Why so much confusion about salvation?

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MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#21
The crux of the matter is one of the differences between Armenianism and Calvinism, point 5. Who is right?

Reformed/Calvinism
TULIP
1. Total depravity
2. Unconditional election
3. Limited atonement
4. Irresistible grace
5. Perserverance of the Saints

Armenianism
1. Free will or Human ability
2. Conditional election
3. Universal Redemption or General Atonement
4. The Holy Spirit can be Effectually Resisted
5. Falling from Grace
TULIP appears to be more Biblical.
1. all have sinned.
2. None seek the Lord
3. I came to save those that the Father gave Me.
4. God's grace conquers the sinner.
5. God gives us the strength and faith to persevere.

Armenianism 1. We are born slaves to sin
2. God's love is unconditional
3. doesn't acknowledge God's foreknowledge
4. One who is dead in his sins cannot raise the Spirit
5. No one will pluck them out of My hand
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#22
We do have to repent ;) Jesus told us to count the cost.
It also costs us everything in this world, we must forsake this world to receive eternal life. We must lose our lives to gain them and take up our cross and follow Christ
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
#23
All Christians will be saved because they are born again of the Holy Spirit.

We will all be judged for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. This judgment is not for salvation, but for rewards.

Salvation is a gift, given when a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ. A Christians salvation is NEVER in doubt.
Initial salvation is a gift...but entering the kingdom costs everything you are and have. God sees deeply into our souls and demands all.

You cannot be a disciple of the real Jesus unless you forsake all. Surely you have at least read about it.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
#24
It also costs us everything in this world, we must forsake this world to receive eternal life. We must lose our lives to gain them and take up our cross and follow Christ
Amen! You'd think more people would read what Jesus said...good post!
 
C

CandieM

Guest
#25
See ... I was under the impression that once you pray the Sinners Prayer and Christ comes into your heart, He changes your heart slowly, and through God's divine timing. While this is happening, the Spirit leads you to read the Bible and repent of what God expresses to be sinful, in His Word. If, during this process, you fade away or turn away or stop having any interest in reading His Word and actively allowing Christ to change your heart so that you may be welcomed into God's Kingdom, through Christ's sacrifice ... then you have technically "backslid" and risk your salvation. This is what I have gathered from other believers who have explained the Word to me, in their own words.

Is this true? I don't know. Feels true, sadly.

On a much more personal note, I notice that the demons I battle with play my P.T.S.D like a fiddle. My lack of safety and lack of feeling safe in this world, even in my own home, have caused me to feel disconnected from God because of how obsessed I am about how unsafe I feel and how badly I aim to feel safe through my own wrath. When I stand back and look at the person God wants me to be in order for me to be suitable to enter His Kingdom, compared to the person I really am, I feel defeated and hopeless, and that hopelessness leads to indifference, which makes me periodically forget that I am even a child of God. There are moments where He leads me back, through conviction, which is a sign of his grace and love, but I will always have the thought in the back of my head that maybe He will end up forgetting me because I am so wrapped up in my human life to the point that I had forgotten Him. ─but maybe that's just it; maybe He plants that seed into a true believers heart so that they will always keep coming back because they have felt the massive love of God, and somewhere in their hearts they will always realize that that Christ is the real life and all else that is living is not truly alive, but actually dead.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#26
Initial salvation is a gift...but entering the kingdom costs everything you are and have. God sees deeply into our souls and demands all.

You cannot be a disciple of the real Jesus unless you forsake all. Surely you have at least read about it.
Folks don't like to be reminded of that, in our day and age. They want all the blessing but they don't like the cost. That's why the prosperity preaches are raking in huge sums of money, they are tickling the ears of luke warm Christians
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#27
Initial salvation is a gift...but entering the kingdom costs everything you are and have. God sees deeply into our souls and demands all.
If salvation can be lost, then it's not salvation.

We are saved by faith in Christ, and not by works (Eph 2:8-9)

You cannot be a disciple of the real Jesus unless you forsake all. Surely you have at least read about it.
Please read the church epistles. They explain what God made available on the day of Pentecost.
 

shrume

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2017
2,193
463
83
#28
Folks don't like to be reminded of that, in our day and age. They want all the blessing but they don't like the cost. That's why the prosperity preaches are raking in huge sums of money, they are tickling the ears of luke warm Christians
Jesus Christ paid the cost for our salvation.
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#29
See ... I was under the impression that once you pray the Sinners Prayer and Christ comes into your heart, He changes your heart slowly, and through God's divine timing. While this is happening, the Spirit leads you to read the Bible and repent of what God expresses to be sinful, in His Word. If, during this process, you fade away or turn away or stop having any interest in reading His Word and actively allowing Christ to change your heart so that you may be welcomed into God's Kingdom, through Christ's sacrifice ... then you have technically "backslid" and risk your salvation. This is what I have gathered from other believers who have explained the Word to me, in their own words.

