Why did G-d give us the Torah?

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J

Jezreel

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#21
I praise and thank Jesus that we can glorify and say his name! Every knee shall bow and every tongue will confess that he is Lord. So, if people do not want to use the name of God now, they will have to when God comes with his holy angles. He who is not ashamed of me and of the words I speak, I will not be ashamed of him when I come in my kingdom with my holy angels with power and great glory. The Old Covenant is a type of shadow of things that Christ fulfilled in the New Covenant. The Jews (religeous leaders) were blinded and did not see the fulfilling of the scriptures of Jesus being the Messiah because God blinded their eyes because their hearts were hard. Just like the Pharoah of Egypt, when he would not let the children of Israel go because his heart was hard, God hardened it more. It was the same with the religeous elite when Christ came. God also blinded them so that the gentiles could be grafted in. Now, it seems that all the false religeon that was birthed by the Roman Catholic church and her daughters, the gentiles who remain in league with the mystery of iniquity and the pagan Roman Catholic Rome, their eyes are being blinded and God is turning back and using his plans to graft Israel back in. Being wise in our own conceits makes our hearts hard and God will just harden the hearts more.
Christ, the rock, followed the children of Israel in the wilderness and he gave Moses the law on Sinai. The law condemns all of us and let us know that we need a sacrifice for sin. If any man sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth there remains NO more sacrifice for sin. Christ was God's perfect sacrifice, the first born son and the lamb without spot and without blemish, the firstfruit of the womb shall be made holy unto the Lord. Jesus Christ is and was the tithe of God, God's best.
The law is good if a man uses it lawfully. There are parts of the law that are very good that we can practice, but, we are not justified by the works of the law anymore. I am sure also that Jesus and the apostles had to preach from the old testament also because there were not bibles at that time. There are also the promises to the twelve tribes of Israel. Jacob, before he died, he laid his hand upon his twelve sons and blessed them. These blessings have still to mannifest and come to pass.
 
Apr 23, 2009
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#22
No offense taken.

It's a combination of two things. One is that we are not to use lightly the Name of G-d (Exo 20).
But the name of God is not God, it was Jehovah at the time that Exodus 20 was written, and now we call Him Jesus.

We know that "G-d" is not His Name. Nonetheless, since we do captialize it, to refer to the One True G-d, I prefer to treat it with reverence, all the same
Since you realize it is not His name, then you can see why I do not find it irreverent to to use to o. Beside we are not to take His name in vain that doesn't mean we cannot type out the o in God.
 
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Apr 23, 2009
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#23
Leo has a list? lol, I forgot about the list. Hmm. I think I have the list saved somewhere...

Wait, so Paul gives a reason for why God gave us the Torah?
According to Christianity, Paul's reason is that G-d gave it to us to show us how much of a big, depraved failure we are.
Actually according to Paul God gave us the Torah to point us toward Christ, Which is exactly what Jesus Himself said as well.
 
Sep 29, 2009
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#24
Well, if we shouldn't follow Torah, and it pointed toward Christ, then what is the purpose now that He has come? What is the purpose for it NOW?
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#25
Well, if we shouldn't follow Torah, and it pointed toward Christ, then what is the purpose now that He has come? What is the purpose for it NOW?
Well the purpose Jesus came was.............

