Why so much confusion about salvation?

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SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
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Some people think you can go to heaven without obeying God. Ignorance truly is bliss, well at least until judgement day, when we will be judged according to our deeds. (Revelation 20:12).
Ignorance isn't bliss. Ignorance causes quite a bit of strife and sometimes gets people killed. It isn't bliss.

People who think they have to be co-workers with God and labor in order to retain their salvation will find they were wrong at that judgment seat of God.

I don't work to keep the gift my wife gifted me on my birthday. I don't labor to retain it as my property that she freely chose and gave me in a beautifully wrapped presentment.
That's a metaphor to describe the same thing as the free gift and calling of God to salvation. Jesus did all the work. All we have to do is believe, have faith. The work we do when we've been saved is not to keep ourselves that way. The work we do of God is through God's leading us to serve his plan on earth. It isn't to labor to keep ourselves in the covenant. That denounces the price Jesus paid on the cross so as to be the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. His blood put the law under the blood.

Prior to Jesus death on the cross, the faithful who sinned worked to cleanse themselves of transgression of the law. They sacrificed the blood of beasts and foul in order to have their sins covered.
Jesus was the pure unblemished lamb that poured out his blood on the cross so that those rites would never need be done again.
When we follow the indwelling leading of God's Holy Spirit as those sealed in the covenant of eternal life and saving grace, we are doing the work the Father calls us to do for his namesake. Not to stay saved in his name.

If we could labor to gain Heaven Jesus wouldn't have died to give us eternal life.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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My perfection is in Christ. In Him there is no sin. As I enter into Him...aka put on the new man...aka put on the armour of light, I walk just as Jesus walked since I am IN Christ. The same works for every one who abides in Christ. This is the race of faith...to win Christ as Paul states. Do you understand what Paul was running after?
if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.... The apostle John.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
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Hrm.. let's see what the scripture you quoted says...



So tell me how we are saved again, if it's not through faith in Jesus Christ?
I told you what you needed to understand. You misspoke when you claimed we are required to have faith.
You don't understand what faith is or from whence it comes.
I'm not playing games with the Word. Move on.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,374
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Ignorance isn't bliss. Ignorance causes quite a bit of strife and sometimes gets people killed. It isn't bliss.

People who think they have to be co-workers with God and labor in order to retain their salvation will find they were wrong at that judgment seat of God.

I don't work to keep the gift my wife gifted me on my birthday. I don't labor to retain it as my property that she freely chose and gave me in a beautifully wrapped presentment.
That's a metaphor to describe the same thing as the free gift and calling of God to salvation. Jesus did all the work. All we have to do is believe, have faith. The work we do when we've been saved is not to keep ourselves that way. The work we do of God is through God's leading us to serve his plan on earth. It isn't to labor to keep ourselves in the covenant. That denounces the price Jesus paid on the cross so as to be the final blood sacrifice for the sins of the whole world. His blood put the law under the blood.

Prior to Jesus death on the cross, the faithful who sinned worked to cleanse themselves of transgression of the law. They sacrificed the blood of beasts and foul in order to have their sins covered.
Jesus was the pure unblemished lamb that poured out his blood on the cross so that those rites would never need be done again.
When we follow the indwelling leading of God's Holy Spirit as those sealed in the covenant of eternal life and saving grace, we are doing the work the Father calls us to do for his namesake. Not to stay saved in his name.

If we could labor to gain Heaven Jesus wouldn't have died to give us eternal life.
amen, as jesus himself, many will come to him in that day and tell him about all the amazing works they did in Jesus name, Jesus will say depart form him, for he never knew them (paraphrased)
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
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if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.... The apostle John.
Straw man argument. Also by the same apostle.....and in the same epistle...we can't sin if we know God...

Have you read the whole epistle ever or did you do a google search?

Think for just a moment...if the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin..then how much residual sin is left?

If we say we have never sinned....now that is the meaning for all HAVE sinned. But to continue to sin is NOT what John is advocating...it is the opposite. He is the hardest about not sinning. He says a born again person CANNOT sin...do I have to look it up for you...just google it.

