Why did G-d give us the Torah?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Status
Not open for further replies.
M

mcubed

Guest
#61
#61
Definition_Christ said:
Very sad day when someone doesn't believe the Messiah fulfilled the WHOLE LAW.Meaning He only did some of the work - we have to finish it.


Nope I think I'll believe;

John 19:30
So when Yeshua had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished! ” And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.
Click to expand...

That is not what I believe at all, not even close.
Jermiah 31:30-34 says:
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. 31. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. 32. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. 33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember. 34. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
Repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
The kingdom of G-d is the here and now but also the not yeat, the fullness of the kingdom will be when Yashua returns. Yes, He has written His Word in our hearts, and He brings His Word to our remembrance. But we still have to study His Word and the day will come when He returns that we won’t have to any more. We still have to teach others about the Lord we must bring as many into the kingdom as we can not everyone just knows Him. Just as the promises of healing and prosperity are the here and the now but also the not yet, we will have the fullness of them when Yashua returns. He broke the curse, He conquered sin but we will not be free from it completely until He returns.


You are correct in redemption from sin and death was finished on the Cross!!!!
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#62
#62
mcubed said:
That is not what I believe at all, not even close.
Jermiah 31:30-34 says:
Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. 31. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. 32. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. 33. And no longer shall one teach his neighbor or [shall] one [teach] his brother, saying, "Know the Lord," for they shall all know Me from their smallest to their greatest, says the Lord, for I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will no longer remember. 34. So said the Lord, Who gives the sun to illuminate by day, the laws of the moon and the stars to illuminate at night, Who stirs up the sea and its waves roar, the Lord of Hosts is His name.
Repeated in Hebrews 8:10-12:
"The time is coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. 9It will not be like the covenant I made with their forefathers
when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to my covenant, and I turned away from them, declares the Lord. 10This is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds
and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. 11No longer will a man teach his neighbor, or a man his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. 12For I will forgive their wickedness
and will remember their sins no more."
The kingdom of G-d is the here and now but also the not yeat, the fullness of the kingdom will be when Yashua returns. Yes, He has written His Word in our hearts, and He brings His Word to our remembrance. But we still have to study His Word and the day will come when He returns that we won’t have to any more. We still have to teach others about the Lord we must bring as many into the kingdom as we can not everyone just knows Him. Just as the promises of healing and prosperity are the here and the now but also the not yet, we will have the fullness of them when Yashua returns. He broke the curse, He conquered sin but we will not be free from it completely until He returns.


You are correct in redemption from sin and death was finished on the Cross!!!!
Click to expand...
I don't think you are understanding the new covenant, you are interpreting the Tanakh with the Brit Hadasha in stead of the other way around. Of course we have to study His word and teach others about the kingdom, that has nothing to do with the Levitical law though.

We are not under the levitical law we are under the order of Melchizedek. Our High Priest is not a Levite nor is He under the levitical priesthood He is under the order of Melchizedek.


Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law.

John 1:17
For the law was given through Moshe, but grace and truth came through Yeshua the Messiah

May He open our eyes to the truth, shalom.
 
