Why do people not understand.. Dead means dead.

[kennethcadwell]

If you would just open your eyes to the absurdity of what you just stated ok let me get this straight...

saved--sin--lost--repent--saved--sinned--lost--repent--saved--sinned--lost--repent---saved--sinned--lost--repent
over and over and over and over and over.....yeah right.....NOT!

I guess that applies if someone is blind to the truth as no one I know who teaches eternal security believes that and or promotes that....so..your point is?

This right here on what you are saying shows that you read and listen to the word, but you do not hear the word.
For if you hear the word you would be a doer of the word as well.
The parable of the lost sheep for example that our Lord Jesus gave. He said a lost sheep, one of His goes astray and gets lost. He is not saying a unbeliever gets lost, because a unbeliever is already and has always been lost. He is saying one who is in the fold, a believer gets lost by falling away to sin. He leaves the flock of the other 99 who are in a saved state headed to salvation to go after the one who has lost their way to salvation. He goes to lead them back to the flock through repentance. If the lost sheep does not repent, they stay lost from that road to salvation.

He gave this to us for an example as He tells us if one of our congregation goes astray, we are called to go after them and bring them back in repentance. It then now falls on them after you have come to them and ministered to them to repent of their sin and turn back to the Lord.
Also by what you said it still shows that you don't understand the context of willful sin the bible speaks of since you want to make all sin willful sin. The willful sin the bible talks about is the unrepented sin that controls one life to where they obey it on a every day basis.
Example: A person who is gay says that they have faith in the Lord, but continue to walk in that sin without repenting and turning away from it. There is no salvation for those who do this.
And this applies to any sin; If you continue to lie everyday, or commit sexual immorality everyday, and so on without repenting of it and turning from doing these things then there is no salvation. This also applies to if believe in the Lord, and then turn back away from Him to go back to these sins.

When you repent of sins the first initial time, it only covers past and present sins. It does not cover future sins, future sins as the scriptures make clear still have to be asked forgiveness of and repented of.

Revelation 3:4 show how only a small group of the church in Sardis did not soil ( defile ) themselves with sin again, and were found worthy to be dressed in white and walk with Jesus.

1 Timothy 5:22, Paul warns Timothy that he can get spiritually defiled through sin again. You can not get defiled if your future sins are previously pre-forgiven.

Then James in his 1st chapter gives believers a warning about giving into your desires;

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

There are even more scriptures that show that future sins are not automatically forgiven, and that a believer can become defiled with sin again. The biggest one is this;

[h=1]Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.[/h]

If you are forgiven of past, present, and future sins then it would not matter if you keep sinning willfully after accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior, for they would be forgiven anyway. But this scripture says no, that you will still face judgment and a place in the lake of fire.

 

[SoulWeaver]

I've noticed that a lot of people here claim that anybody who believes in eternal security automatically does not obey God or cannot be a doer of the Word.
This is a very bold and judgmental claim, to say the least.
Romans 10:6-7

 

[newbirth]

Amen, I agree with 99% of what OSAS'ers say. I believe you can't loose your salvation, and I also believe He will never leave or forsake us. The reason that I am not quite there is because of things like Hebrews 6:4-10. It seems to be addressed to believers. Verses 9 and 10 seem to indicate that this is not the normal or common way for a believer to go, but still, it makes casting away one's salvation sound like a possibility. I have full assurance of my Salvation because I am not going to do that. Not many would spit in the dear Lord's face once they realized how much He loves them. Would you want God to have to suffer the presence of such a perfidious one for all eternity?

bro you are not saved in or of yourself....you are saved in Christ ...salvation is in Christ...if salvation is in Christ and we are in Christ only then are we saved....there can be no sin in Christ.... 1 John 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
John 12:46
I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

2 Peter 2:19-22King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]19 [/SUP]While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
[SUP]21 [/SUP]For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[newbirth]

I've noticed that a lot of people here claim that anybody who believes in eternal security automatically does not obey God or cannot be a doer of the Word.
This is a very bold and judgmental claim, to say the least.
Romans 10:6-7

because of your doctrine...obedience and doing has no bearing on your salvation....whether you do or not ...obey or not you are still saved......

 

[kennethcadwell]

because of your doctrine...obedience and doing has no bearing on your salvation....whether you do or not ...obey or not you are still saved......

The problem is with this is that obedience is all over the bible, and the NT makes it clear that future sins are not covered as it shows that believers can become defiled in sin again.

 

[SoulWeaver]

because of your doctrine...obedience and doing has no bearing on your salvation....whether you do or not ...obey or not you are still saved......

Nope, that's never been taught on here. That's what you and some others are implying and putting into others' mouths.
The Bible says that those who dont obey have never been saved to begin with - they never were His sheep, no change of heart.
While the sheep dont lose their salvation.
My post was perfectly in place and the judges will well recognize themselves in my post.

