Why forever torment in Hell?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Crustyone

Senior Member
Mar 15, 2015
667
36
28
#1
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:

Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

And the last two verses in Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:23-24 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

I realize that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and those with the mark of the beast are to be seemingly tortured forever, but the people in Isaiah don't see them, only dead bodies. I don't see how churches can preach a permanent torment, along with the fact that God has said that he would punish us as we deserved. I realize there is Psalms 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. There is also Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I take these to only mean that they will be eternally dead, never to live again, not that they will suffer eternal torment. The eternal destruction seems to be their eternal punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which both say: They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” And also Hebrews 10:29 indicate that there will be differing punishments for evil people. Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? How does religion propose to punish some more than others if they are all to suffer torment forever? [All verses from the New International Version (NIV) bible]
 

oldethennew

Senior Member
Feb 28, 2016
8,908
1,510
113
#2
MAL. 4:3.
And you shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day
that I shall do this, saith The LORD of Hosts.

if you throw a 'human' into a fire, they are 'burned-up' -
JUDE 1:12-13.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear:
clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withers, without fruit,
twice dead, plucked up by the roots;
Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved
the blackness of darkness for ever.

twice dead are the 'second-death', means exactly what it says - and as the Scripture says,
'the dead don't know anything' - there are those who are 'tormented' FOREVER, but this is
reserved for the 'exclusive-wicked' - it is a very 'complex study' -
the scriptures that we posted are just the basics, teaching us that we are not to, or won't,
accept 'every wind of doctrine'...
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,092
834
113
#3
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:

Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

Good day Crustyone!

The error is that, you interpret "he should pay back all he owed" as though the debt is payable. However, regarding sin it is written, "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin." Therefore, those who die without the righteous blood of Christ covering their sins, their debt can never be paid. It's eternal!

I realize that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and those with the mark of the beast are to be seemingly tortured forever, but the people in Isaiah don't see them, only dead bodies.
Regarding the above, the clue is found right in your post "dead bodies," which has nothing to do with the spirit after the death of the body. After the body dies, the spirit departs and goes to one of two places. At the time of death for those in Christ, the spirit departs and goes to be in the presence of the Lord. For scripture states that "to be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord. And to be absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord." In opposition, those who die in their sins, their spirit departs and goes down into Sheol/Hades to begin their punishment in torment in flame. (See the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke 16:19-31).

I don't see how churches can preach a permanent torment, along with the fact that God has said that he would punish us as we deserved.
The above is not inferring that there is an end to punishment, but what we deserve as being sinners. If a person had just one sin, it would be against God, for as king David proclaimed to God after he committed adultery and murder, "against you alone have I sinned." Every and all sin is against God and that is the reason for the steep penalty.


I realize there is Psalms 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. There is also Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I take these to only mean that they will be eternally dead, never to live again, not that they will suffer eternal torment. The eternal destruction seems to be their eternal punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

"Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
The scripture that you provided answers your own question. You have the word "aionios" translated as "eternal" being used to describe the state of the afterlife for both the wicked and the righteous. Therefore, since we know that eternal life is on-going existence in the kingdom of God and the joy of the Lord, then the eternal punishment must be on-gong existence in separation from God in the lake of fire. You can't have the word mean on-gong existence for one and then temporary or non-existence for the other. The word would have to carry the same meaning of on-going existence for both groups, with the accompanying words life and punishment which describe the state of their on-going existence.

I would advise coming out from under the teachings of annihilationist, because God's word nowhere infers the death of the wicked as being temporary or them being burned up. In fact, scripture states that both the righteous and the wicked will receive resurrected bodies. The righteous will be raised immortal, glorified and in power, while the wicked will receive a resurrected body mete for their punishment, i.e. a body that can't be destroyed by the flames of the lake of fire. This is supported by the scripture which says, "the smoke of their torment will rise up forever and ever" and "they shall have no rest day or night." Needless to say, one must be existing in order for their smoke to rise up forever and ever. Likewise, one must be existing, conscious and aware, in order to experience having no rest day or night.



Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which both say: They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” And also Hebrews 10:29 indicate that there will be differing punishments for evil people. Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? How does religion propose to punish some more than others if they are all to suffer torment forever? [All verses from the New International Version (NIV) bible]
All that you quoted above does not infer an end to their punishment, but a harsher one.

"In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side.

So he cried out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue. For I am in agony in this fire.’

But Abraham answered, ‘Child, remember that during your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things. But now he is comforted here, while you are left to suffer."

Anyone who interprets the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, have distorted the word of God, ignoring the plain meaning of the scripture.
 
Dec 9, 2011
10,991
822
113
#4
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:

Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

And the last two verses in Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:23-24 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

I realize that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and those with the mark of the beast are to be seemingly tortured forever, but the people in Isaiah don't see them, only dead bodies. I don't see how churches can preach a permanent torment, along with the fact that God has said that he would punish us as we deserved. I realize there is Psalms 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. There is also Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I take these to only mean that they will be eternally dead, never to live again, not that they will suffer eternal torment. The eternal destruction seems to be their eternal punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which both say: They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” And also Hebrews 10:29 indicate that there will be differing punishments for evil people. Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? How does religion propose to punish some more than others if they are all to suffer torment forever? [All verses from the New International Version (NIV) bible]
Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”
Since a person can't be perfect of their Own strength they would need GOD to help them.They would Never be able to pay It back meaning Eternal torment.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,079
827
113
#6
The error is that, you interpret "he should pay back all he owed" as though the debt is payable. However, regarding sin it is written, "unless there is a shedding of blood, there is no forgiveness of sin." Therefore, those who die without the righteous blood of Christ covering their sins, their debt can never be paid. It's eternal!
Those who do not receive a new born again spirit when they die their corrupted spirit return to that father who gave it and the corrupted flesh return to the spiritless lifeless dust it was formed from of. They will not rise to new life on the last day and receive the promise. But will be separated from God forever and ever without end.
 

LarryH

New member
May 12, 2019
1
0
1
#7
Those who do not receive a new born again spirit when they die their corrupted spirit return to that father who gave it and the corrupted flesh return to the spiritless lifeless dust it was formed from of. They will not rise to new life on the last day and receive the promise. But will be separated from God forever and ever without end.
Those who do not receive a new born again spirit when they die their corrupted spirit return to that father who gave it and the corrupted flesh return to the spiritless lifeless dust it was formed from of. They will not rise to new life on the last day and receive the promise. But will be separated from God forever and ever without end.
Greetings

The question is why has the word hell taken out of most translation of the bible. It should never have been there in the first place.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
8,953
4,864
113
73
#8
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:

Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

And the last two verses in Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:23-24 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

I realize that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and those with the mark of the beast are to be seemingly tortured forever, but the people in Isaiah don't see them, only dead bodies. I don't see how churches can preach a permanent torment, along with the fact that God has said that he would punish us as we deserved. I realize there is Psalms 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. There is also Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I take these to only mean that they will be eternally dead, never to live again, not that they will suffer eternal torment. The eternal destruction seems to be their eternal punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which both say: They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” And also Hebrews 10:29 indicate that there will be differing punishments for evil people. Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? How does religion propose to punish some more than others if they are all to suffer torment forever? [All verses from the New International Version (NIV) bible]
The lake of fire is a place of destruction, though for demons torment.
How this will work, is in the Lords hands and I trust Him.

My question would be how many who claim to know Jesus walk with Him in His ways today?
Yes, Dante's version of hell is just a fable. Romans 6:23 says "The wages of sin is death." The lake of fire will completely annihilate sinners, even the demons when God is done with them (Ezekiel 28:18, 19). Like the poster said above, we cannot judge just who is following Christ in this life. You need to settle down and start trusting God. He loves your family more than you do. :cool:
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,092
834
113
#9
Greetings

The question is why has the word hell taken out of most translation of the bible. It should never have been there in the first place.
There are three words in scripture translated as Hell:

Tartarus/Tartaroo = Used once in 2 Pet.2:4 regarding the location of the angels who sinned, which is also under the earth. Both Peter and Jude refer to these, which I believe is referring to those angels, the son's of God, who took wives and had offspring.

Sheol/Hades = The realm of the departed spirits of the unrighteous dead located in the subterranean parts of the earth, which is where the rich man went and will remain until the great white throne judgment.