M

mcubed

Guest
#63
#63
This is the biggest division between Christians and Messianic Jews. It’s like the “fight” between Calvinist andArminianism. We all agree that salvation is through Yashua alone, He is the final sacrifice, the spotless lamb of G-d.
Hebrews 7 shows how Yashua was able to fulfill the Law because He is from the tribe of Judah and not a Levite and yes the ritual laws were all "types and shadows" of Messiah. According to the book of Hebrews (and elsewhere) once the real had come, in the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Messiah, the "shadows" were no longer needed. The moral laws, The "thou shalt not"s. If you read the New Testament, you will find that these laws (against murder, adultery, theft, slander, gossip, homosexuality, lust, etc. are repeated in the New Testament. The New Testament still commands us to be Law observant. To believe that Torah passed away would mean that G-d changes His ways, which is impossible, for He said, "I am YHVH, I change not," Malachi 3:6, and "I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one small letter or one punctuation mark will in any way be removed from the Torah," Matthew 5:18. If you believe that Yeshua is G-d in the flesh then you must accept that His own "hand" invented Torah and He cannot conflict with Himself. If He is the same "yesterday, today and forever" then His thoughts are the same at all times. Moses is the house, and Yeshua is the builder, why would Yeshua tear down His own house (Hebrews 3:2-4). The foundation for the New Covenant is the former (Old) Covenants. Not visa versa. None of G-d's covenants can conflict or contradict, so the only thing that is truth is that understanding which allows for unity between them, without removing any of them.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#64
#64
mcubed said:
This is the biggest division between Christians and Messianic Jews. It’s like the “fight” between Calvinist andArminianism. We all agree that salvation is through Yashua alone, He is the final sacrifice, the spotless lamb of G-d.
Hebrews 7 shows how Yashua was able to fulfill the Law because He is from the tribe of Judah and not a Levite and yes the ritual laws were all "types and shadows" of Messiah. According to the book of Hebrews (and elsewhere) once the real had come, in the crucifixion, death, burial and resurrection of Messiah, the "shadows" were no longer needed. The moral laws, The "thou shalt not"s. If you read the New Testament, you will find that these laws (against murder, adultery, theft, slander, gossip, homosexuality, lust, etc. are repeated in the New Testament. The New Testament still commands us to be Law observant. To believe that Torah passed away would mean that G-d changes His ways, which is impossible, for He said, "I am YHVH, I change not," Malachi 3:6, and "I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one small letter or one punctuation mark will in any way be removed from the Torah," Matthew 5:18. If you believe that Yeshua is G-d in the flesh then you must accept that His own "hand" invented Torah and He cannot conflict with Himself. If He is the same "yesterday, today and forever" then His thoughts are the same at all times. Moses is the house, and Yeshua is the builder, why would Yeshua tear down His own house (Hebrews 3:2-4). The foundation for the New Covenant is the former (Old) Covenants. Not visa versa. None of G-d's covenants can conflict or contradict, so the only thing that is truth is that understanding which allows for unity between them, without removing any of them.
Click to expand...
Not going to argue with you about the Torah. I don't think your sterotype of Messianic Judaism is all that accurate either. It's mostly Gentile converts to Judaism who later realize Yeshua is the Messiah and they claim the title "messianic Jew", you find this mainly in America and a few other parts of the world. True Jews (Not people who grow up secular, although they have Jewish parents and attend to the High Holy Days).

I am talking about real Jews who grow up orthodox and are actually religious and understand about the Torah. Those are the Jews who don't get offended by Sha'ul (Paul)'s letters because they actually understand them. When this type of Jew turns to Yeshua they can claim the title of "Messianic Jew", I don't think your stereotype of Messianic Judaism is all that accurate or your interpretation of Scripture. Mainly because you are making a big deal about the Torah, don't you understand ALL Scripture is inspired by God? That means take everything into consideration not just parts of the Bible you like. Sha'ul talks about the TRUE meaning of the Torah in His first letter to Timothy.
 
M

mcubed

Guest
#65
#65
People take Scripture and "prove" if they sin too much they will loose their salvation while others take Scripture and "prove" they never will, people do the same thing with healing, the gifts, prosperity and so on (the same with this issue)..... all of these things are debatable and it does make serving Yashua exciting. What is not debatable is that Yashua is the only way unto salvation. I think we will all be shocked when we get to heaven and find out where we have missed it, but I think we will all be pleasantly surprised to find out where we got it right too.
 
D

Definition_Christ

Guest
#66
#66
mcubed said:
People take Scripture and "prove" if they sin too much they will loose their salvation while others take Scripture and "prove" they never will, people do the same thing with healing, the gifts, prosperity and so on (the same with this issue)..... all of these things are debatable and it does make serving Yashua exciting. What is not debatable is that Yashua is the only way unto salvation. I think we will all be shocked when we get to heaven and find out where we have missed it, but I think we will all be pleasantly surprised to find out where we got it right too.
Click to expand...
Okay I get your point - we can agree to disagree but as long as we agree on Yeshua. That sounds kosher to me.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.