Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
1,481
113
I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. John 17:12...…………... You can not loose that which you never had
Keep in mind also the first half of the verse (which is saying something in particular in this chpt 17 context):

"When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]" (see fuller context)
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
5,096
932
113
Some 'salvation through faith alone' proponents teach about works of the law without even knowing.
Look at the following scenarios i don't know which you belong to.

1. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
The preacher gives me a list of sins that i now need to strive and abstain from; because grace is not a ticket to sin, i have to put an effort not to cheat, steal, commit idolatry, adultery, gluttony, pride e.t.c
At the end of the day, the preacher comforts me by saying we are only human and not perfect so we can once in a while fall into sin but we need to keep up our efforts to continue abstaining from sin.

2. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
I have to do nothing because it was all accomplished on the cross. The preacher says i'm human and sin is my nature but nothing to worry about because God has already forgiven me even for the sins that i will commit.

3. Love teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins- but i also believe that i'm commanded to love others. I understand that cheating, lying, stealing, coveting, pride, adultery, gluttony is being disobedient to the command because committing all that is grieving the people around me. But i also know that even if i fall into any of these i can ask for forgiveness from the Lord because i also forgive those around me when they trespass against me.

Scenario 1 & 3 are work based. As much as some may package it into faith alone, it is seriously work based and it doesn't sound right at all. Scenario 2 just doesn't sound right at all. Personally, i go with scenario 3.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
1,481
113
^ EDIT: Forgot to add another thing I wanted to point out.

The words (in that verse ^ [in my last post]) "I was" and "was keeping" are in the "Imperfect Tense" :


Imperfect Tense -

"The name of the new tense, "imperfect", comes from the Latin imperfectus meaning incomplete. This tense is used to describe a continuing, repeated or uncompleted action in the past, i.e., something that "used to happen", "was happening", or "kept happening": "I used to speak", "I was speaking", "I kept speaking [...]The time is almost always in the past and it only occurs in the indicative mood"


https://biblehub.com/text/john/17-12.htm

Again, see the rest of the context (chpt) for how that [idea] "fits" in with the whole of it...

"When I was [imperfect] with them, I was keeping [imperfect] them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]"
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Keep in mind also the first half of the verse (which is saying something in particular in this chpt 17 context):

"When I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name, which You have given Me. [...]" (see fuller context)
Sorry, not sure what point you are trying to make.

Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
Some 'salvation through faith alone' proponents teach about works of the law without even knowing.
Look at the following scenarios i don't know which you belong to.

1. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
The preacher gives me a list of sins that i now need to strive and abstain from; because grace is not a ticket to sin, i have to put an effort not to cheat, steal, commit idolatry, adultery, gluttony, pride e.t.c
At the end of the day, the preacher comforts me by saying we are only human and not perfect so we can once in a while fall into sin but we need to keep up our efforts to continue abstaining from sin.

2. Faith teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins.
I have to do nothing because it was all accomplished on the cross. The preacher says i'm human and sin is my nature but nothing to worry about because God has already forgiven me even for the sins that i will commit.

3. Love teaching
I'm a sinner, the gospel is preached to me and i accept. i now believe that Jesus is Lord and died for my sins- but i also believe that i'm commanded to love others. I understand that cheating, lying, stealing, coveting, pride, adultery, gluttony is being disobedient to the command because committing all that is grieving the people around me. But i also know that even if i fall into any of these i can ask for forgiveness from the Lord because i also forgive those around me when they trespass against me.

Scenario 1 & 3 are work based. As much as some may package it into faith alone, it is seriously work based and it doesn't sound right at all. Scenario 2 just doesn't sound right at all. Personally, i go with scenario 3.
Many years I attended a Baptist church that taught #2. good name for it (coincidence?;))

Now I find it cringeworthy, have only myself to blame for reading what I believed, instead of believing what I read from scripture.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
113
Why would anyone do works if they didn't have faith? That doesn't make any sense.
Lots of people do good works without faith.

If you look at the seperation of the sheep and goats.

There are many who do the works of the sheep but do not have faith.
They do works out of love, meet the needs of others but do not have faith in Jesus.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
113
Yep faith produce good work

Work is the fruit of faith

Good work not produce salvation but salvation produce good work
That I agree with.

Can I just ask though?

I think the fruit of the Holy Spirit in us is what leads us into good works and increases the good works and takes us to a deeper level.

By that I mean we grow more.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
113
Have you looked into the Hebrew as to the word translated “filthy rags?”
It’s an interesting term and implies “death” more so than filth. A better translation is that our works/ deeds ( human effort) are considered “dead works” by God.

But really what are filthy rags or polluted garments. I mean people wore the same clothes every day, most people wore filthy garments. The word for filthy is ‘idim and rags isbagad in Hebrew. The word for rags bagad means a covering hence some sort of garment. But in its Semitic root, it is a covering of one’s treachery. The prophet is saying that all your righteous acts, your acts of justice and good are just deceit, a covering for your treachery. Not only that they are filthy or ‘idim. ‘Idim is a word for a cloth that is used when a woman menstruates. This harkens back to the beginning of the verse where the prophets says that the people are unclean. A woman menstruating was considered to be unclean. Menstruation occurs when the lining of the uterus thickens in preparation for pregnancy. If pregnancy does not occur, the lining is released in what is known as menstruation. The lining really serves no value if there is not reproduction to take place.

Copy and pasted.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
1,481
113
Sorry, not sure what point you are trying to make.