 

[kennethcadwell]

Nope, that's never been taught on here. That's what you and some others are implying and putting into others' mouths.
The Bible says that those who dont obey have never been saved to begin with - they never were His sheep, no change of heart.
While the sheep dont lose their salvation.
My post was perfectly in place and the judges will well recognize themselves in my post.

Luke 15


The Parable of the Lost Sheep


15 Now the tax collectors and sinners were all gathering around to hear Jesus. 2 But the Pharisees and the teachers of the law muttered, “This man welcomes sinners and eats with them.”


3 Then Jesus told them this parable: 4 “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Doesn’t he leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? 5 And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders 6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ 7 I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent.


The parable of the lost sheep the Lord gives shows that sheep do get lost, and unless they come back in repentance do they regain that salvation. Now lets see the scriptures I gave from Hebrews again;


Hebrews 6:4-6


For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.



Notice here it says they shared in receiving the Holy Spirit, and yet when they fell back to sin they could not be brought back to repent of them. They stayed lost, with no salvation.



Hebrews 3:12-14


Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.


This one here shows that they are partakers in Christ, and only stay that way if they continue to hold to that faith in Him and His teachings.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

According to your theology sinners go to heaven, do you believe someone that sins is spiritually dead? do you believe that spiritually dead people will go to heaven? You must reject that or claim Christ and the cross were not necessary, you cannot do both.

Ah here we go. Now we get to the bottom of the debate.

Some people are mor righteous than others, and thus earn salvation because they do not sin.

Thats funny, as Abraham was a sinner, King David was a sinner, Moses was a sinner Peter was a sinner, Paul was a sinner.

I guess they are in hell today, and people like jabberjaw here are much better then these beloved children of God.

Face it, Until you realize just how sinful you truly are, you will never understand grace.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

is that what you understand the scripture says...? the passage makes no mention of lost salvation....no mention of never be saved again....no mention of only one repentance...

this is why no one can discuss anything with you. You say one thing, then when confronted you backtrack, and make every excuse in the book to make yourself look right.

You use this passage to prove one can fall away (lose salvation)
This passage quite clearly says if you FALL away, you can never be renews to repentnance.
This it clearly states, if you lost your repentance, it can not be renewed (only one try)

Good luck with your works..

 

[newbirth]

Nope, that's never been taught on here. That's what you and some others are implying and putting into others' mouths.
The Bible says that those who dont obey have never been saved to begin with - they never were His sheep, no change of heart.
While the sheep dont lose their salvation.
My post was perfectly in place and the judges will well recognize themselves in my post.

what about the lost sheep....??? no one has to put anything in anyone's mouth that is what eternal security is....is it not...it does not matter what you do you cannot lose salvation....the scripture is full of people disobeying God ...are you saying they were never saved to begin with?

seems as if Paul had problems with this whole Church ...are you saying they were not saved to begin with????

Ephesians 4:17-29King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]17 [/SUP]This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But ye have not so learned Christ;
[SUP]21 [/SUP]If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
[SUP]22 [/SUP]That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]Neither give place to the devil.
[SUP]28 [/SUP]Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.
[SUP]29 [/SUP]Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Amen, I agree with 99% of what OSAS'ers say. I believe you can't loose your salvation, and I also believe He will never leave or forsake us. The reason that I am not quite there is because of things like Hebrews 6:4-10. It seems to be addressed to believers. Verses 9 and 10 seem to indicate that this is not the normal or common way for a believer to go, but still, it makes casting away one's salvation sound like a possibility. I have full assurance of my Salvation because I am not going to do that. Not many would spit in the dear Lord's face once they realized how much He loves them. Would you want God to have to suffer the presence of such a perfidious one for all eternity?

Actually Hebrews is speaking of returning to law. Returning to the point where when one sins, Salvation is lost (they fall away) until a sacrifice is given, either by a priest, or the day of atonement.

His whole argument in the chapter is why would you return to law. have you fallen from grace etc.. here he is telling them, if one could fall away, they could not be renewed, One does not come out of an extreme legalistic religion. Find grace and forgiveness in anothe religion, then return to the religion they truly trusted in, then return again to grace, it is not going to happen, their hearts would be too hard.

not to mention, if you return to law, you put Christ to open shame.

either way, if you look at the next few verses, you will see the loss of salvation is not in context here.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I've noticed that a lot of people here claim that anybody who believes in eternal security automatically does not obey God or cannot be a doer of the Word.
This is a very bold and judgmental claim, to say the least.
Romans 10:6-7

it is their go to excuse.

we believe in faith alone, we MUST believe we can sin however much we want, and not just believe it but do it. why else would we reject works.. it does not compute to them.

plus I think alot of them are told it so much in their churches, they actually believe it (called brainwashing)

 

[dcontroversal]

According to your theology sinners go to heaven, do you believe someone that sins is spiritually dead? do you believe that spiritually dead people will go to heaven? You must reject that or claim Christ and the cross were not necessary, you cannot do both.

