Why Are Faith, Works and Salvation So Hard to Agree Upon?

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Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,327
711
113
#1
It’s easy. You can’t enter the presence of the Almighty sinful. If you desire to enter, to serve Him as Master/Lord, than you need your sin and guilt reconciled. Blood is the payment. Since the blood of the Lamb is Holy it is a sufficient sacrifice for all. If you do not believe Yeshua was Christ Son of the Most High, then He is just another man and His blood insufficient. This is why faith in Christ is needed for the removal of sins. You seek a pure heart so you may be grafted into the Vine to become part of the Body. The Body is not idle. It has function. So faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins (step 1). Desire to serve the Master and be unified in Christ, hence works (step 2). You can’t be saved without faith but it is for the purpose of works.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,773
444
83
#2
It’s easy. You can’t enter the presence of the Almighty sinful. If you desire to enter, to serve Him as Master/Lord, than you need your sin and guilt reconciled. Blood is the payment. Since the blood of the Lamb is Holy it is a sufficient sacrifice for all. If you do not believe Yeshua was Christ Son of the Most High, then He is just another man and His blood insufficient. This is why faith in Christ is needed for the removal of sins. You seek a pure heart so you may be grafted into the Vine to become part of the Body. The Body is not idle. It has function. So faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins (step 1). Desire to serve the Master and be unified in Christ, hence works (step 2). You can’t be saved without faith but it is for the purpose of works.
You cannot have spiritual faith unless you have already been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The natural man does not have spiritual faith, 1 Cor 2:14, until he is born again, by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man. Eph 2.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,327
711
113
#3
You misquoted your first reference and completely agreed with me the second. If you keep reading Ephesians 2 it clearly reads saved by faith for the purpose to do good works. I guess that settles it. Thanks
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,387
1,563
113
#4
You cannot have spiritual faith unless you have already been born again with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. The natural man does not have spiritual faith, 1 Cor 2:14, until he is born again, by God's sovereign grace, without the help of man. Eph 2.
Total depravity?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,547
705
113
#5
It’s easy. You can’t enter the presence of the Almighty sinful. If you desire to enter, to serve Him as Master/Lord, than you need your sin and guilt reconciled. Blood is the payment. Since the blood of the Lamb is Holy it is a sufficient sacrifice for all. If you do not believe Yeshua was Christ Son of the Most High, then He is just another man and His blood insufficient. This is why faith in Christ is needed for the removal of sins. You seek a pure heart so you may be grafted into the Vine to become part of the Body. The Body is not idle. It has function. So faith in Christ for forgiveness of sins (step 1). Desire to serve the Master and be unified in Christ, hence works (step 2). You can’t be saved without faith but it is for the purpose of works.
How do you graft yourself in while already grafted into a wild vine?
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,327
711
113
#6
I didn’t even realize “total depravity” was such a common belief. It seems counterintuitive. If you know right from wrong you always have the choice which to pick. Even non-Christians can choose right from wrong. They can do it out of wisdom or fear (of consequence or rejection). So to does everyone face a path to live for self, or live for God. It just seems obvious that the gate for the path to God, is faith in Christ. It’s the starting point, not the destination.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,387
1,563
113
#7
I didn’t even realize “total depravity” was such a common belief. It seems counterintuitive. If you know right from wrong you always have the choice which to pick. Even non-Christians can choose right from wrong. They can do it out of wisdom or fear (of consequence or rejection). So to does everyone face a path to live for self, or live for God. It just seems obvious that the gate for the path to God, is faith in Christ. It’s the starting point, not the destination.
Even the Bible says that the gentiles have a law unto themselves. We call that the moral law.

It is a philosophy built around the words, predestined or elect. Instead of harmony, every scripture has to fit the interpretation they have given to those words.

This ultimately eliminates choice, free will, or any invitation to all who would believe.

I believe it is all within the foreknowledge of God. Who the elect would be and predestined through God's redemption plan that was destined before time.

But yes there are many Calvinist, Lutheran, Augustin calvinist on this site. 5 point calvinist or I have met some who only hold 1 point. I still see them as brothers and sisters in Christ but disagree on their conclusion.

With out choice all you are left with is God chose most to go to Hell because scripture says the road to destruction is wide and many enter through it. While God elects a few to save.
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
2,475
478
83
#8
We are saved by faith alone, and not by works.