Gehenna = Also called, the Lake of Fire, everlasting fire and the second death. This is the final place of punishment for those who die in their sins, the location of which is never mentioned.

Personally, I believe that the proper name should be used when referring to either Hades or Gehenna.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,079
827
113
#10
Greetings

The question is why has the word hell taken out of most translation of the bible. It should never have been there in the first place.
If it is interpreted by comparing it self to itself as to the spiritual understanding it has its place a living hell we suffer. An experience of Cain a restless wanderer (no gospel rest) suffering in the belly of the Whale a living hell (tribulation) .
 
Feb 7, 2017
339
41
28
#11
So that all may see that, even in eternal torment, no one is able to change without receiving Christ in the heart.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,092
834
113
#12
So that all may see that, even in eternal torment, no one is able to change without receiving Christ in the heart.
Just fyi, there is no offer of salvation once an individual has died in their sins. Furthermore, those who end up in the lake of fire, will have already stood before God at the great white throne judgment and therefore there would be no need to have faith.

Today is the day of salvation. Seek the Lord while He may be found, i.e. while you're still alive, because once a person dies in their sins, God's grace, mercy and love are no longer in operation. Once a person dies in their sins, their record is sealed.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,813
827
113
#13
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:

Matthew 18:32-35
32 “Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. 33 Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’ 34 In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.
35 “This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother or sister from your heart.”

And the last two verses in Isaiah:

Isaiah 66:23-24 23 From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, all mankind will come and bow down before me,” says the Lord. 24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

I realize that Satan, the false prophet, the beast and those with the mark of the beast are to be seemingly tortured forever, but the people in Isaiah don't see them, only dead bodies. I don't see how churches can preach a permanent torment, along with the fact that God has said that he would punish us as we deserved. I realize there is Psalms 81:15 Those who hate the Lord would cringe before him, and their punishment would last forever. There is also Matthew 25:46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” I take these to only mean that they will be eternally dead, never to live again, not that they will suffer eternal torment. The eternal destruction seems to be their eternal punishment. 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Mark 12:40 and Luke 20:47 which both say: They devour widows’ houses and for a show make lengthy prayers. These men will be punished most severely.” And also Hebrews 10:29 indicate that there will be differing punishments for evil people. Hebrews 10:29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? How does religion propose to punish some more than others if they are all to suffer torment forever? [All verses from the New International Version (NIV) bible]
I agree with you.
One believer said with great anger, if God did not punish people with eternal torment,
atheists would have no reason to come to faith.

A lot of believers live in terror and not love. But if you are very anxious, religion can be
very comforting, but it is not knowing Jesus. Gods two greatest commandments,

27 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength
and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Luke 10

Loving God, and loving others is the Kingdom of heaven. Hell is a place of destruction of life that
is disfunctional and does not work. This is not true of the beast, his prophet and those who follow
him, who will be tormented for all eternity.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,465
1,765
113
#15
I am wondering, why do most religions tell us that evil people are tormented in Hell (Lake of Fire) forever? From what I have found in the last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant and the last two verses of Isaiah, evil people seem only to be allowed to live in Hell for only long enough to pay for their sins and then they die. The last four verses of the Unmerciful Servant in Matthew says:
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)


The dreadfulness and seriousness of the matter should not be diluted with annihilationism.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
8,953
4,864
113
73
#16
And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
(Rev 14:9-11)


The dreadfulness and seriousness of the matter should not be diluted with annihilationism.
God’s Memorials

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:

Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies. Anyway, hades is finally tossed into the lake of fire. You can't do that with a dwelling place.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.

When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,813
827
113
#17
Let us be honest about judgement. We do not understand it quite.
What is justice? Who are innocent and who are guilty? What is proportionate?

A child, born, less than one year old dies. Are they spiritually aware? Are they saved?
Paul argued they were made holy through the believing parent. So is their school in
heaven?

On the other side, eternal torment for babies who are lost? Does not sound just or proportionate.
So an eternal sleep, that which was is now at rest. Is the idea of destruction here wrong?

