Why do Dispensationalists teach Separation Theology?

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UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#1
I have been studying end-time events for the last few years, off and on.

The four major views of end-time events come from:

Amillennialism
Historical Premillennialism
Postmillennialism
Premillennial Dispensationalism

I have ordered them according to the ones I find the most credible.

Anyways, if you engage folks who hold the different theologies, you would likely find that Premillennial Dispensationalists are the most nasty, in terms of insults. In fact, one premillennial dispensationalist on this forum told me I was accursed for my position on this issue. The accusation of this individual is the primary reason why I am starting this thread.

The most common claim is that others believe in "replacement theology". This is a term that I find objectionable, because it implies that others don't think God has any purpose for Jewish individuals.

Well, this isn't true. There is only one people of God, Jews and Gentiles together. God doesn't have a separate plan for Jews, and a separate plan for Gentiles.

Scripture clearly teaches that the Church is one people, Jew and Gentile together. They have been united in Christ:

Ephesians 2:11-22 11 Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called “the uncircumcision” by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands— 12 remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15 by abolishing the law of commandments expressed in ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16 and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17 And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by the Spirit.
(ESV Strong's)

Galatians 3:28-29 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
(ESV Strong's)

Additionally, the claim is that non-dispensationalists believe that God is a promise-breaker..not true.

The questions I would have about any promise God made to anyone are:

1. Was the promise unconditional, or was it conditional upon obedience, etc?
2. Was the promise fulfilled already in the past?
3. Is the promise fulfilled in Jesus?
4. Is the promise fulfilled exactly, or is it fulfilled in an even greater way?

No non-dispensationalist I know claims that God is a promise-breaker.

Let me give you an example on where I think dispensationalists don't view Scripture correctly.

Abraham and his descendants were promised the land of Canaan in the OT. Yet, in the NT, we find that Abraham is heir to the WHOLE WORLD.

Romans 4:13 13 For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
(ESV Strong's)

Dispensationalists are looking for Abraham's descendants to occupy the Promised Land, but not the whole world, when Scripture says that it is fulfilled in his inheritance of the whole world.

But how is that fulfilled? Jesus is his physical descendant, and all believers, Jew and Gentile, are united through faith with Jesus. Therefore, all of Abraham's descendants, both physical and spiritual, receive this inheritance as co-heirs with Christ.

I don't think the dispensationalist wants you to hear that, though..because they believe in Separation Theology. I don't know if this a term that has already been coined, but it amply describes their position. While they accuse others of being adherents to "Replacement Theology", they themselves believe in Separation Theology.

As I have studied the doctrine of union in Christ heavily, I believe that dispensationalism is abhorrent to God due to this artificial separation of God's people.

By the way, I will anticipate that those on this thread will accuse me of "spiritualizing" away Scripture....and tell me that I am using "allegory". In this attempt, they are simply denying clearly what Scripture says on this particular point. Additionally, there is no spiritualizing of Scripture to realize that God is fulfilling the promises to Abraham and his descendants (both physical and spiritual) through Abraham, who is Jesus' ancestor, and who all believers are joined to.

In fact, I think union with Christ is a sorely neglected topic in the Church, and this neglect has contributed to dispensational doctrine.

The sad thing is that within the USA, dispensationalism is the norm because it is taught by sects that have been heavily involved in evangelizing.

I would recommend the book A Case for Amillennialism by Kim Riddlebarger to understand how dispensational theology doesn't align with the way the apostles interpreted the Old Testament prophecies in the New Testament. It is very clear that dispensationalists are not in alignment with the apostles on this. If you examine John MacArthur on some of the NT texts regarding fulfillment of OT texts regarding Israel by the Church, you will find that he has to do gymnastics to read his dispensationalism into them.

I am attaching a chart that is handy for understanding how dispensationialism views the Millennium.
 

Attachments

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,088
3,202
113
#2
As Paul exhorts, please DON'T be ignorant: Replacement theology is a pernicious, anti Christian doctrine:

Romans 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


This is the beginning, middle, and end for the Replacement Theologists!
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#3
With regards to dispensationalists and how they interpret Scripture, they are famous for claiming to be the ones who have the right interpretation, because they interpret Scripture "literally".

However, the reality is that they interpret Scripture literally when it aligns with their overall understanding of the Bible, and they switch to figurative interpretation when it aligns with their overall understanding of the Bible. Additionally, there are differences of interpretation and several camps within dispensationalism. If their hermeneutical methods are so fantastic, why do they differ so much between these different camps?