Is this true? I don't know. Feels true, sadly.

On a much more personal note, I notice that the demons I battle with play my P.T.S.D like a fiddle. My lack of safety and lack of feeling safe in this world, even in my own home, have caused me to feel disconnected from God because of how obsessed I am about how unsafe I feel and how badly I aim to feel safe through my own wrath. When I stand back and look at the person God wants me to be in order for me to be suitable to enter His Kingdom, compared to the person I really am, I feel defeated and hopeless, and that hopelessness leads to indifference, which makes me periodically forget that I am even a child of God. There are moments where He leads me back, through conviction, which is a sign of his grace and love, but I will always have the thought in the back of my head that maybe He will end up forgetting me because I am so wrapped up in my human life to the point that I had forgotten Him. ─but maybe that's just it; maybe He plants that seed into a true believers heart so that they will always keep coming back because they have felt the massive love of God, and somewhere in their hearts they will always realize that that Christ is the real life and all else that is living is not truly alive, but actually dead.
Candie, you are safe in the Lords hands. It's quite obvious He's doing the great work of sanctification in your life, sure it's painful but he will give you just enough strength and faith to run the race to the end. Then you will receive your reward.
It's obvious by what you have said that you're not of this world and God is transforming you into the image of His son.
The best thing we can do when we feel discouraged is to pray, God wants us to pour out our hearts to Him.
Keep your eyes on the prize, knowing that we don't suffer in vain
 

MarkWilliams

Active member
Jun 13, 2018
408
174
43
#30
Jesus Christ paid the cost for our salvation.
True, Jesus purchased our salvation but he demands everything from us in return, including our money, our family, our friends and every other thing you can think of. So salvation was given to us freely but we must give Him our lives in return
 

Endoscopy

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2017
4,028
399
83
#31
I believe most of us would agree that there is a great deal of confusion about salvation, even though God has made it very simple.

The primary reason for all this confusion is the enmity of Satan and his evil angels against God and against humanity. The Devil desires all human being to go to Hell, since he knows it was created for him and his angels.

There is really no need to be confused when we take the total Gospel message and simply believe it. When someone comes along with another gospel, we should ask them a few questions, to which all the answers are "Yes" (according to Scripture):

1. Did Christ die for the sins of the whole world?

2. Does God desire the salvation of all humanity?

3. Are repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ sufficient to be saved?

4. Is water baptism only for believers and is it a command to every Christian?

5. Does baptism signify that the sinner has died to self and sin, and is totally submitted to God?

6. Is eternal life God's gift to the one who believes?

7. Is the Holy Spirit God's gift to the one who believes?

8. Does salvation include the New Birth, which means that the individual is a new creature in Christ?

10. Are believers predestined and elected to be perfected and glorified?

11. Does that mean that Christians must forsake the ways of the world, and walk in the Spirit by faith?

12. Does salvation include justification, sanctification, and glorification, and are Christians kept by the power of God unto the completion of this salvation?
Short definition of salvation.
We are saved by grace through faith in Jesus.
End of discussion.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,864
8,404
113
#32
I think there is confusion because it seems too good to be true for salvation to be full and free- without us doing a thing. People want to know what the catch is. It is like someone giving you a multi-million dollar home, car, clothes, vacations, and telling you that you are not obligated to do a thing except take them. It’s unbelievable.
Well said.
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#33
Thank you, I have thought about this before your thread, I must admit. It did not occur as an epiphany to me tonight. I tend to be a ruminant (in more ways than one).
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#34
See ... I was under the impression that once you pray the Sinners Prayer and Christ comes into your heart, He changes your heart slowly, and through God's divine timing. While this is happening, the Spirit leads you to read the Bible and repent of what God expresses to be sinful, in His Word. If, during this process, you fade away or turn away or stop having any interest in reading His Word and actively allowing Christ to change your heart so that you may be welcomed into God's Kingdom, through Christ's sacrifice ... then you have technically "backslid" and risk your salvation. This is what I have gathered from other believers who have explained the Word to me, in their own words.

Is this true? I don't know. Feels true, sadly.