Please try to remain honest if you want to continue to chat...
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
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if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and there is no truth in us.... The apostle John.
Context!
If we are still sinners, which means we are dead and condemned, after we are saved, then Jesus died for nothing.

The Apostles were telling those whom they were ministering to about the redemption process and salvation from sin. Many people don't know what sin is. And when they hear what it is defined as they can balk and claim they are not sinners because they sacrifice animals so as to cover their wrong doing. Remembering that the Apostles were what the temple called Apostate. And that is why Saul and others sought to kill them. Because they were in violation of the laws of God.

Others, whom would be called Gentiles, or Pagans, which were non-Jews, would never know prior to an Apostle's teaching that such a thing as sin exists. Much less what it is defined as. Which would be why an Apostle would then teach, if we think we have no sin we deceive ourselves.
The Apostles went into all the world to teach repentance and the promise of eternal life, eternal saving from the sin state, to those who unbeknownst to themselves were sinners. If they said they weren't so, they were deceiving themselves. And that is why the Good News was brought to them. To make them aware of their fallen state, their being dead in their flesh as sinners. And to awaken them to the good news the Apostle was bringing forth. That they are able to repent, be saved, be washed clean, and arise as a new creation, a new person, who is now in the anointed. In Christ, as a redeemed one.

If we are still sinners, for all that meant in Jesus day, after we accept Christ through faith, then the message of Salvation and the process to arrive there is a lie.

God accounted our sins against us when we were dead in our flesh. He does not do that once we repent and are washed clean of them.
Thinking we are still sinners when saved is to revoke that. It is to insist God will have more sins to tally, and we are still dead as sinners are dead. And that's not the case for the sons and daughters of God.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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Straw man argument. Also by the same apostle.....and in the same epistle...we can't sin if we know God...

Have you read the whole epistle ever or did you do a google search?

Think for just a moment...if the blood of Christ cleanses us from ALL sin..then how much residual sin is left?

If we say we have never sinned....now that is the meaning for all HAVE sinned. But to continue to sin is NOT what John is advocating...it is the opposite. He is the hardest about not sinning. He says a born again person CANNOT sin...do I have to look it up for you...just google it.

Please try to remain honest if you want to continue to chat...
no straw man at all. John said if we (he included himself) say we have no (the word never is not there) the verb is in the present active, meaning that if we say are are presently not sinning is the literal defenition)

the passage you are quoting refers to habitual sin, or living in sin. John did not contradict himself. like your trying to make him do.

If you think your sinless (as in you personally can go 24/7 365 dsyd a year and not commit any sin. your deceived Those are johns words not mine.

Google? I do not use google or encyclopedias like wikepedia to get my bible knowledge, I actually have logos bible software with greek/english bibles, and about every recourse you would ever need,

please try to be honest and open minded if you want to chat.
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,374
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Context!
If we are still sinners, which means we are dead and condemned, after we are saved, then Jesus died for nothing.

The Apostles were telling those whom they were ministering to about the redemption process and salvation from sin. Many people don't know what sin is. And when they hear what it is defined as they can balk and claim they are not sinners because they sacrifice animals so as to cover their wrong doing. Remembering that the Apostles were what the temple called Apostate. And that is why Saul and others sought to kill them. Because they were in violation of the laws of God.

Others, whom would be called Gentiles, or Pagans, which were non-Jews, would never know prior to an Apostle's teaching that such a thing as sin exists. Much less what it is defined as. Which would be why an Apostle would then teach, if we think we have no sin we deceive ourselves.
The Apostles went into all the world to teach repentance and the promise of eternal life, eternal saving from the sin state, to those who unbeknownst to themselves were sinners. If they said they weren't so, they were deceiving themselves. And that is why the Good News was brought to them. To make them aware of their fallen state, their being dead in their flesh as sinners. And to awaken them to the good news the Apostle was bringing forth. That they are able to repent, be saved, be washed clean, and arise as a new creation, a new person, who is now in the anointed. In Christ, as a redeemed one.

If we are still sinners, for all that meant in Jesus day, after we accept Christ through faith, then the message of Salvation and the process to arrive there is a lie.

