Why have the Sign Gifts Ended

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Jan 12, 2019
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I really don't know why these arbitrary distinctions and categories appeal to you. In Acts 28:23, the 'kingdom of God' was still a valid topic to be preached.


And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.


And that was Paul doing that. Paul wrote that if anyone preach any other Gospel, let him be accursed. Hyperdispensationalists have these categories they put different scriptures in, a filter through which they interpret the scripture. And there is no reason to think the filter is inspired.
https://forwhatsaiththescriptures.org/2015/06/24/kingdom-of-god-kingdom-of-heaven/
 
S

Scribe

Guest
The word translated 'infirmity' means weakness, but it also refers to sicknesses and such-- maybe injuries also...I'm not 100% sure about that. In Galatians 4, we read,

12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.
13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.
14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.
15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

Do you think the Lazarus' infirmity that lead to his death was a sickness or persecution? Does James 5 tell persecuted saints to call for the elders of the church to anoint them?
There is no reason to go anywhere else but the immediate context to understand what Paul was saying about the kind of infirmities he would glory in30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
It is impossible to make verse 5 not mean the same as verse 30. And in verse 30 he just listed the infirmities he was talking about.

It is undeniable. No question. He is talking about glorying in the infirmities caused by the list he gave up to verse 30. No eye disease. Maybe a black eye, or two. Eye swole shut from a rock. I'll concede to that.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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The healing was guaranteed to happen then because the Holy Spirit performed that healing as a sign to the nation Israel

Israel as a nation has been lame from birth and rejected the covenant, and they just killed their Messiah.

But the good news, or the gospel that Peter preached to Israel is this, if they were to repent for all those sins, they can look forward to entering the promised kingdom when Jesus returns for them in the 2nd coming, jumping and with great joy, just like this lame man they just witnessed who was also lame from birth.

A beautiful sign for the nation Israel and fits well with what Peter would later preached to Israel in Acts 3:19-21.
I would strongly encourage you to do some reading in basic logic. You have made a massive and unwarranted leap here, taking statements made after the fact as foundational to the ability. In other words, you have it backwards. God's intent was to use that particular healing as a sign to Israel, so the healing had nothing whatsoever to do with Peter having an ability to heal at will, or to heal everyone who needed healing, or being able to "guarantee" that all would be healed.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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There is no reason to go anywhere else but the immediate context to understand what Paul was saying about the kind of infirmities he would glory in30If I must needs glory, I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities.
5Of such an one will I glory: yet of myself I will not glory, but in mine infirmities.
It is impossible to make verse 5 not mean the same as verse 30. And in verse 30 he just listed the infirmities he was talking about.

It is undeniable. No question. He is talking about glorying in the infirmities caused by the list he gave up to verse 30. No eye disease. Maybe a black eye, or two. Eye swole shut from a rock. I'll concede to that.
If there is no reason to go anywhere but the immediate context, why did you start posting about II Corinthians? I was posting about Galatians.
 
S

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If there is no reason to go anywhere but the immediate context, why did you start posting about II Corinthians? I was posting about Galatians.
I have heard so many try to claim that his thorn in the flesh was a chronic eye disease based on Gal 4. I don't see it. (no pun intended)
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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If you don't want to see that as a sign, that is your choice.
I have the same question. Your answer to presidente is just silly. You made an assertion regarding something in Scripture; failure to support it with an actual quotation from Scripture when requested is tantamount to admitting that it's not actually true.
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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I have heard so many try to claim that his thorn in the flesh was a chronic eye disease based on Gal 4. I don't see it. (no pun intended)
That was not the point I was making. Do you think Galatians 4 was not talking about a physical ailment?
 

presidente

Senior Member
May 29, 2013
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You can look at parallel passages in Mark and Matthew. Matthew often uses 'kingdom of heaven'. You can find cases where the same teaching is taught, but Matthew uses 'kingdom of heaven' instead of 'kingdom of God.'

Some of the Jews did not like to use the divine name or refer directly to God, and took to using euphamistic references to God.