On a much more personal note, I notice that the demons I battle with play my P.T.S.D like a fiddle. My lack of safety and lack of feeling safe in this world, even in my own home, have caused me to feel disconnected from God because of how obsessed I am about how unsafe I feel and how badly I aim to feel safe through my own wrath. When I stand back and look at the person God wants me to be in order for me to be suitable to enter His Kingdom, compared to the person I really am, I feel defeated and hopeless, and that hopelessness leads to indifference, which makes me periodically forget that I am even a child of God. There are moments where He leads me back, through conviction, which is a sign of his grace and love, but I will always have the thought in the back of my head that maybe He will end up forgetting me because I am so wrapped up in my human life to the point that I had forgotten Him. ─but maybe that's just it; maybe He plants that seed into a true believers heart so that they will always keep coming back because they have felt the massive love of God, and somewhere in their hearts they will always realize that that Christ is the real life and all else that is living is not truly alive, but actually dead.
Perfect love casts out fear, and He loves you perfectly. He does not want you to be afraid that you are not “good enough” to go to Heaven. You’re not “good enough”, and you never will be! That’s where the rest in redemption comes, Christ is good enough and you are in HIM.

Please don’t be afraid. God doesn’t want you to be afraid of losing salvation. You might could lose Him, but He is perfect- the Good Shepherd. He CAN’T lose you.

I hope this makes sense.

He will never leave thee nor forsake thee.
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#35
Initial salvation is a gift...but entering the kingdom costs everything you are and have. God sees deeply into our souls and demands all.

You cannot be a disciple of the real Jesus unless you forsake all. Surely you have at least read about it.
A disciple is different from being saved. Not all saved people are disciples. Not all disciples are saved.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,827
15,561
113
#36
See ... I was under the impression that once you pray the Sinners Prayer and Christ comes into your heart, He changes your heart slowly, and through God's divine timing. While this is happening, the Spirit leads you to read the Bible and repent of what God expresses to be sinful, in His Word. If, during this process, you fade away or turn away or stop having any interest in reading His Word and actively allowing Christ to change your heart so that you may be welcomed into God's Kingdom, through Christ's sacrifice ... then you have technically "backslid" and risk your salvation. This is what I have gathered from other believers who have explained the Word to me, in their own words.

Is this true? I don't know. Feels true, sadly.

On a much more personal note, I notice that the demons I battle with play my P.T.S.D like a fiddle. My lack of safety and lack of feeling safe in this world, even in my own home, have caused me to feel disconnected from God because of how obsessed I am about how unsafe I feel and how badly I aim to feel safe through my own wrath. When I stand back and look at the person God wants me to be in order for me to be suitable to enter His Kingdom, compared to the person I really am, I feel defeated and hopeless, and that hopelessness leads to indifference, which makes me periodically forget that I am even a child of God. There are moments where He leads me back, through conviction, which is a sign of his grace and love, but I will always have the thought in the back of my head that maybe He will end up forgetting me because I am so wrapped up in my human life to the point that I had forgotten Him. ─but maybe that's just it; maybe He plants that seed into a true believers heart so that they will always keep coming back because they have felt the massive love of God, and somewhere in their hearts they will always realize that that Christ is the real life and all else that is living is not truly alive, but actually dead.
 

OneFaith

Senior Member
Sep 5, 2016
2,270
367
83
#37
Some people think you can go to heaven without obeying God. Ignorance truly is bliss, well at least until judgement day, when we will be judged according to our deeds. (Revelation 20:12).
 
L

LaVieEnRose

Guest
#38
Some people think you can go to heaven without obeying God. Ignorance truly is bliss, well at least until judgement day, when we will be judged according to our deeds. (Revelation 20:12).
I think there will be many surprises, wonderful surprises in store for everyone. It’s going to be amazing, that is for sure.
 

Tinkerbell725

Senior Member
Jul 19, 2014
4,151
1,126
113
Philippines Age 40
#39
True, Jesus purchased our salvation but he demands everything from us in return, including our money, our family, our friends and every other thing you can think of. So salvation was given to us freely but we must give Him our lives in return
God does not force us anything. Why would he need to give His life for us if He is a tyrant God? It is because we are stupid and cannot see the truth. It is not that we must glorify Him out of duty. And as if we have anything to offer to Him when even our lives does not belong to us. We belong to Him originally. He gave His life for us so we can realize that He is good and great, merciful and holy and it is our joy and passion to glorify him and not just because we have to because He saved us.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,864
8,404
113
#40
Some people think you can go to heaven without obeying God.
Obedience to the Gospel is obeying God.
Ignorance truly is bliss, well at least until judgement day, when we will be judged according to our deeds. (Revelation 20:12).
You have taken a verse which applies to the unsaved and applied it to the saved. That simply will not fly.

THIS IS THE RESURRECTION UNTO DAMNATION
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.