God accounted our sins against us when we were dead in our flesh. He does not do that once we repent and are washed clean of them.
Thinking we are still sinners when saved is to revoke that. It is to insist God will have more sins to tally, and we are still dead as sinners are dead. And that's not the case for the sons and daughters of God.
so you too are sinless?

You can go 24/7 without committing one sin?

sorry, I do not believe it.

A babe in christ does not even know what many sins are, how can they be sinless?

I am not seen as a sinner, any more than abraham was the moment he was declared righteous, yet he commited many sins after that, as did David after God called him a man after his own heart.

we need to be careful, living in sin is not the same as failing to obey god 24/7
 
Oct 31, 2015
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You're avowing the law and works to be saved? To receive the reward promised as eternal life?

We are saved by grace through faith.


No one can be saved, born again; regenerated by works.



4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Scripture Keys:

  • not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

  • that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Please take notice of this very important statement:


  • we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life


An heir has the hope of inheriting something, which in this case, is eternal life.



Jesus said it this way -


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


Eternal life is what we who have faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, hope for.


Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.


Now we have faith in Christ for salvation, which by default means we don't actually have it, but have the substance of the salvation we hope for.



Paul explains -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


  • why does one still hope for what he sees

The answer is you don't hope any longer for what you see, have obtained.

By now we do hope for the salvation we have through faith, and we eagerly wait for it, with perseverance.



Hebrews says it this way -


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28


  • He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.



Peter explains it this way -


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9


  • Though now you do not see Him, yet believing,
  • receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



The end result of faith for something, is receiving that thing you are hoping for.


Which is why in the case for faith for salvation, our faith is worth more than gold, because it is the thing that will eventually result in us receiving the salvation we hope for.






JPT
 
C

claysmithr

Guest
I told you what you needed to understand. You misspoke when you claimed we are required to have faith.
You don't understand what faith is or from whence it comes.
I'm not playing games with the Word. Move on.
You made the claim that we don't need faith in Christ, which I am refuting, and which the entire bible refutes!

Good day.
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
no straw man at all. John said if we (he included himself) say we have no (the word never is not there) the verb is in the present active, meaning that if we say are are presently not sinning is the literal defenition)

the passage you are quoting refers to habitual sin, or living in sin. John did not contradict himself. like your trying to make him do.

If you think your sinless (as in you personally can go 24/7 365 dsyd a year and not commit any sin. your deceived Those are johns words not mine.

Google? I do not use google or encyclopedias like wikepedia to get my bible knowledge, I actually have logos bible software with greek/english bibles, and about every recourse you would ever need,

please try to be honest and open minded if you want to chat.
So what was John's sin while he was writing the epistle...?

What does this mean...also from John

1 John3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God

And which sin reamins after ALL sin has been cleansed??? You ignored this question of course..
 
Mar 14, 2011
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And how do we obtain this grace?
God offers it to everyone.

the fact a person lives for 80 years and never even recieves christ is based on Gods Grace, God could have killed him at birth or any time after his grew up because of his disobedience. But god showed great mercy
 
C

claysmithr

Guest
God offers it to everyone.

the fact a person lives for 80 years and never even recieves christ is based on Gods Grace, God could have killed him at birth or any time after his grew up because of his disobedience. But god showed great mercy
Your own quote said grace through faith.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
107
28
amen, as jesus himself, many will come to him in that day and tell him about all the amazing works they did in Jesus name, Jesus will say depart form him, for he never knew them (paraphrased)
I'd love to know what denominations, pastors, churches, out there are teaching some of the stuff I read people espousing here as what God's word actually says. When it does no such thing.
Like for instance: We have to labor in order to remain saved. And even then we'll only find out if we did achieve that goal once we're dead. And standing before God who will let us know if we passed or failed.
That faith is a requirement to remain saved. The parable of the Prodigal Son puts that to rest. Because that kind of teaching omits God's grace from the picture entirely. And it insinuates that backsliders, those who fall from faith for whatever reason, are then right back to square one as a damned dead sinner. Which isn't true.