The reality is they interpret the Bible with dispensational lenses, and that affects how they view Scripture.

I interacted with a dispensational pastor on Christianchat in the past. I would point out obvious shadows and types, and he would tell me that unless the Bible identifies a shadow or type, my interpretation is not valid. Now, I understand that some people go way overboard with typology, but when the types are very obvious, it is appropriate to identify them.

For instance, there is a type between the sacred spaces of the Garden of Eden, the Israelite Camp, the Holy City of Jerusalem, and the New Jerusalem. Things associated with uncleanness or death were to be taken outside of the camp. We see this with Adam and Eve being expelled from the Garden of Eden, the unclean person being placed outside the Israelite Camp, unclean individuals living outside the Holy City of Jerusalem, and the spiritually unclean, unredeemable individuals being placed outside the New Jerusalem.

Yet, I would likely not be able to identify these typological relationships within a dispensational church because reasoning in a typological fashion is a major faux pas.

So, I am not a fan of dispensational hermeneutics. I don't believe that the overall dispensationalist worldview is correct. Nor do I think it aligns with how the Apostles interpreted Scripture.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,309
1,714
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#4
God does not break His covenants or void His promises. Man breaks the covenants and voids the promises.

It is unwise to disregard dispensational teaching. God has selected Israel to be His covenant people and to take His word to the nations round about. God is not finished with Israel and Israel will be the focus of the tribulation that is yet to come. The church is the bride of Christ while Israel is the bride of Jehovah. The church will be absent from the earth during the tribulation but Israel will be front and center.

Since none of this is effects ones salvation you may enjoy your speculations about what others believe without great effect on the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,958
1,791
113
#5
I don't understand why people lump different doctrines into one and make out they are the same..

I am a premillennialist but i do not believe in replacement theology.. They are two different doctrines.. Why do people lump them together as if they are somehow enchained together and you cannot have one without the other???

The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly reveals a 1000 year reign of Jesus with His Saints on earth after the return of Jesus revealed in Chapter 19.. The 1000 years will end with the final judgement..
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#6
As Paul exhorts, please DON'T be ignorant: Replacement theology is a pernicious, anti Christian doctrine:

Romans 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


This is the beginning, middle, and end for the Replacement Theologists!
There's nothing about this verse that challenges non-dispensationalists.

I believe that a large harvest of Jews will occur just prior to Christ's return. This is not inconsistent with non-dispensationalist theology.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#7
God does not break His covenants or void His promises. Man breaks the covenants and voids the promises.

It is unwise to disregard dispensational teaching. God has selected Israel to be His covenant people and to take His word to the nations round about. God is not finished with Israel and Israel will be the focus of the tribulation that is yet to come. The church is the bride of Christ while Israel is the bride of Jehovah. The church will be absent from the earth during the tribulation but Israel will be front and center.

Since none of this is effects ones salvation you may enjoy your speculations about what others believe without great effect on the world.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The Church is fulfilling this prophecy now.

This is related to the post I made on another thread:

Since you bring this up, it is a good time to show how dispensationalists fall off the wagon when it comes to quotes from the OT about ancient Israel.

Here's the verse:

Acts 13:47 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
(ESV Strong's)

Paul says that AT THAT TIME, Jesus commanded them, saying that they (Paul and his friends) were a fulfillment of this verse.

Here's how DA Carson (a historical premillennialist) views the verse:


Acts 13:47 13:47 light for the Gentiles. Paul applies Isaiah’s Messianic prophecy concerning the servant of the Lord (Isa 49:6; cf. Isa 42:6) to himself and the other missionaries since the church carries out the Messiah’s mission to the world.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Here's how Wayne Grudem (another historical premillennialist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46 13:46–47 Citing Isa. 49:6, Paul stated he was now turning to the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas can be seen as doing the work of the Servant because of their connection to Jesus. It was necessary to begin with the Jews since they were God's chosen people and had priority in salvation history (see note on Rom. 1:16). unworthy. Their stubborn resistance showed Paul that it would not be worthwhile for him to spend any more time trying to reason with them.
(ESV SB Notes)

Here's how John MacArthur (a premillennial dispensationalist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46-47 Acts 13:46 first to you. God offered the plan of salvation to the Jews first (Matt. 10:5–6 15:24; Luke 24:47; Rom. 1:16). Although the thrust of Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, he had a desire to see Jews saved (Rom. 9:1–5 10:1), preaching to them first in many cities (see note on Acts 13:5). we are turning to the Gentiles. Because the Jews rejected the gospel. But God never planned salvation as an exclusive possession of the Jews (Isa. 42:1 6 49:6).
Acts 13:47 Quoted from Isa. 49:6.
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Notice how unclear MacArthur is, that these verses are being fulfilled in the apostles AT THAT TIME. Why? I think that he is wary of stepping on dispensationalist toes, who think that this prophecy will be fulfilled by Israel in the Millennium, and are not being fulfilled today by the Church.

