Whta is the Gospel!

[VW]

I would not consider speaking in tongues to be a sign of salvation. The only true proof of salvation is the Spirit. God only gives this gift to His children.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

everyone speaks a tongue.. tongue just means language. Gibberish however has nothing to do with the tongues mentioned in the bible.. and the gift of tongues or languages back then was to spread the word to the countries quick..
In the Book of Acts, there is no evidence of this being the reason for the Pentecostal event.. Paul says very clearly to not forbid this experience.
no need for that these days we have seomething called technology and everyone has had the chance to hear the gospel that is meant to and has had for centuries.

better to speak 5 understandable words than 5000 gibberish words.
While the vast majority of ministry doesn't involve glossalia, it is certainly arrogant to refer to a Biblical and God-given event as gibberish.

it sill amazes me how gentiles still think half of the stuff even had anything to do with them then let alone now.

Peter stood before the Jerusalem council and said, if God has given them the same gift (referring to the centurion receiving the Pentecostal experience) how can we not recognize that salvation has also come to the Gentiles. If you are not able to find the reference, I can provide it for you.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Personally I do not believe that you need to be baptized in the Spirit, what I mean is once you are born again you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you, you don't need to be baptized to get the Spirit, of course unless you lost him while shopping or out playing golf.

as I said in another post I am not a cessationist, but, nowhere can I be convinced in Scripture that this needs to happen to us once the the gentiles had full inclusion. Paul nowhere says that this is a sign of being born again, and in fact when Paul actually talks about the gifts of the Holy Spirit, he plainly says that each person has a different gift... so where does that leave you when all are babbling in some gibberish? have you got an interpreter for each and every person in your church. so if you have 100 wailing in tongues have you got 100 people listening and then interpreting so that this gift edifies the and uplifts the church? I could easily guess the answer will be a resounding NO!

so this is plainly not the Gospel is it?

Phil

You have an odd idea of what happens in a Pentecostal church. Order and the move of the Holy Spirit are not at odds with one another.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Personally I do not believe that you need to be baptized in the Spirit, what I mean is once you are born again you have the Holy Spirit indwelling you, you don't need to be baptized to get the Spirit, of course unless you lost him while shopping or out playing golf.

The disciples were told to wait for Pentecost after they had already been born again by faith in Christ. Unless you want to argue that they weren't born again until they experienced Pentecost!...but if you believe that it would conflict with your views on unregenerated people not being able to follow Christ lol.

That there are two experiences of the Spirit - an inward changing (regeneration) and an outpouring (receiving power from on high)... are pretty clear in scripture even in the old testament. If you haven't had the second experience you're missing power and spiritual gifts which God wants you to use for the edification of the church. Mine are tongues, prophecy and healing.

so where does that leave you when all are babbling in some gibberish? have you got an interpreter for each and every person in your church. so if you have 100 wailing in tongues have you got 100 people listening and then interpreting so that this gift edifies the and uplifts the church? I could easily guess the answer will be a resounding NO!

Regarding order, I would imagine that first experience of speaking in tongues in a public way at pentecost was a rather noisy and confusing and disorderly occasion. The bible says tongues is praying to God, God understands it. So it is like 100 people praying to God at once and also edifying themselves. The only time an interpreter is needed is if the use of tongues is for the purpose of edifying others and delivering prophetic messages to the church.

 

[pickles]

Like I said. The Gift of tongues, and praying in tongues are different. Was everyone on the day of pentecost who were speaking in tongues prophecying? Was there an interpreter for all three thousand souls? No. So were they not of God?

I agree, there are different perposes and different gifts of tongues.
I have been present many times when several prayed in tongues. It was the most beautiful musical sound of praise that I ever heard. Yes there were interpiters present. But these praised in tongues, once heard ,you know all is praise of God.
Scripture does support the prayer in tongues!
God bless, pickles

 

[pickles]

