where the blood was applied for forgiveness of sins...not the cross

the object of our faith is NOT the cross. that, would actually be Jesus. the cross was a piece of wood.

let's not make an idol out of the cross. it was a means to an end and symbolizes death. I could say alot about it, because it is a metaphor for putting ourselves to death...seeking God's will, not ours...as baptism symbolizes death and resurrection as well

the cross saves no one at all. it's a picture of death

MessageOfTheCross · Sep 9, 2017

For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent (1 Corinthians 1:18-19 KJV).

Faith in Christ (Who He is) and what He has done (at Calvary Cross) is the only Faith God will accept.

Rosemaryx · Sep 9, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

FAITH IN GOD by Donnie Swaggart

Mark 11:22-24 — “And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God. For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith. Therefore I say unto you, What things soever you desire, when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them.”

In Romans 12:3 the apostle Paul said, “As God has dealt to every man the measure of faith.” This means at the moment of conversion every believer is given or granted a measure of faith; however, the believer is to allow that faith to grow beyond just a measure.

Now the question must be asked, how does one’s measure of faith grow and mature? There are several variables to that question that every believer must know and understand. They are:

1. For faith to mature, the believer must have a proper understanding of the atonement, what Christ accomplished on Calvary’s Cross. Our faith, our focus must ever be placed in Christ and Him crucified. Let me break it down this way:

• Jesus Christ is the source of all things that
we receive from God (Jn. 14:6; Col. 2:10)

• The Cross of Christ is the means and, in fact,
the only means by which these things are given
to us (Rom. 6:3-5; I Cor. 2:2)

• The Cross of Christ, and the Cross of Christ
alone, must be the object of our faith in order
for us to receive what has been given (I Cor.
1:17, 23; Gal. 6:14).

• The Holy Spirit, who works exclusively within
the parameters of the finished work of Christ,
oversees all of this (Rom. 8:1-2, 11; Eph.
2:13-18).

All error in the church begins with a faulty understanding of Calvary; hence one’s personal faith cannot mature as it should without proper knowledge of Calvary.

2. Next, one must know the will of God, which can only be learned by the Word of God. “Faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God” (Rom. 10:17).

3. Then comes fellowship and relationship with the Lord through prayer and Bible study, which help strengthen and develop our faith.

4. Finally faith has to be tested. The Lord will allow trials and tribulations to come our way in order to teach us faith and trust in the Lord.

The believer must also know that every attack by Satan against us is really an attack against our faith. Will we put our trust in the Lord, man, or self?

Thank you for this...I am just about to start reading Ephesians as I have been walking with the Lord for 22 months now and have come to know for sure how God has called me to His Son, I am saved through Gods calling alone, He has given me my faith and now Ii feel He is telling me to go forward and learn who I am in Christ...Everything you described above is where I am at now, your explanation is simple to understand, thank you once again...xox...

7seasrekeyed · Sep 9, 2017

MessageOfTheCross said:

what Paul was preaching, was that Christ died for our sins

the cross was only the instrument upon which God achieved His intended way of salvation

what men despised, the cross as a symbol of shame, exposure and a cursed person, God chose as the way of redemption

it is misleading to state the cross itself had some kind of special signifigance

do you put your faith in Jesus on the crosss or Jesus resurrected?

not sure you will see the difference

this was actually the plan of the Father...it might do good to remember Jesus did not want to go to that death and prayed if there was any other way

God the Father chose this death for redemption and Jesus submitted to His will

7seasrekeyed · Sep 9, 2017

the message of the cross is death if you want to look at the cross

funny thing though, the tomb displayed life because it was empty

Paul was preaching God's power through the cross.

it's a big subject and donnie doesn't get it either.

dcontroversal · Sep 9, 2017

I cannot imagine how many will deny that Paul said that if he was going to glory, he would glory in the cross of Christ.....Paul who wrote almost half of the N.T. must have made a mistake when he wrote that.....according to some things written by some......!

BenFTW · Sep 9, 2017

This question came to mind as I was reading this verse recently.

[h=1]Acts 3:16 King James Version (KJV)[/h][FONT=&quot]16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Its in reference to healing, and the use of the name of Jesus. That His name carries with it the power or rather, authority to heal. Hence why Peter could say to the lame man at the gate named Beautiful, that he gives him what he has (not silver or gold) and uses the name of Jesus to heal him. Healing then is in some form or another is part of the atonement, how else does an apostle bring healing in authority based upon the name of Jesus? The name of Jesus is all that is encompassed within His ministry and work.

We see that it is His name that brings the healing, and yet our faith in His name, a faith which is by him. I suppose it might be said a faith that is through Him, meaning because of His obedience to the will of the Father, we have such a faith (something to have faith in). At least that might be one way to interpret it.

[/FONT]

seed_time_harvest · Sep 9, 2017

Locutus said:

Yes,no man could be righteous In their own will-power strength,so then GOD made a way for man,providing a sacrifice atoning for mans sin and now men could die to the law and join Grace,since sin was paid for,faith In the WORD of GOD Is now the Issue,and a person will not want to commit sin once GOD makes the Spirit perfect when the person Is In the process of renewing their mind.

7seasrekeyed · Sep 9, 2017

dcontroversal said:

oh you can imagine plenty

the message of the cross is directly referencing a program by Jimmy Swaggart that goes by the same name

Paul was referencing, once again, God's plan of salvation

Jesus is no longer on the cross

maybe you should stop imagining

Whose Faith? Ours or Jesus'?

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