I suggest you study the bible as your theology is like a fish out of water.....here let me clue you in

1. The spirit that is born AGAIN of God does not sin, is eternally secure in Jesus, goes to heaven upon death and will be brought back to get a BODY THAT IS CHANGED and one LIKE UNTO JESUS after HIS resurrection!

2. The SPIRIT that is BORN again is bound in a SINFUL body of FLESH until death...that BODY is corrupt, fallen and is not SUBJECT unto the LAWS of GOD and neither in deed CAN BE.

The SPIRIT is indeed willing and the FLESH is WEAK!

IF we say that we HAVE NO SIN we are DECIEVED and the truth IS NOT IN US.....

I would ask if you know about PAUL, but it is obvious that you do not...ANYWAY, PAUL said when he goes to do GOOD he finds a LAW that SIN is PRESENT with him and that he does the things he said he will NOT DO and while NOT DOING the things that he said he will do.

1. The least of the Apostles
2. The least of the SAINTS
3. The NUMBER ONE CHIEF SINNER AMONG MEN

Yes, SINNERS who have trusted JESUS in a BIBLICAL MANNER go to heaven EVERY DAY when they DIE....maybe if you trust JESUS in a biblical manner instead of your own works and self you too while being a SINNER can be guaranteed HEAVEN......!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Nope, that's never been taught on here. That's what you and some others are implying and putting into others' mouths.
The Bible says that those who dont obey have never been saved to begin with - they never were His sheep, no change of heart.
While the sheep dont lose their salvation.
My post was perfectly in place and the judges will well recognize themselves in my post.

They can not fathom what we believe would even be relaistic, to them, it is all about works and obedience. So we must reject it.

They do not see us when we come on a brother or sister in sin, and confront him of that sin, and even chasten them (if need be) and desire a brother or sister to do the same for us.

If we even mention it, we are liars.

 

[SoulWeaver]

what about the lost sheep....???

The parable of the lost sheep the Lord gives shows that sheep do get lost, and unless they come back in repentance do they regain that salvation.

I disagree with this interpretation, that story shows us how Jesus gathers His sheep and His love for us. It nowhere shows that some sheep remained lost and ungathered, which would support what you say.
There are promises in the Old Testament that He would gather His. Why does it say that the Shepherd "loses none"? It contradicts the Scripture to believe that His salvation can be lost, because it contradicts that God loses none, and that "no one will snatch us out of His hand" (but yet we somehow can be dropped out of His hand).
A sheep can backslide, like Peter did, and he repented and continued serving Jesus. He even backslided in hypocrisy and legalism after receiving the Holy Spirit. But he did not lose salvation. We know that because Jesus said he and the other apostles would sit on the 12 thrones.

 

[kennethcadwell]

this is why no one can discuss anything with you. You say one thing, then when confronted you backtrack, and make every excuse in the book to make yourself look right.

You use this passage to prove one can fall away (lose salvation)
This passage quite clearly says if you FALL away, you can never be renews to repentnance.
This it clearly states, if you lost your repentance, it can not be renewed (only one try)

Good luck with your works..

That scripture does not say you only have one chance at repentance.
The context is saying that they love their sin more than they love the Lord, therefore in order to bring them back to repent of their sins is impossible because they do not want to give up the sins, or they do as some do today and justify it and say it is acceptable. Like for example some churches that are making gay relationships acceptable, even marrying them.

They feel they do not need to repent do to false teaching that they can stay living that way, or they can sin all they want and stay saved.

 

[SoulWeaver]

Hebrews 6:4-6

For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.

Notice here it says they shared in receiving the Holy Spirit, and yet when they fell back to sin they could not be brought back to repent of them. They stayed lost, with no salvation.

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
The people who fall off (not backslide but fall off) are not the sheep... thats what 1 John says... And further in the passage you quoted, it is confirmed about these people:
Hebrews 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
They were offered the free gift, but they did not truly embrace it. Furthermore, as eternally-gratefull said, it is heavily in context of going back to religion instead of grace and thus trampling grace.

Hebrews 3:12-14

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God. But exhort one another every day, as long as it is called “today,” that none of you may be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end.

This one here shows that they are partakers in Christ, and only stay that way if they continue to hold to that faith in Him and His teachings.