1. Jesus Christ came into the world to save sinners. I Timothy 1:15. "This is a faithful saying, and
worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."
2. Jesus Christ came into the world to call sinners to repentance. Mark 2:17 "Jesus...saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."
3. Jesus Christ came into the world to seek and save the lost. Luke 19:10 "For the Son of man is come to seek and to save that which was lost."
4. Jesus came into the world to demonstrate the true purpose of life and give Himself a ransom. Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give His life a ransom for many."
5. Jesus Christ came into the world to be a King and bear witness to the truth. John 18:37 "Pilate
therefore said unto Him, Art thou a king? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end
was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth.
Everyone that is of the truth heareth My voice."
6. Jesus Christ came into the world to do the Will of His Father. John 6:38 "For I came down from
heaven, not to do MIne own will, but the will of Him that sent Me."
7. Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Light in the world. John 12:46 "I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on Me should not abide in darkness."
8. Jesus Christ came into the world that men might have the Abundant Life. John 10:10 "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly."
9. Jesus Christ came into the world to Judge the world. John 9:39 "And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind."
10. Jesus Christ came into the world to Proclaim or preach the Good News about the Kingdom of God. Mark 1:38 "And He said unto them, Let us go into the next towns, that I may preach there also; for therefore came I forth."
11. Jesus Christ came into the world to die on the cross. John 12:27 "Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father save Me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour."
12. Jesus Christ came into the world to fulfill the law. Matthew 5:17 "Think not that I came to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill."
13. Jesus Christ came into the world to be a Divider of men. Matthew 10:34-35 "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law." [Christ makes it necessary to choose between relatives and the truth. This choice often causes a division].
14. Jesus Christ came into the world because the Father sent Him. John 20:21 "As My Father hath sent Me, even so send I you."
A. The Father SENT Jesus to be the Propitiation (atone-ment) for our sins. I John 4:10 "Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
B. The Father SENT Jesus and gave Jesus as the Saviour of the world. John 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that rather the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
C. The Father SENT Jesus to bless us by turning us from our iniquities. Acts 3:26 "Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities."
D. God SENT His Son, to redeem us from the curse of the law. Galations 4:4-5 "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth His Son, made of a woman, made under the law, To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
E. God SENT His Son to make possible a new power in the hearts of men, a power to enable him to fulfill the righteousness of the law. Romans 8:3-4 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the spirit."
15. Jesus Christ came into the world as a demonstration of God's love. I John 4:10 "Herein is love, not that we God, but that He us, and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins."
Quote from Vincent Brushweyler

Jesus came to die so that we may have life .. The law points us to the need of Him.

Hope that answers your question why Jesus came :)
 
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Sep 29, 2009
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#26
I never questioned why Yeshua came. I questioned what purpose the Torah currently serves if we should not follow it.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#27
I never questioned why Yeshua came. I questioned what purpose the Torah currently serves if we should not follow it.
Well let me ask you, why do we need a Savior?

Also I'd like to add...

Romans 7
1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I speak to those who know the law), that the law has dominion over a man as long as he lives?
2 For the woman who has a husband is bound by the law to her husband as long as he lives. But if the husband dies, she is released from the law of her husband.
3 So then if, while her husband lives, she marries another man, she will be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law, so that she is no adulteress, though she has married another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ, that you may be married to another—to Him who was raised from the dead, that we should bear fruit to God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions which were aroused by the law were at work in our members to bear fruit to death.
6 But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.



7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”
8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead.
9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me.
12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good.

13 Has then what is good become death to me? Certainly not! But sin, that it might appear sin, was producing death in me through what is good, so that sin through the commandment might become exceedingly sinful.
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.


I know you don't agree with Paul on a lot of things but doesn't that sound right to you?
 
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D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#28
I really suggest reading Romans 5, 6, 7 and 8.. Or all of Romans if you want. But if you read those chapters you will get a good idea of what is taught and Christians should apply to their daily life. It is all about sin/law/grace. I know you have probably read it before but if you want to just check it out again. Okay God bless you .. Shalom :)
 
Sep 27, 2009
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#29
:D

Thank you all for the responses. My favorite so far is Thaddeus. This is completely in keeping with the Torah.

Indeed, G-d reminds us throughout the Torah to REMEMBER both who HE is (Exo 20, I am the L-rd your G-d, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery), and to REMEMBER where we came from (Numb 15:14-16 reminds us to treat the stranger as one of our own, and Lev 19:34 says the same, but reminds us that WE were strangers in the land of Egypt).

And in this passage Thaddeus quotes, we see perhaps Paul at this best, or at least displaying in this passage a proper understanding, that the Torah was never meant to get us eternal life (Indeed, the age of grace began in Gen 15, with Abraham). Nonetheless, Pau tells usl, the law does NOT work against the promises of G-d, as all too many people today would claim.

So, now onto what G-d Himself says.