They get a rash when verses about Israel are applied to the Church, because they believe in Separation Theology.
 
Mar 14, 2011
63,147
9,774
113
#8
1. You have never heard discussions with amills or preterists then, i have been called more names by them, b n called lost been called teaching a different gospel l etc etc..

2 replace,ent theology is objectionable. Not only tdid yy church but to god, it states gods promises he made to Isreal are now good given to the church, instead of th fact that the church is th fulfilment of one aspect of abrahams covenant (in you shall all nations be blessed)
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#9
As Paul exhorts, please DON'T be ignorant: Replacement theology is a pernicious, anti Christian doctrine:

Romans 11:25 New King James Version (NKJV)
25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.


This is the beginning, middle, and end for the Replacement Theologists!
How do you claim it is an anti-Christian doctrine? My focus is being in union with Christ. The believer is joined to Jesus in a legal and spiritual sense, and that is what counts. Physical union with Abraham's body doesn't matter. Believers are spiritual offspring of Abraham through being joined to Christ.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,958
1,791
113
#10
Anyways, if you engage folks who hold the different theologies, you would likely find that Premillennial Dispensationalists are the most nasty, in terms of insults. In fact, one premillennial dispensationalist on this forum told me I was accursed for my position on this issue.
It's also very unwise to almost provoke an argument by stating that people who believe in premillennialism are nasty people wanting to have fights... I am a premillennialist and i an not nasty and i do not want to fight.. So i will turn my cheek to what was quoted above and give it to God..
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,088
3,202
113
#11
I don't understand why people lump different doctrines into one and make out they are the same..

I am a premillennialist but i do not believe in replacement theology.. They are two different doctrines.. Why do people lump them together as if they are somehow enchained together and you cannot have one without the other???

The Book of Revelation chapter 20 clearly reveals a 1000 year reign of Jesus with His Saints on earth after the return of Jesus revealed in Chapter 19.. The 1000 years will end with the final judgement..
It's Amillennials that are the replacement theologists.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,088
3,202
113
#12
How do you claim it is an anti-Christian doctrine? My focus is being in union with Christ. The believer is joined to Jesus in a legal and spiritual sense, and that is what counts. Physical union with Abraham's body doesn't matter. Believers are spiritual offspring of Abraham through being joined to Christ.
Didn't answer Romans 11:25 I see. All you did was say we can't believe exactly what it says.
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#13
1. You have never heard discussions with amills or preterists then, i have been called more names by them, b n called lost been called teaching a different gospel l etc etc..

2 replace,ent theology is objectionable. Not only tdid yy church but to god, it states gods promises he made to Isreal are now good given to the church, instead of th fact that the church is th fulfilment of one aspect of abrahams covenant (in you shall all nations be blessed)
OK..so I outlined questions in regards to this.

Which promise are you talking about?

Was it fulfilled at any point in the past?

Was it conditional upon obedience?

Is it fulfilled in Christ, and does it apply to those who are spiritual descendants of Abraham?

I doubt you have been attacked much by amillennials. They usually don't bother to discuss this topic with dispensationalists due to their nastiness. I have been warned not to bring this topic up by others, because of the amount of vitriole it generates.

However, I can't have intelligent conversations on this forum without mentioning it in some conversations.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,958
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#14
It's Amillennials that are the replacement theologists.
Do you know that for sure? Do all people who believe in Amillennialism must also believe in replacement theology?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#15
Didn't answer Romans 11:25 I see.

I did answer it, and I answered it clearly.

There will be a great evangelizing of Jews just prior to Jesus' return, and many will come to faith.

Regarding the hardening of Israel, all mankind is hardened and cannot understand the gospel until God opens their eyes. He is going to open their eyes just prior to Jesus' return and they will be saved.

And, they will receive their glorified bodies when Jesus returns. I don't think most dispensationalists believe this..instead they believe those individuals will inhabit fleshly bodies after Jesus returns.
 