A couple of examples:

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mark 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
 
Jan 12, 2019
7,497
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You can look at parallel passages in Mark and Matthew. Matthew often uses 'kingdom of heaven'. You can find cases where the same teaching is taught, but Matthew uses 'kingdom of heaven' instead of 'kingdom of God.'

Some of the Jews did not like to use the divine name or refer directly to God, and took to using euphamistic references to God.

A couple of examples:

Mark 4:11
And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:

Matthew 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Matthew 13:24
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:

Mark 4:26
And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;
Yes that link talks about both terms and explain how to understand them
 
Jan 12, 2019
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I have the same question. Your answer to presidente is just silly. You made an assertion regarding something in Scripture; failure to support it with an actual quotation from Scripture when requested is tantamount to admitting that it's not actually true.
There will of course be no actual quotation that says "This healing is a sign to National Israel". As I said, you have to read what Peter preached in Acts 3, after that healing, to understand why that is.

But if one is determined not to accept that, best to just agree to disagree.
 
S

Scribe

Guest
That was not the point I was making. Do you think Galatians 4 was not talking about a physical ailment?
Maybe it was, but it could very well have been eyes swollen from beatings or stoning.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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There will of course be no actual quotation that says "This healing is a sign to National Israel". As I said, you have to read what Peter preached in Acts 3, after that healing, to understand why that is.
Ah... so the text doesn't say that, but if you read it, you'll see that it does.

Um, no; that's called eisegesis.

But if one is determined not to accept that, best to just agree to disagree.
But if one is determined to give others no opportunity to process one's ideas, and assume the worst about them, best to just not bother.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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Ah... so the text doesn't say that, but if you read it, you'll see that it does.

Um, no; that's called eisegesis.


But if one is determined to give others no opportunity to process one's ideas, and assume the worst about them, best to just not bother.
I am not assuming anything, I stated my interpretation of Acts 3, you disagree, I leave it as that.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I am not assuming anything, I stated my interpretation of Acts 3, you disagree, I leave it as that.
I didn't disagree; I asked for clarity. You seem to have a chip on your shoulder.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
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I already clarified, but you disagreed in your reply, so we are agreeing to disagree

https://christianchat.com/threads/why-have-the-sign-gifts-ended.196068/post-4463810
You need to read more carefully as well.

I did not disagree with your assertion that the healing was a sign to Israel; I later questioned it though.

I did disagree with your assertion that healing was ever "guaranteed".

So we are not "agreeing to disagree" at all. Rather, you are avoiding culpability for claiming that Scripture says something that it does not say.
 

awelight

Active member
Aug 10, 2020
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Where do I say I can heal people?

What is your point? That you don't believe God heals today and that you don't think God healed through Paul or Timothy?

Paul had some kind of infirmity that caused him to spend time among the Galatians, and they would have given him their own eyes. So maybe he had an eye problem. This was probably around Acts 14, since some of those churches were in the province of Galatia. Yet Paul and Barnabas were doing signs among the Gentiles that they reported in Acts 15. In Acts 16, they took the decision of the council to various places including Galatia, and Paul went on to do extraordinary miracles and to heal all who were brought to him on an island after this ailment.

Do you think the apostles could heal and do miracles automatically at will like Superman using his X-Ray vision? If so, why did Paul have an infirmity early in his ministry, and do great miracles after this point? Why did the twelve pray for God to stretch forth His hand to do heal and to do signs and wonders in Acts 4 if they could do them completely at will?
I think both of you have some valid points here. "Budman" seems to be going after the idiots like Benny Hinn and others who rip-off people everyday. I was involved, many years ago, with the transportation of the "disabled" going to a Benny Hinn farce in Phoenix, AZ. I felt so sorry for these people. They had hopes of a better future because they wanted to believe that this charlatan would heal them. I stood and shook my head at the proceedings. Everyone went into the coliseum with various disabilities and everyone of them came out the same. Just a whole lot sadder and depressed. It is no wonder Benny Hinn travels with a motorcade of black SUV's, in his private Limo because I am sure that there are a few people who would like to do him harm.

As to your own observations, I agree that miracles, signs and wonders can only be performed at the will and power of God. God is working through the Apostles to accomplish his purpose, they have no real power of their own.