Yes, the sheep will stay on course. And the emphasis on FAITH. True faith produces good works. Dead faith will not produce its witness because there is no faith and no root to the branch.

hardened by the deceitfulness of sin

You give material here for a really interesting study. As they cannot restored, it seems to be the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Kind of like pharisees did, hearts got so hardened that there was no return... Maybe there is a connection?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

I disagree with this interpretation, that story shows us how Jesus gathers His sheep and His love for us. It nowhere shows that some sheep remained lost and ungathered, which would support what you say.
There are promises in the Old Testament that He would gather His. Why does it say that the Shepherd "loses none"? It contradicts the Scripture to believe that His salvation can be lost, because it contradicts that God loses none, and that "no one will snatch us out of His hand" (but yet we somehow can be dropped out of His hand).
A sheep can backslide, like Peter did, and he repented and continued serving Jesus. He even backslided in hypocrisy and legalism after receiving the Holy Spirit. But he did not lose salvation. We know that because Jesus said he and the other apostles would sit on the 12 thrones.

Matthew 18:12
“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying?

They think this man who went to look for his sheep evidently is more moral than God. God will not leave the million sheep he has in his hold. and go to find the one who has gotten lost and walked away.

Even more rediculous is the fact that he may not be able to find that lost sheep, or that the sheep, even though they KNOW HIS VOICE, would not willingly follow after him when he finds them.

 

[dcontroversal]

This right here on what you are saying shows that you read and listen to the word, but you do not hear the word.
For if you hear the word you would be a doer of the word as well.
The parable of the lost sheep for example that our Lord Jesus gave. He said a lost sheep, one of His goes astray and gets lost. He is not saying a unbeliever gets lost, because a unbeliever is already and has always been lost. He is saying one who is in the fold, a believer gets lost by falling away to sin. He leaves the flock of the other 99 who are in a saved state headed to salvation to go after the one who has lost their way to salvation. He goes to lead them back to the flock through repentance. If the lost sheep does not repent, they stay lost from that road to salvation.

He gave this to us for an example as He tells us if one of our congregation goes astray, we are called to go after them and bring them back in repentance. It then now falls on them after you have come to them and ministered to them to repent of their sin and turn back to the Lord.
Also by what you said it still shows that you don't understand the context of willful sin the bible speaks of since you want to make all sin willful sin. The willful sin the bible talks about is the unrepented sin that controls one life to where they obey it on a every day basis.
Example: A person who is gay says that they have faith in the Lord, but continue to walk in that sin without repenting and turning away from it. There is no salvation for those who do this.
And this applies to any sin; If you continue to lie everyday, or commit sexual immorality everyday, and so on without repenting of it and turning from doing these things then there is no salvation. This also applies to if believe in the Lord, and then turn back away from Him to go back to these sins.

When you repent of sins the first initial time, it only covers past and present sins. It does not cover future sins, future sins as the scriptures make clear still have to be asked forgiveness of and repented of.

Revelation 3:4 show how only a small group of the church in Sardis did not soil ( defile ) themselves with sin again, and were found worthy to be dressed in white and walk with Jesus.

1 Timothy 5:22, Paul warns Timothy that he can get spiritually defiled through sin again. You can not get defiled if your future sins are previously pre-forgiven.

Then James in his 1st chapter gives believers a warning about giving into your desires;

but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown,gives birth to death. Don't be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)

There are even more scriptures that show that future sins are not automatically forgiven, and that a believer can become defiled with sin again. The biggest one is this;

Hebrews 10:26-31
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.



If you are forgiven of past, present, and future sins then it would not matter if you keep sinning willfully after accepting Christ as your Lord and Savior, for they would be forgiven anyway. But this scripture says no, that you will still face judgment and a place in the lake of fire.

Context is a word that alludes you Kenneth....go study Hebrews 10 again and put it in context and my point stands....Hebrews also states (if you take out of context) that it is IMPOSSIBLE to be brought back into the old which is what you and your cronies teach and then you flip the coin to use the parable of the LOST SHEEP so which is it.....you can loose it and get it back or you loose it and it is lost forever? and my question remains...HOW many times have you lost it by willful sin and then regained it?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

That scripture does not say you only have one chance at repentance.
The context is saying that they love their sin more than they love the Lord, therefore in order to bring them back to repent of their sins is impossible because they do not want to give up the sins, or they do as some do today and justify it and say it is acceptable. Like for example some churches that are making gay relationships acceptable, even marrying them.

They feel they do not need to repent do to false teaching that they can stay living that way, or they can sin all they want and stay saved.

It does not say this at all. How can you get this out of that passage? No where in the passage is it even mentioning the love of sin. Talk about adding to the word of God.

The passage says, if they fall away, it is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance. plan and simple. If you can fall away, your done.

It is saying Christ did not pay for the sin which caused them to fall away, and the only way he can be restored, is for Christ to return and die all over again (which is what going back to the law is saying, Jesus death was not sufficient, we must return to sacrifice and burnt offering) Which puts Christ to shame. and is what his argument is.