PennEd

Senior Member
Apr 22, 2013
7,088
3,202
113
#16
How do you claim it is an anti-Christian doctrine? My focus is being in union with Christ. The believer is joined to Jesus in a legal and spiritual sense, and that is what counts. Physical union with Abraham's body doesn't matter. Believers are spiritual offspring of Abraham through being joined to Christ.
It is anti Christian by necessity because it is anti- Christ by necessity. JESUS REMAINS A JEW.

WE, have been grafted into the JEWISH Messiah. Replacement theology is directly responsible for not only the Holocaust, but pogroms and Jewish persecution all through history.

The Jews ARE back in the Land. How does that compute with your doctrine?
 

UnitedWithChrist

Well-known member
Aug 12, 2019
567
315
63
#17
Do you know that for sure? Do all people who believe in Amillennialism must also believe in replacement theology?
They don't believe in "replacement theology". That is a term coined by dispensationalists.

They believe that the Church is the fulfillment of the pattern that was established with Israel. And, this fulfillment is composed of both jews and Gentiles.

That is why I am coining the term "Separation Theology". Dispensationalists believe that there is a separation between Jew and Gentile, and God has separate plans for them.

I quoted verses that disprove this idea. Both are joined in Christ, and become one man (see Ephesians 2).
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
4,958
1,791
113
#18
I did answer it, and I answered it clearly.

There will be a great evangelizing of Jews just prior to Jesus' return, and many will come to faith.

Regarding the hardening of Israel, all mankind is hardened and cannot understand the gospel until God opens their eyes. He is going to open their eyes just prior to Jesus' return and they will be saved.

And, they will receive their glorified bodies when Jesus returns. I don't think most dispensationalists believe this..instead they believe those individuals will inhabit fleshly bodies after Jesus returns.
Where does the Bible say that just before the return of Jesus Jewish sinners will embrace the Gospel message of Jesus on mass and be saved from the judgement to come???
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
13,309
1,714
113
#19
The Church is fulfilling this prophecy now.

This is related to the post I made on another thread:

Since you bring this up, it is a good time to show how dispensationalists fall off the wagon when it comes to quotes from the OT about ancient Israel.

Here's the verse:

Acts 13:47 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,
“‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
(ESV Strong's)

Paul says that AT THAT TIME, Jesus commanded them, saying that they (Paul and his friends) were a fulfillment of this verse.

Here's how DA Carson (a historical premillennialist) views the verse:


Acts 13:47 13:47 light for the Gentiles. Paul applies Isaiah’s Messianic prophecy concerning the servant of the Lord (Isa 49:6; cf. Isa 42:6) to himself and the other missionaries since the church carries out the Messiah’s mission to the world.
(NIV Biblical Theology Study Bible)

Here's how Wayne Grudem (another historical premillennialist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46 13:46–47 Citing Isa. 49:6, Paul stated he was now turning to the Gentiles. Paul and Barnabas can be seen as doing the work of the Servant because of their connection to Jesus. It was necessary to begin with the Jews since they were God's chosen people and had priority in salvation history (see note on Rom. 1:16). unworthy. Their stubborn resistance showed Paul that it would not be worthwhile for him to spend any more time trying to reason with them.
(ESV SB Notes)

Here's how John MacArthur (a premillennial dispensationalist) views the verse:

Acts 13:46-47 Acts 13:46 first to you. God offered the plan of salvation to the Jews first (Matt. 10:5–6 15:24; Luke 24:47; Rom. 1:16). Although the thrust of Paul’s ministry was to Gentiles, he had a desire to see Jews saved (Rom. 9:1–5 10:1), preaching to them first in many cities (see note on Acts 13:5). we are turning to the Gentiles. Because the Jews rejected the gospel. But God never planned salvation as an exclusive possession of the Jews (Isa. 42:1 6 49:6).
Acts 13:47 Quoted from Isa. 49:6.
(MacArthur Study Notes (ESV))

Notice how unclear MacArthur is, that these verses are being fulfilled in the apostles AT THAT TIME. Why? I think that he is wary of stepping on dispensationalist toes, who think that this prophecy will be fulfilled by Israel in the Millennium, and are not being fulfilled today by the Church.

They get a rash when verses about Israel are applied to the Church, because they believe in Separation Theology.
The church is receiving the blessing promised to Israel. The prophecy is still to Israel and not to the church. The gospel came first to Israel then when they rejected their promised Messiah the blessing passed to the Gentiles.

For the cause of Christ
Roger