For when we first confess Christ we have not received the Spirit yet, so we are in the flesh, so it can only be by faith alone, and none of our works can save us.

Nobody receives the Spirit before they confess Christ, but it is after we confess Christ, and repent of our sins that we receive the Spirit.

So we are in the flesh when we first confess Christ, so we can only be saved by faith alone, and not by works.

But when we receive the Spirit then the responsibility falls on us to want to be Christlike, and we have to make that choice to be Christlike, for the Spirit will not twist our arm to do right, but will guide us.

And the Bible says a Spirit led life will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh, for they have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts, and show the ways of the Spirit and not the flesh.

And God will not allow them to be tempted above what they are able to handle, and will give them an escape from the temptation so they can bear it, so they are not tempted as hard as the world.

So there is no excuse why a saint cannot abstain from sin, and if there is no excuse then it is required.

For God is not going to say you have salvation when you held unto sin when by the Spirit you can abstain from sin.

Which is why Jesus said the people that could not dwell with Him were workers of iniquity.

Which they have a form of godliness, but deny the Spirit leading them, and hold unto sin and believe they have salvation having an excuse, and ever learning, and never able to come to the truth, which the Bible says turn away from them for their hypocrisy gives blame to the ministry.

Which if we sin wilfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth there is no more sacrifice, which if we hold unto sin after we know God hates sin then the blood of Jesus cannot wash it away.

Which the Lord knows them that are His having this seal, that everyone that names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

And awake to righteousness, and sin not, but some do not have the knowledge of God.

If a person sins they should have the right attitude that sin separates them from God, and repent of it, and get rid of it, and be sincere, and move forward in the Spirit.

Which Jesus said any person having put their hand to the plow looking back is not fit for the kingdom of God.

Remember Lot's wife.

Paul said that out of faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest.

And faith works by love.

Love is greater than faith, and faith works by love.

It is not faith alone, but love alone, which we can do perfectly by the Spirit.

No love, no faith.

Which Paul said love does not think an evil thought, and does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth to abstain from sin by the Spirit.

Which Paul said he keeps under his body keeping the body in control to be Christlike, for if he did not he would be a castaway.

Paul said he could have all faith so that he could remove mountains, but if he did not have charity he is nothing.

And if they do not have charity they have erred from the faith.

James said if they do not have charity then their faith is dead, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

John said if they do not have charity then the love of God does not dwell in them, so do not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed, works, and in truth.

We are saved by faith alone, and not by works when we first confess Christ.

When we receive the Spirit love is greater than faith, and has to be done in works, and a person is justified by works and not faith alone.

But there is millions of people that hold unto sin, and love money, and material things, prosperity gospel, neglecting the poor and needy, and then think faith will save them.

But that is not love, and love is greater than faith.

Faith and hope are not needed in heaven, but love will go on forever.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,387
1,563
113
#9
How do you graft yourself in while already grafted into a wild vine?
Romans 11:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Key words if they do not persist in unbelief

John 15:6 New International
Version (NIV)

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Strange warning to say if you do not remain in me. Sounds like there is a alternative?
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,547
705
113
#10
Romans 11:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

Key words if they do not persist in unbelief

John 15:6 New International
Version (NIV)

6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Strange warning to say if you do not remain in me. Sounds like there is a alternative?
But faith is not from us. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Notice it says God will graft them in again. Not they themselves.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,387
1,563
113
#11
But faith is not from us. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit. Notice it says God will graft them in again. Not they themselves.
The sentence above literally has a condition. How do you ignore that? If they do not persist in unbelief.
But yes God is faithful. His grace is open even to those who turn away. But as long as they remain in unbelief it is impossible for them. They must return like the prodigal son did.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
20,196
8,774
113
54
#12
We are saved FOR good works and NOT BY good works. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Faith is the root of salvation and good works are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,547
705
113
#13
The sentence above literally has a condition. How do you ignore that? If they do not persist in unbelief.
But yes God is faithful. His grace is open even to those who turn away. But as long as they remain in unbelief it is impossible for them. They must return like the prodigal son did.
This understanding of obedience turns the fruit of the Holy Spirit into works of the flesh. Try to catch it as it comes up. Faith and repentance are the fruit of the Spirit.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
4,387
1,563
113
#14
This understanding of obedience turns the fruit of the Holy Spirit into works of the flesh. Try to catch it as it comes up. Faith and repentance are the fruit of the Spirit.
Not understanding. It is what the scripture says. We have came to this stalemate before. Human belief or human faith isn't the same word in Greek as spiritual faith. They both are at work in a believer.