Why DID He give us the Torah ?
_________________________


To make us holy. Lev. 19:2. Deut 28:9

To help us live. Lev. 18:5. Deut 4:40; 6:2; 30:16

To give us a relationship with God. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, the house of slavery." Exodus 20:2

To teach our children. Deut. 6:7; 11:19

To make our way prosperous and give us success. Joshua 1:7-8; Deu 30

To be happy. Psalm 1

So that none might be poor or needy. Deut 15:4-5

To teach us compassion for the stranger, the poor, the widow and the orphan. Exodus 22:21-22; 23:9, 12. Lev. 19:10, 33; 23:22; 25:35, 47. Deut. 10:18, 19; 24:14, 17, 19-21; 26:12; 27:19

To have one standard of law for the stranger and the native. Ex. 12:49. Lev. 18:26. Num. 15:16, 29. Deut 31:12

To show us the way. Genesis 46:28. Micah 6:8

To have us be righteous. Psalm 15. Isaiah 58

To study. Psalm 1. Joshua 1:8. Psalm 119.

It revives the soul; makes wise the simple; gives joy to the heart and gives light to the eyes. Ps 19:7-8

To pursue justice. Deut 16:20

To learn about sin and atonement and forgiveness for sin. Exodus 32:11-14. Leviticus 1-6; 16. Numbers 14:19-20; 15:22-31
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#30
Thanks Mobius, great study :)! God bless you.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#31
To give us a relationship with God. "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, the house of slavery." Exodus 20:2
No one's brought up the obvious topic yet as far as I can see so I will. It is claimed that the Torah gives us a relationship with God. What about those people who had relationships with God before Moses?
 
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Definition_Christ

Guest
#32
No one's brought up the obvious topic yet as far as I can see so I will. It is claimed that the Torah gives us a relationship with God. What about those people who had relationships with God before Moses?
Interesting you say that, I am curious as well. Didn't God walk with Adam? ..But no one has seen God's face at anytime except Jesus... And when we see Jesus we are seeing the Father.. Hmm anyway that's off topic but...

Also I mean.. Come on Abraham was before Moses... He was a friend of God!!

This also brought another Scripture to my mind.

John 15:15
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

How is that for a relationship with God.. Him calling us friends !! :)
 
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Jul 17, 2009
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#33
The five books of Moses are given to point toward Christ, no? It was the foundation of that which Christ fulfilled. That the externals of the law pointed toward the inward change that is only made possible by receiving Christ is key to understanding the externals themselves. I mean, according to Levitical (if I remember correctly) laws one is not supposed to even where clothes made from different "fabrics". Now, if you look at what that points toward in regards to putting on Christ, this external is fulfilled and can be lived out even though our shirt tags might read 45% polyester 15% cotton.

In regards to some of the chief objects like the tabernacle, the show bread, the altar/table, incense, etc. these things are still there but in an even richer form. If you look at the feasts like Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashana and of course Yom Kipper, they are all still there. The major Christian Feast days of today are much like Christianity itself: they are the purest form of "Judaism". Paul himself didn't consider himself a member of a sect when called to answer himself in Acts. He was a Pharisee and didn't see a lack of continuity. After Pentecost and as time went on, there were revelations, such as the error of the circumcision sect. To say that the Apostles were in some way teaching followers to disobey the law is to attempt to validate the circumcision group, which makes the Apostles obsolete which makes New Testament scripture obsolete which makes the councils that canonized those scriptures obsolete which makes obsolete Christ's own Church and this is impossible.

Plus, you have to explain what you mean by Torah. If you mean, the first five books of Moses independent of that which came after it is to become like a Samaritan (who only recognized the prophets of the Torah and didn't believe in any prophet after the Torah because they believed that the next "prophet" to come was the Messiah himself). And then the other thing you have to establish is whether or not you see the Torah as being authoritative beyond the Jewish Holy Tradition (which is impossible). So, are we also to follow the current Oral Tradition as well as Written Traditions as prescribed? And by which sect of Judaism?

You're not from New Zealand by any chance are you???

God bless
 
Sep 27, 2009
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#34
MahoganySnail / Definition_Christ-

Ah, but the Torah as a helping tool to bring us closer to G-d doesn't preclude us coming to G-d any other way. The entire nation of Israel were allowed to hear the voice of G-d! This was before Jesus OR the Torah.

Think of it like this-

We could say the same thing about Messiah, too, couldn't we? His sacrifice allows us to be reconciled, and to have a relationship with our Father, by bridging that spiritual gap that sin has created in our lives. And yet, as you both point out, yes, people DID have relationships with G-d before He had come.

So my point with that one wasn't that you cannot do any of these things without following the law. As another example, plenty of people give to charities for the homeless, widows, and orphans, who don't believe in following the Torah, or in the Bible at all.