Pickles
Although I agree that all should seek to know the bible and its teachings, this does not make one saved.
Just as you said that many know Jesus but are not saved , this also applies to the word.
Many know and understand the bible very well yet they will not gain salvation.
So if it is not being saved, not about knowladge and understanding then what do you say brings one salvation?
Im curious as to your answer.
God bless, pickles
Totally agree with all you said.
Pickles I give the same answer I have all along on here,
Salvation can only come through ones faith. That faith of course cannot be like most of ‘chrsitendom’ which is blind faith.
That faith is believing as Abraham did. (faith of Abraham), the faith in knowing the true gospel
Knowledge is essential, one cannot have faith in something they don’t understand. They have to totally know what it is they have faith in. There is no mystery involved in faith as many claim
So the simple quick answer without all the details of what goes into ‘gospel and what it is etc’
Is KNOWLEDGE TO UNDERSTAND THE GOSPEL AND FAITH IN BELIEVING IN THAT
cheers

I wanted to ask this because of my concern for you.
I see a good want of truth in scriptures in you, I respect this and see your faith . But you came to this site and started to critisize the walks of many here and elsewhere.
Now you may say that you are called to do this because scripture speaks to this, but I do not see this in your words. I see only one that stomps on others.
I do not know if this is your intention, but this is how you come across.
You say there should be no such thing as blind faith, but to know and follow Jesus ,blind faith is as important as the scriptures. Blind comes before faith, we are blind before we believe, once we believe Jesus is the light in which we are able to see.
Jesus also said we must be like little children if we want to enter the kingdom of heaven.
Children believe without seeing.
Just as you believe you carry the truth , many here also carry the truth in Jesus.
I only speak, to say, that to witness to what you have learned in the word is good, but to call all others faith wrong simply because of your knowlage, is to stomp on those you have not even taken the time to hear or know. There are alot of catch phrases in the christian community, understand the different language culltures. Also where each ones faith in Jesus may be. Then give all the benefit of time before you crush them.
Jesus is the witness of what we strive for in Him.

Mathew 12:18'' Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
my loved one in whome I delight.
I will endow him with my spirit
and he will proclaim justice to the gentiles.
19 He will not contend or cry out,
nor will his voice be heard in the streets.
20 The bruised reed he will not crush;
the smoldering wick he will not quench
untill judgement is made victorious.
21 In his name, the gentiles will find hope.''

We all are called to witness, you might consider that Jesus has something for you to learn as well,
before you crush others with your knowlage.
There is more to the scriptures than just knowladge, there is a great understanding that is given in Jesus. I and others here will witness to this.
You would be heard a bit more, if you listened a bit more yourself.
I know, been there myself.
Remember the great comandment, to love God with all your mind, heart,soul, and streangth!
And your neighbor as yourself!
Seems to me it involves more than just the mind.
Thankyou for reading this.
God bless, pickles

 

[phil36]

The disciples were told to wait for Pentecost after they had already been born again by faith in Christ. Unless you want to argue that they weren't born again until they experienced Pentecost!...but if you believe that it would conflict with your views on unregenerated people not being able to follow Christ lol. I don't believe in a second outpourng of the Holy Spirit. I think the flaw with the pentecostal theology of the Spirit is the fact, Jesus would send the Spirit when he left.. Pentecostals don't seem to see this. That this was something totally new, Jesus was with the disciples in person, when he went away!!! he would send the Holy Spirit. not that they had the Spirit indwelling them already as they had Christ sitting in person right beside them, but when he went back to be with the Father he would not leave them on their own, He would then send the Spirit. and this He done.

That there are two experiences of the Spirit - an inward changing (regeneration) and an outpouring (receiving power from on high)... are pretty clear in scripture even in the old testament. If you haven't had the second experience you're missing power and spiritual gifts which God wants you to use for the edification of the church. Mine are tongues, prophecy and healing.

I haven't missed anything, you pentecostal beliefs make you think that wrongly. I don't believe in a second outpouring there is no scriptural evidence of this, and if you try and use the first couple of Chapters in Acts then you are totally missing what is going on!

Lets have a look at tongues and all those people who say there are different types.. can you interpret them? thats al I have to say. where in Scripture does it say there are different tongues for different liturgal styles and acts?


As for Healing,, All the healing that goes on seems to be of a secondary type, i.e, instant healing, Have you ever seen a man born blind receiving sight.. I have heard of a couple, never seen one, and Ive been to the usuall healing meetings.

Just to re-iterate, I am not a cessationist, but I am very careful, as most 'healers' tend to be charlatans. I don't say there is no more prophecy, but any idiot can read the bible and utter nonsense and say he's God's prophet infact there has been a few of them.

So I would like to know what is edifying to the body of Christ with a whole church babbling and rambling and no one knows whats being said..is that edifying and I cannot see it in Scripture!!!