Lots of false teaching in the world. And those who follow that then share it on forums where the scriptures are under discussion. And that then leads to conflict and confusion. Imagine someone who's looking to see what Christians in community are like without entering a church. And so they seek and find an Internet website so as to take a look.
What are they learning then?
The Bible is a bound book containing God's inspired words. It isn't a sheaf of paper with a scripture or two written down so as to minister with just that. But that's what happens with cutting verses out of context.

When we are in Christ we and our life is led by the Holy Spirit.
Romans 8 Expanded Version
1. So now, those who are in Christ Jesus are not ·judged guilty[a] [condemned; punished for their sins]. 2 [L For]·Through [or In] Christ Jesus the ·law [principle; or power] of the Spirit that brings life set you[b] free from the ·law [principle; or power] that brings sin and death. 3 The law [C of Moses] was without power, because the law was made weak by our ·sinful selves [sinful nature; T flesh]. But God did what the law could not do. He sent his own Son to earth ·with the same human life that others use for sin [or in a body like ours, prone to sin; L in the likeness of sinful flesh]. By sending his Son ·to be an offering for sin [L concerning sin], God ·used a human life to destroy sin [L condemned sin in the flesh]. 4 He did this so that ·we could be the kind of people that the law demands that we be [L the law’s righteous/just requirements would be fulfilled in us]. Now we do not ·live [walk; C life’s journey] following our ·sinful selves [sinful nature; T flesh], but following the Spirit.



Commentary Romans 8:1-39 . CONCLUSION OF THE WHOLE ARGUMENT--THE GLORIOUS COMPLETENESS OF THEM THAT ARE IN CHRIST JESUS.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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So what was John's sin while he was writing the epistle...?
I was not there, I do not know what john did on a day to day basis. and I am not his judge, I can just repeat what he said

What does this mean...also from John

1 John3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
the verb is in the active form, It means he is not actively living in sin, (ie, not living as the world does) If he meant he could never sin again it would be in the perfect form, not active.

Paul called himself the greatest sinner, Long after he came to Christ, He also said he continued to run the race. why would he rn a race if he was perfect? he would have already arrived
 
Mar 14, 2011
76,374
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Your own quote said grace through faith.
yep, and what did Jesus say in John 6, where does our faith come from? Our own work or Gods?

John 6: 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
 

Latour

Active member
Jun 11, 2018
437
255
43
I was not there, I do not know what john did on a day to day basis. and I am not his judge, I can just repeat what he said



the verb is in the active form, It means he is not actively living in sin, (ie, not living as the world does) If he meant he could never sin again it would be in the perfect form, not active.

Paul called himself the greatest sinner, Long after he came to Christ, He also said he continued to run the race. why would he rn a race if he was perfect? he would have already arrived

It says...cannot sin...read again. not possible... in Greek.
 

SaintMichaels

Active member
Jun 6, 2018
156
107
28
We are saved by grace through faith.


No one can be saved, born again; regenerated by works.



4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. Titus 3:4-7


Scripture Keys:

  • not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

  • that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.


Please take notice of this very important statement:


  • we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life


An heir has the hope of inheriting something, which in this case, is eternal life.



Jesus said it this way -


And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or lands, for My name’s sake, shall receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life. Matthew 19:29


Eternal life is what we who have faith in Christ Jesus our Lord, hope for.


Faith is the substance of the thing you are hoping for.


Now we have faith in Christ for salvation, which by default means we don't actually have it, but have the substance of the salvation we hope for.



Paul explains -

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance. Romans 8:24-25


  • why does one still hope for what he sees

The answer is you don't hope any longer for what you see, have obtained.

By now we do hope for the salvation we have through faith, and we eagerly wait for it, with perseverance.



Hebrews says it this way -


And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28


  • He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.



Peter explains it this way -


6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1;6-9


  • Though now you do not see Him, yet believing,
  • receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



The end result of faith for something, is receiving that thing you are hoping for.


Which is why in the case for faith for salvation, our faith is worth more than gold, because it is the thing that will eventually result in us receiving the salvation we hope for.






JPT
Good luck with that.