I just wanted to post these things, because of all the disparaging things said around here about the Torah; that it's flawed, that it's imperfect, that it's a curse, all this craziness...

But when we read down a list of the reasons G-d gave, we start to form a larger picture; we're naturally reminded of our Messiah, who did teach the children, who DID show us the way, who DID help us to have a relationship with G-d, who DID care for the poor, the needy, the infirm, the hungry, who DID remember the stranger...

And I just hope that in reading down all these positive things that the Torah can do in our lives, it is my hope that it touches somebody's heart, to realize that this is how it is that we say that Jesus IS the Torah-made-flesh (John 1), and that by doing these things, we ARE modeling our own lives after His.
 
Jan 8, 2009
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#35
Interesting you say that, I am curious as well. Didn't God walk with Adam? ..But no one has seen God's face at anytime except Jesus... And when we see Jesus we are seeing the Father.. Hmm anyway that's off topic but...

Also I mean.. Come on Abraham was before Moses... He was a friend of God!!

This also brought another Scripture to my mind.

John 15:15
No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

How is that for a relationship with God.. Him calling us friends !!
Exactly, that's why somewhere the bible says the law was a tutor to lead to faith in Christ I think, it's like training wheels. I guess that's why Paul talks about brothers weak in faith who can't eat every type of meat sold. They're weak in faith in Christ because they still have the training wheels of the law on.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#36
Ah, but the Torah as a helping tool to bring us closer to G-d doesn't preclude us coming to G-d any other way.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

I just wanted to post these things, because of all the disparaging things said around here about the Torah; that it's flawed, that it's imperfect, that it's a curse, all this craziness...
Yeah, I know what you mean. What people may have meant is. Jesus has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Not the law being a curse.

And I just hope that in reading down all these positive things that the Torah can do in our lives, it is my hope that it touches somebody's heart, to realize that this is how it is that we say that Jesus IS the Torah-made-flesh (John 1), and that by doing these things, we ARE modeling our own lives after His.
I agree. God is the Word, the Word was made flesh. God was made flesh (Jesus).
 
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Sep 27, 2009
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#37
Ryna-

My position is that yes, everything in the "old" Testamen (which I call the Tanakh) DOES point foward in time towards Messiah.

BUT if that's all you get out of that relationship, then you're only getting half the story.

In the same manner, everything AFTER the Torah was written, also points BACKWARDS to it-

All the prophets in the Tanakh came to call us BACK to a lifestyle lived according to G-d's Word, and they record what happens when G-d's people do or do not heed that call. Also, what in Hebraic Bibles call "the writings", the section including Kings and Chronicles, even in times where there may not be a prophet at the center of that call, it's still full of themes, like King David, and relays to us how things will go for us, if we do things His way, or if we do them our own way.

The same applies with the "new" testament, as well. Jesus lived a life of perfect Torah adherence, to show us that it could be done, to show us how much good we could accomplish(or more directly, G-d could accomplish through us), by trusting G-d, and walking according to His paths.

I'm sorry, I have to run, I'll reply to the rest later.
 
Sep 27, 2009
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#38
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw His Sh'khinah,
the Sh'khinah of the Father's only Son, full of grace and truth. -John 1:14

There is no distinction, friends, and no conflict between Messiah and Torah. They are one and the same, and you can not come to the Father any other way.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#39
John 1 also teaches that Jesus is God.. John 1:1 teaches the Word is eternal and IS God. Keep that in mind.

The word became flesh (Jesus)..
God became flesh (Jesus).

God and the Word cannot be separated. You are 100% correct :).
 
Sep 27, 2009
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#40
Not true. IN THE BEGINNING, The Word WAS with G-d, AND the Word WAS G-d.

I think I've explained this in another thread, so I'll try to stay brief.

Before anything was created, there was only G-d. It was by speaking G-d's Word that G-d created the world. But before He had spoken His Word, there was not even G-d's Word. His Word (along with everything else) was with Him, and WAS Him, for there was nothing else.

Once He spoke His Word, the Word of G-d then had an identity of its own, and became the frist created thing (the Alpha and Omega), and it was THROUGH this Word that the world was created.

The verb form in "the Word was G-d" is a perfect tense, meaning that the action is completed.
 
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