But you wont respond to that.
 

DorothyMae

Active member
May 23, 2020
291
97
28
#15
I think the faith and works matter is difficult because of a few reasons and none of them good.

1. People’s faith is weak and so they think they can hedge their bets with works they think of doing (wood, hay, stubble.) What they don’t do is surrender their lives to God so that their faith grows to the point where it is seen in their choices, what can be called works although to the obedient heart, it doesn’t seem like works.

2. People don’t want to surrender but don’t want to go to hell either so they remove any claim God has on their actual behavior by embracing a theology that makes obeying either an optional
extra related only to heavenly rewards or even “an insult to free grace.”

To those who have surrendered their lives to Him, there is no separation. This is because faith in God and deep relationship with Him is dependent upon keeping his teachings to you. “If you keep my teaching the Father will love you and we will come and make our dwelling in you.”
 

Dave-L

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2020
4,547
705
113
#16
Not understanding. It is what the scripture says. We have came to this stalemate before. Human belief or human faith isn't the same word in Greek as spiritual faith. They both are at work in a believer.

But you wont respond to that.
Paul says, “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.” 1 Corinthians 2:14 (KJV 1900)

“For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.” 1 Corinthians 2:11–12 (KJV 1900)

“But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.” 2 Corinthians 4:3–4 (KJV 1900)
 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,180
2,394
113
#17
Faith works and salvation is hard to agree upon because 2 of them come from God and one of them comes from people.

The one that comes from people is highly subjective. How come one person has great works (according to people) and another does not (according to people)?

What is the greatest work? What is the one work that ensures entrance into heaven?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,773
444
83
#18
I didn’t even realize “total depravity” was such a common belief. It seems counterintuitive. If you know right from wrong you always have the choice which to pick. Even non-Christians can choose right from wrong. They can do it out of wisdom or fear (of consequence or rejection). So to does everyone face a path to live for self, or live for God. It just seems obvious that the gate for the path to God, is faith in Christ. It’s the starting point, not the destination.
The second chapter of Eph 2 fully explains that the natural man only has faith in man, until he is born again of the Spirit, Ezk 36:26-27. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. You can't have the fruit unless you have the tree that bears the fruit first.
 

Hungry

Senior Member
Nov 26, 2012
2,327
711
113
#19
The second chapter of Eph 2 fully explains that the natural man only has faith in man, until he is born again of the Spirit, Ezk 36:26-27. Spiritual faith is a fruit of the Spirit, Gal 5:22. You can't have the fruit unless you have the tree that bears the fruit first.
So you are promoting election?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
3,773
444
83
#20
Even the Bible says that the gentiles have a law unto themselves. We call that the moral law.

It is a philosophy built around the words, predestined or elect. Instead of harmony, every scripture has to fit the interpretation they have given to those words.

This ultimately eliminates choice, free will, or any invitation to all who would believe.

I believe it is all within the foreknowledge of God. Who the elect would be and predestined through God's redemption plan that was destined before time.

But yes there are many Calvinist, Lutheran, Augustin calvinist on this site. 5 point calvinist or I have met some who only hold 1 point. I still see them as brothers and sisters in Christ but disagree on their conclusion.

With out choice all you are left with is God chose most to go to Hell because scripture says the road to destruction is wide and many enter through it. While God elects a few to save.
I disagree with your interpretation of Matt 7:13-14. There will be far more populating heaven than hell. Those that go into the wide gate and broad way are born again, bebes in Christ, who are ignorant of God's righteousness, and are going about to establish their own righteousness by their good works, and are not submitting themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Jacob/Israel (God changed Jacob's name to be called Israel, Gen 33:28) is God's sheep. Jesus instructed his Apostles to go and preach the gospel to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, Matt 10:6.

The scriptures teach us that those that will populate heaven are numbered as the stars in heaven and the grains of sand in the seashore. That will not harmonize with the straight gate and narrow way of Matt 7:14. Those few that find it, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, are those children of God that have matured in the knowledge of the doctrine of Jesus Christ, Isaiah 28:9.