Holy Father, protect them by Your name, the name You gave Me, so that they may be one as We are one. 12While I was with them, I protected and preserved them by Your name, the name You gave Me. Not one of them has been lost, except the son of destruction, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.
My apologies. When you read the following, bear in mind the idea of "name" equaling a certain "authority" (Jesus, in His earthly ministry, was given the authority "to act in His Father's name" ['Your name'/'the name which you have given Me [perfect indicative active]']):


Here's how I see that:

John 17 -

"And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me [perfect indicative active], that they may be one as we are."


Philippians 2:9 - [v.8 speaking of His death, even the death of a Cross]

"9 Therefore God also highly exalted Him,
and granted to Him the name above every name,
10 that
at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."


Hebrews 2:8 -

"You have put in subjection all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing unsubject to him. But at present not yet do we see all things having been subjected to him."


[1Cor15:24 - "Then [sequentially] the end" (speaking of the end of the future MK age)]


Hope that helps you see my perspective. :)
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
If you believe your salvation can be lost how can you ever be sure of the motive/source of your good works?

Abiding is not for salvation, it is our relationship with Jesus who is the source of our Christian walk.
Jesus say if you A man not abide in me he is cast out ............into the fire/hell


John 15
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How you say abide not for salvation?
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
1,481
113
^ EDIT (to add to my last post):


John 17:6 -

"I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given [aorist] Me out of the world. They were Yours [imperfect indicative active], and to Me You gave them, and they have kept [perfect indicative active] Your word."


John 17:2 -

"As You gave Him authority over all flesh, so that all whom You have given Him [perfect indicative active], He may give to them eternal life."


John 12:32 - [pertaining to His death (the Cross) and following that point]

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all to Myself."
 
K

Karraster

Guest
My apologies. When you read the following, bear in mind the idea of "name" equaling a certain "authority" (Jesus, in His earthly ministry, was given the authority "to act in His Father's name" ['Your name'/'the name which you have given Me [perfect indicative active]']):


Here's how I see that:

John 17 -

"And I am no longer in the world, and yet they are themselves in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me [perfect indicative active], that they may be one as we are."


Philippians 2:9 - [v.8 speaking of His death, even the death of a Cross]

"9 Therefore God also highly exalted Him,
and granted to Him the name above every name,
10 that
at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in the heavens and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father."


Hebrews 2:8 -

"You have put in subjection all things under his feet. For in subjecting all things to him, He left nothing unsubject to him. But at present not yet do we see all things having been subjected to him."


[1Cor15:24 - "Then [sequentially] the end" (speaking of the end of the future MK age)]


Hope that helps you see my perspective. :)
With your emphasis on "name", in a practical sense what does that mean? Character? As in character of the Almighty? Subject to His name=subject to His character IOW?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
Jesus say if you A man not abide in me he is cast out ............into the fire/hell


John 15
6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

How you say abide not for salvation?
You need to read carefully.......and men gather them, and cast them into the fire.

Men do not cast people into lake of fire.

And secondly every time you see fire it does not mean the lake of fire... that is reading into the text something that is not there.
 
K

Karraster

Guest
You need to read carefully.......and men gather them, and cast them into the fire.

Men do not cast people into lake of fire.

And secondly every time you see fire it does not mean the lake of fire... that is reading into the text something that is not there.
he is cast forth as a branch is withered and men gather and burn.

I clearly see the illustration, because I have cleared land and that's what ya do. You get rid of what is not wanted. Cast it away, burn it.
 

DeighAnn

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
Jun 11, 2019
2,436
759
113
Lots of people do good works without faith.

If you look at the seperation of the sheep and goats.

There are many who do the works of the sheep but do not have faith.
They do works out of love, meet the needs of others but do not have faith in Jesus.
Its one of those circle things.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
he is cast forth as a branch is withered and men gather and burn.

I clearly see the illustration, because I have cleared land and that's what ya do.
All the "branches" in this parable are considered "clean". There are no unbelievers considered branches in the parable, and this isn't teaching loss of salvation

He talks about what He does, lifting up branches (verse 2) so they bear fruit and then what happens to those who do not abide at the hands of men verse 6.

Again audience relevance, He is teaching the apostles how to deal with those who fall into rebellion in time that is coming.

Men [not God] gather them and cast them into the fire".
This to connects with the instruction of the church assembly to remove a member for "the destruction of the flesh" (1 Cor. 5:5).
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
7,690
1,481
113
With your emphasis on "name", in a practical sense what does that mean? Character? As in character of the Almighty? Subject to His name=subject to His character IOW?
Well, I had said "bear in mind the idea of 'name' equaling a certain 'authority'" [I meant, "name = authority /authority to act in place of another"]


... so "the authority [/name] to act in place of the Father" (when Jesus was here, in His earthly ministry, He "acted" in that capacity... "not My will, but Thine be done" and "I come to do Thy will O God"... etc...)
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
8,246
3,988
113
Its one of those circle things.
Circular reasoning I suppose.

Many people over the years gone by and forward will do the same works of love that we do.

The same works we do as a result of faith and out of love.

We can't deny that.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
10,604
1,141
113
You need to read carefully.......and men gather them, and cast them into the fire.

Men do not cast people into lake of fire.

And secondly every time you see fire it does not mean the lake of fire... that is reading into the text something that is not there.
It is an analogy brother

Vine analog to Jesus
Branch analog to human

Fire analog to hell.