What is mans true rebellion, other than being born separate from God, are they not lost in slavery to
sin and too dysfunctional to cope? Paul said he was counted as acting in ignorance and unbelief.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy
because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1

Those who take the mark of the beast are not innocent or ignorant of rebelling against God, like the
angels who rebelled and followed satan. For them the lake of fire is eternal torment, and God declares

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who
worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev 14

For this to be true, destruction is the alternative for the rest.
 
Apr 29, 2019
46
36
18
#18
God’s Memorials

Rev. 14:9-11 “And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.”

Some things are preserved in God's memory that is just as good as having them on file or archived digitally. His recall is 100%. Here is a case for something in God's memory:

Mark 9:47, 48 "And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire: Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched." Come on, a maggot that never dies. What is that?

Be aware that Sheol and Hades simply refers to the grave. Our doctrine of a dwelling place of the dead is inserted into Strong's Concordance as a reference. The reference in Revelation where they are tormented day and night forever, their smoke ascending forever could refer to something captured on film, therefore forever preserved. The reference in Mark 9:44: "Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched" I believe is another example of that. It just does not make sense of a maggot that never dies. Anyway, hades is finally tossed into the lake of fire. You can't do that with a dwelling place.

All said, as I stated before all scripture has to fit together, in what we teach, or none of it is valid. Some things were presented in parables with figurative speech. Some things maybe we don't quite understand yet. God will not reveal some things until He is ready for us to know. I feel Lazarus and the rich man is a parable despite the proper names.

When God is finished with purging the universe of evil: all the demons and evil people will be completely destroyed.

Eze. 28:14: "Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire." This establishes identity.

Eze. 28:18: "Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee."

Eze. 28:19: "All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more." This tells of the fate of Satan. Which is also the fate of those that reject the Holy Spirit anointing by the end of the judgement period.
You wanna talk about twisting the meaning of words? Sheesh!

no rest day nor night = memorial.... Okkayyy.

Sheol and Hades = grave? okayy... Dont fear those who can take you to the grave, but rather fear Him who can take you to the grave.

Makes sense

You dont have to like the doctrine of hell, but its there in the New Testament and we just got to deal with it.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
27,465
1,765
113
#19
Let us be honest about judgement. We do not understand it quite.
What is justice? Who are innocent and who are guilty? What is proportionate?

A child, born, less than one year old dies. Are they spiritually aware? Are they saved?
Paul argued they were made holy through the believing parent. So is their school in
heaven?

On the other side, eternal torment for babies who are lost? Does not sound just or proportionate.
So an eternal sleep, that which was is now at rest. Is the idea of destruction here wrong?

What is mans true rebellion, other than being born separate from God, are they not lost in slavery to
sin and too dysfunctional to cope? Paul said he was counted as acting in ignorance and unbelief.

13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy
because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.
1 Tim 1

Those who take the mark of the beast are not innocent or ignorant of rebelling against God, like the
angels who rebelled and followed satan. For them the lake of fire is eternal torment, and God declares

11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who
worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."
Rev 14

For this to be true, destruction is the alternative for the rest.
No man has attained to the knowledge of God through human reason. It takes God's Word to reveal the things of the spiritual realm including hell. Human reason has sent many off on false paths. God says eternal torment...I'm not going to reason it or dilute it to soften the blow. If we want to add reason on par with Scripture, then we ought to go back to Rome.
 

FollowHisSteps

Well-known member
Feb 15, 2019
2,813
827
113
#20
No man has attained to the knowledge of God through human reason. It takes God's Word to reveal the things of the spiritual realm including hell. Human reason has sent many off on false paths. God says eternal torment...I'm not going to reason it or dilute it to soften the blow. If we want to add reason on par with Scripture, then we ought to go back to Rome.
he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
Luke 3:17

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire
matt 3:10

collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned
matt 13:30

As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire
matt 13:40

such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned
John 15:6

5 examples of the lost being taken, and burnt up, not tormented eternally.
This is not human reason, this is scripture.

Other examples are weeping and nashing of teeth, awaiting destruction, and
being thrown into the eternal fire. Our experience of fire is it burns things up
and destroys them. So every mention of being thrown into the fire can be taken
as meaning this, unless otherwise stated.