Regarding order, I would imagine that first experience of speaking in tongues in a public way at pentecost was a rather noisy and confusing and disorderly occasion. I agree with you it certainly would have been, but if you are trying to use the first couple of chapters of acts to prove your point that all should sing in tongues worship in tongues, that is just pure nonsense, and you have missed the what is going on in Acts.


The bible says tongues is praying to God, God understands it. So it is like 100 people praying to God at once and also edifying themselves. The only time an interpreter is needed is if the use of tongues is for the purpose of edifying others and delivering prophetic messages to the church. I think you are clutching at straws to bolster your argument, you mean to tell me, a grouping of people rambling and babbling in a church are actually praying? I think you are trying to fuse, singing worship with prayer to strengthening what you are saying, but it is actually deception regarding the issue at hand

Hi Mahogony, I have answered you above in Blue.

None of this is biblical.

Phil

 

[phil36]

I agree, there are different perposes and different gifts of tongues.
I have been present many times when several prayed in tongues. It was the most beautiful musical sound of praise that I ever heard. Yes there were interpiters present. But these praised in tongues, once heard ,you know all is praise of God.
Scripture does support the prayer in tongues!
God bless, pickles

Hi Pickles.

Can you show me by Scripture, the different purposes of tongues? and Can you show explain the use of tongues after the first couple of Chapters in Acts, that have a definite purpose.

Thanks

Phil

 

[phil36]

Heres my fav tune the now.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zDMRz6pxEX8[/video]



YouTube - The Gospel Song- Sovereign Grace Music

 

[Consumed]

the gospel is the Good News of salvation by Gods love and love alone thru Jesus Christ..............
whether be pentecostal, RC, Anglican, methodist,Lutheran they all have their flaws, we are ripping apart Jesus pray when He prayed for unity, its one things the leaders of denominations have been doing for centuries, good to see the flame has carried on. Two disciples ran up to Jesus and said a man down the road who doesn't follow us is casting out demons in your name, Anyone read Jesus response to that, for it should be the same as ours. Its one thing to debate scripture, its another to use the word of God to justify not edifying His bride- the church- His people He has called to be lights a blazing on a hilltop. If we cant show the world unity, no wonder lost people don't see Jesus in us.

Scripture does say to encourage the brethren daily.

God is love - not logos scripture- rhema scripture when applied with love,respect and dignity, logos interpretations is what the Pharisees were good at, it was their actions Jesus took them to task with, mercy, justice and love be it the lack of. With love

 

[MahogonySnail]

I don't believe in a second outpourng of the Holy Spirit. I think the flaw with the pentecostal theology of the Spirit is the fact, Jesus would send the Spirit when he left.. Pentecostals don't seem to see this. That this was something totally new, Jesus was with the disciples in person, when he went away!!! he would send the Holy Spirit. not that they had the Spirit indwelling them already as they had Christ sitting in person right beside them, but when he went back to be with the Father he would not leave them on their own, He would then send the Spirit. and this He done.

I don't believe in a second outpouring of the Spirit. I believe in one outpouring, but two different experiences of the Spirit at difference occasions. I refer to outpouring to mean Pentecost. "I will pour our my Spirit" (prophet Joel). That's outpouring. You're confusing outpouring with indwelling and regeneration ( I will write their law on their heart,, and put a new spirit in them.....was that Jeremiah?) . Two different things.

not that they had the Spirit indwelling them already as they had Christ sitting in person right beside them

If they did not have the Spirit, then they were not born again, ie regenerated. You admit to a case where unregenerated men, were following Christ and had knowledge of the truth of spiritual matters! Now I can admit to this view, because I'm not bound by Calvinistic thoughts...but I'm curious...how do you reconcile this , with your view that unregenerated people cannot know truth or follow God? I would have thought you would have to believe that all the disciples who followed Christ had the Spirit dwelling in them. For without the Spirit, their eyes could not have been opened to God's truth.

Lets have a look at tongues and all those people who say there are different types.. can you interpret them? thats al I have to say. where in Scripture does it say there are different tongues for different liturgal styles and acts?

I'd be happy for you to interpret my tongues with the gift of interpretation you have if you wish. One prays, another interprets. That's how it works.

Just to re-iterate, I am not a cessationist, but I am very careful, as most 'healers' tend to be charlatans. I don't say there is no more prophecy, but any idiot can read the bible and utter nonsense and say he's God's prophet infact there has been a few of them.

So I would like to know what is edifying to the body of Christ with a whole church babbling and rambling and no one knows whats being said..is that edifying and I cannot see it in Scripture!!!

Maybe it is edifying to them who do it. Put it this way..if it wasn't edifying, then WHY WOULD THEY DO IT?

No one needs to know what's being said because everyone is doing what they did in Acts 2:4.
The important thing is that God knows what is being said. It's prayer to God.

Here's a verse that shows it is prayer to God:

1Co 14:2 For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. For no one hears, but in spirit he speaks mysteries.


Anyway Phil do you have prophecy in your church?

The bible says tongues is praying to God, God understands it. So it is like 100 people praying to God at once and also edifying themselves. The only time an interpreter is needed is if the use of tongues is for the purpose of edifying others and delivering prophetic messages to the church. I think you are clutching at straws to bolster your argument, you mean to tell me, a grouping of people rambling and babbling in a church are actually praying? I think you are trying to fuse, singing worship with prayer to strengthening what you are saying, but it is actually deception regarding the issue at hand

What's the difference between everyone praying in tongues...and everyone singing out of tune to words of a song they can't sing, or words too difficult to understand?

 

[Consumed]

tongues id for the edifying of ones own soul, not without interpretation if spoken out aloud, no interpreter, no speaking of toungues in gatherings, thats how i read it by pauls directive, whatever the tongues paul was speaking about is left for each to make their own determination, i choose not to get into that that, however Paul said and boasted he spoke more in tongues than anyone. lol

 

[MahogonySnail]

If 100 people in a church are each being edified by speaking in tongues then that is the church being edified! WE are the church.

 

[Consumed]

i hear what you are saying i was just going by what paul wrote down as doctrine interpretated by him lol

 

[MahogonySnail]

Phil, does your church obey this instruction by Paul, in the same chapter:

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says.


If not you have no right to be judging other churches for speaking in tongues all at once, if yours doesn't keep the women silent...then according to Paul your church is also disorderly!!

 

[phil36]

If 100 people in a church are each being edified by speaking in tongues then that is the church being edified! WE are the church.

I see a huge flaw in your statement, no where in the bible does it say individual... I think this statement seems to fit with your anti Church sentiments.

Anyhow it is pointless debating for you cannot show any evidence.. all you have shown is opinions

Phil

 

[phil36]

Phil, does your church obey this instruction by Paul, in the same chapter:

1Co 14:34 Let your women be silent in the churches; for it is not permitted to them to speak, but to be in subjection, as the Law also says.


If not you have no right to be judging other churches for speaking in tongues all at once, if yours doesn't keep the women silent...then according to Paul your church is also disorderly!!

Ahh so it's ok for you to say anything you want about others beliefs or churches.. as you certainly have done, but not ok for anyone else.

Secondly that verse has got nothing to do with Talking in tongues.. Have you yet answered any of my questions regarding the inclusion of Gentiles..NO

Have you answered my statements about Christ going away and Him sending the Spirit..NO

Why not?



Thirdly you still cant show any of this in the later epistles... there is a good reason for this

Phil

 

[MahogonySnail]

Ahh so it's ok for you to say anything you want about others beliefs or churches.. as you certainly have done, but not ok for anyone else.

If I'm judging one church based on one standard but my own church falls short in another, then by all means I am a hypocrite as well.

Secondly that verse has got nothing to do with Talking in tongues..

Same Chapter. Paul puts his finger on a few things that come under disorderly conduct. Not just tongues.

 

[MahogonySnail]

Thirdly you still cant show any of this in the later epistles... there is a good reason for this

Please explain this good reason? Or are you presuming to know why the author did or did not choose to write what he did?

 

[charisenexcelcis]

Paul instructed us to not forbid the glossolia. He said that he experienced more than any other. There are different attitudes toward the experience, but unless we want to reject the teaching of Paul we must come to terms with the Pentecostal experience being present in the church. The Pentecostal/Charismatic movement is now the second largest Christian tradition in the church, second only to the Roman Catholic Church. Charismatics are present in virtually every denomination in christiandom. We are not crazy, we are not heretics, and we are almost the only branch of christianity that is growing, and that in vast numbers.